Where's power at these days?

FrankGrimes

So I've been out of cycling for 6 months due to having zero free time due to crazy working hours and all free time being taken up with a college course, but am now looking to get back into it.

Dusted down the Tacx Fortius turbo trainer and gave Alpe D'Huez a lash on it the other day. Obviously standard has fallen off where it was but twas enjoyable nonetheless.

I won't have much time to be out doing lengthy cycles on the roads, so training plan will largely have to focus on intense 1 hour sessions on it during the week and maybe 2-3 hour sessions at the weekend. Might get out for a +100km spin once a month or so for the next couple of months, but unrealistic to think I have any more free time than that. Despite that, I'd still plan on doing ROK, Sean Kelly tour and a few others possibly, though I expect to take longer this year than last.

Wanted to see if there's been any developments in power meters in the 6 months I've been away as I know there was talk of new product offerings a while back. I rented a Cycleops Pro+ last summer and felt I got great benefits from it, so I'm toying with the idea of getting one. Not interested in the views on how beneficial they are or are not in a given timeframe, I felt it helped me and that's why I'm interested in it.

I'd be regarding it as a longer term investment as I won't always be this busy so I'll have more time to get the benefit of it in the future. But I also don't want to put money into a solution that's going to be replaced by a better option in the next 6 months.

So, is Cycleops still the most feasible mainstream option or are there newer decent alternatives?

Lumen

Yay, Franks back!

Basically the choices are still Powertap hub (expensive), Quarq (very expensive) or SRM (extremely expensive).

The pros/cons of hub vs crank are fairly obvious from a practical perspective, depending on how many bikes/wheelsets you have or want.

The Powertap is by far the most economical option, but like all wheels the bearings need to be replaced from time to time, and if you bust a wheel you'll be without power stats until you get it fixed.

Between SRM and Quarq the main differences are:

SRM: heavier, more of a known quantity, send it to Germany for battery changes or warranty issues.

Quarq: lighter, fairly new to the market, user replaceable battery (in seconds, apparently), send it to the US for warranty issues or factory recalibration.

There are different flavours of crank with each.

Pedal based alternatives (Metrigear and Brim Brothers) are still not ready.

FWIW my new Quarg Saturn (SRAM S975) shipped today from the UK. I'll post some thoughts once I have it installed and tested out a few times.

blorg

I am waiting for one of the pedal or cleat systems.

Might try a rental Powertap in the meantime.

Lumen

If you have compatible bottom brackets...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibycOXD-Mw0

FrankGrimes

Thanks for that Lumen....and though I want to be back I fear it'll only be a percentage of the involvement I had in cycling last year, but some is better than none!

So basically it seems nothing has changed in the last 6 months. blorg, you're a patient man to be hanging on for those new systems....hope the patience pays off when they finally arrive.

Lumen, how much did that yoke set you back? I'm now leaning towards not bothering with it for now to be honest...

Lumen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Lumen, how much did that yoke set you back? I'm now leaning towards not bothering with it for now to be honest...

Prices on cyclepowermeters.com.

If I were you I'd rent another Powertap for now. Less stress if someone else owns it!

Murph100

... and no handlebars

Lumen wrote: »

If you have compatible bottom brackets...

blorg

@Lumen- you wouldn't be interested in renting your PT wheel when your new crank arrives by any chance? I'd be happy to give you the money rather than the rental people. IIRC you didn't want to sell it entirely. (Would also be interested in buying if you were.)

tunney

blorg wrote: »

I am waiting for one of the pedal or cleat systems.

Might try a rental Powertap in the meantime.

The metrigear looks like it should be good but they seem to have some issues to still over come. The Brimbrothers, no real news on that one. Would be great if one or either of them came to fruitition.

SRM PCVII looks the dogs...........

E@gle.

Lumen wrote: »

If you have compatible bottom brackets...

its a pity his TT bike didnt have any bars

Murph100

+ we didn't get to hear the lovely creaking BB from slapping it on like that

E@gle. wrote: »

its a pity his TT bike didnt have any bars

blorg

Murph100 wrote: »

+ we didn't get to hear the lovely creaking BB from slapping it on like that

I've not done SRAM but I've swapped Shimano Hollowtech cranks and it is a pretty simple operation, 1m06s is quick but not unbelievable by any means. There isn't a whole lot you can do wrong.

From a look at the Park Tool website, the SRAM system looks even simpler, there isn't any bearing preload bit, you literally just slap the crank on and "Tighten left arm to 360 to 420 inch-pounds." I note he was using a Park torque wrench in the video too.

Murph100

I'm probably paranoid from the amount of guys on WW who are having tons of problems with BB noise, mostly from Campags on BB30 to be fair.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

@Lumen- you wouldn't be interested in renting your PT wheel when your new crank arrives by any chance? I'd be happy to give you the money rather than the rental people.

I thought about this last night, maybe just renting it out to boardsies in some sort of cycle so people could do power tests once a month or whatever without committing to an ongoing rental.

But I think it's just easier to sell. Which I won't be ready to do until I've properly evaluated the Quarq (esp crank swapping) and got used to a standard double.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

SRM PCVII looks the dogs...........

Does it have any features an Edge 500 doesn't? And no GPS, presumably, which for me is a showstopper for the Joule.

short circuit

Why is ibike not considered in the mix at all?
http://www.ibikesports.com/

Seems to be cheaper than most and easily transferable between bikes ... The only -ve thing seems to be that it will be 1 more computer on the handle bars.

I know people talk about accuracy ... but as long as its always out by a certain %, I don't see a problem ... you could work with that. And persumably, its no different on the powertab when you change bearings or don't recalibrate ... or the cranks if you crash I am assuming.

Diarmuid

short circuit wrote: »

I know people talk about accuracy ... but as long as its always out by a certain %,

Well that's the problem. It MAY be out by up to 10% (or some figure like that) that does not mean it always is out by 10%. Considering how tight some training zones are, it can be substantial.As with lots of things it's a trade off with the price.

And if you do go down the power route, check out GoldenCheetah (from svn). A really cool piece of software. The features that have been added over the past 6 months are amazing. (estimating your aero efficiency automatically etc..)

Lumen

short circuit wrote: »

Why is ibike not considered in the mix at all?
http://www.ibikesports.com/

Seems to be cheaper than most and easily transferable between bikes ... The only -ve thing seems to be that it will be 1 more computer on the handle bars.

I know people talk about accuracy ... but as long as its always out by a certain %, I don't see a problem ... you could work with that. And persumably, its no different on the powertab when you change bearings or don't recalibrate ... or the cranks if you crash I am assuming.

The review indicates single digit differences in wattage (compared to powertap) in most conditions, which seems decently accurate, much better than measuring speed anyway.

How much is it? The iBike store indicates €300 + shipping ($40?) for the iSport Wireless GT, which will work out over €300 with VAT and duty. That's half a powertap. Maybe the cheaper (non-GT) version hits the sweet spot for people who (for sensible reasons) want to avoid Garmins.

short circuit

Diarmuid wrote: »

Well that's the problem. It MAY be out by up to 10% (or some figure like that) that does not mean it always is out by 10%. Considering how tight some training zones are, it can be substantial.As with lots of things it's a trade off with the price.

And if you do go down the power route, check out GoldenCheetah (from svn). A really cool piece of software. The features that have been added over the past 6 months are amazing. (estimating your aero efficiency automatically etc..)

But isn't that the same with all powermeters ... everyone of them MAY be inaccurate .. you just don't know ... OK given that they may be less than 10% ... Polar had one too didn't they measuring chain deflection over the chain stays which was supposedly even worse.

Currently riding a Crosscheck with panniers, full mudguards and 37mm tyres ... powermeter is not exactly the top of my purchasing list right now ...

Diarmuid

Lumen wrote: »

How much is it? The iBike store indicates €300 + shipping ($40?) for the iSport Wireless GT, which will work out over €300 with VAT and duty.

Big disadvantage of iSport :
Data not downloadable

Lumen

short circuit wrote: »

But isn't that the same with all powermeters ... everyone of them MAY be inaccurate .. you just don't know ...

Yes, but proper powermeters are both more accurate and (more importantly) very consistent, which is what you want.

The iBike changes accuracy depending on body position.

Diarmuid

short circuit wrote: »

But isn't that the same with all powermeters ... everyone of them MAY be inaccurate .. you just don't know ... OK given that they may be less than 10% ...

Sure. But accuracy is not the only reason I'd prefer a powertap

short circuit

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, but proper powermeters are both more accurate and (more importantly) very consistent, which is what you want.

The iBike changes accuracy depending on body position.

Hey .. if movies have shown me something, its that if a dial doesn't show what you like the first time, keep tapping it till it shows you what you want to see but concede the point on body position ... but as they say, the overall accuracy is still pretty good.

And for the WW, surely the low weight compared to rotational mass of the others is attractive.

ps: I have no relationship with iBike whatsoever just bored on a Friday morning.

tunney

short circuit wrote: »

Why is ibike not considered in the mix at all?
http://www.ibikesports.com/

Seems to be cheaper than most and easily transferable between bikes ... The only -ve thing seems to be that it will be 1 more computer on the handle bars.

Discussion was power meters.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

The review indicates single digit differences in wattage (compared to powertap) in most conditions, which seems decently accurate, much better than measuring speed anyway.

How much is it? The iBike store indicates €300 + shipping ($40?) for the iSport Wireless GT, which will work out over €300 with VAT and duty. That's half a powertap. Maybe the cheaper (non-GT) version hits the sweet spot for people who (for sensible reasons) want to avoid Garmins.

The review on their site You really do fall for all the manufacturers claims Are the bad reviews for the iBike all due to another conspiracy against a cheap but functionally better power meter?

tunney

short circuit wrote: »

But isn't that the same with all powermeters ... everyone of them MAY be inaccurate .. you just don't know ... OK given that they may be less than 10% ... Polar had one too didn't they measuring chain deflection over the chain stays which was supposedly even worse.

Currently riding a Crosscheck with panniers, full mudguards and 37mm tyres ... powermeter is not exactly the top of my purchasing list right now ...

I recently was playing with a PT and SRM and a CT.

Once all three were calibrated - which did involve heavy heavy weights and accuracy to 3grams (30kg weights) - then the PT and CT were exactly the same readings and the SRM was off by a % which is consistent with the different locations that power is measured.

If calibrated then quality PMs will give very very very accuracy numbers.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

The review on their site You really do fall for all the manufacturers claims Are the bad reviews for the iBike all due to another conspiracy against a cheap but functionally better power meter?

Feel free to find and link to the bad reviews. I couldn't be bothered, I don't want one anyway.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

Feel free to find and link to the bad reviews. I couldn't be bothered, I don't want one anyway.

Well actually they aren't bad reviews per se. It comes out well "for what it is" but its the "for what it is" is the important bit!

blorg

My general impression of the iBike from user reviews on forums was that it was frustrating and most seemed to eventually give up and move to a proper power meter. The fact that body position is so critical to air resistance, which is the major restrictive force, and it can't take that into account AT ALL, would be a deal breaker for me. In a road race you are constantly changing position so the numbers would be completely off. In a TT I could see it being more usable if you a position worked out and stuck to it.

Again, I don't have one, this was just my impression.

Ryaner

@Lumen, please do post up a review of the quarg when you get more time in it. Be interested in seeing how it works out.

@Frank, I've been using PowerTaps since late last year. Last week I've been without as my wheel on my winter bike is getting rebuilt. Not having the figures is kind of different, especially into a headwind. I do find it great to look back over the rides and see where I started getting tired or how hard I actually pushed on hills.

FrankGrimes

Ryaner wrote: »

@Lumen, please do post up a review of the quarg when you get more time in it. Be interested in seeing how it works out.

@Frank, I've been using PowerTaps since late last year. Last week I've been without as my wheel on my winter bike is getting rebuilt. Not having the figures is kind of different, especially into a headwind. I do find it great to look back over the rides and see where I started getting tired or how hard I actually pushed on hills.

Yeh thanks for that Ryaner, am really in two minds on it. No doubt about its usefulness - found it really helped me keep effort levels up when I had it, particularly on rolling terrain. But I'd probably need to sell my Garmin 305 Edge and get a 705 so I'd be looking at over €1100 in total and that's a fair old chunk of change. Am leaning towards doing withouth.

FrankGrimes

Am sure I'll flip-flop on this a few more times before actually making a decision....

Am now leaning towards going for it mainly as I reckon it's one of the best ways of making sure I get the most out of the turbo sessions and if those are going to be a major part of my training, I need to get good results from them. I know myself and how I train best and have objective data like power to track against really helped me last summer so I do see benefits in it. Very expensive of course but I do plan on doing at least a few events every year so it should be around to get a good return on for a good while.

Pain in the ass though would be using it on the turbo and then having to swap out the turbo tyre for a road tyre whenever I wanted to use it on the road but that's not exactly a showstopper.

So, if I do take the plunge, are Cycle Power Meters the best crowd to go with or are there better value options? I'd be going for the Cycleops Pro wireless and looking to get a Garmin Edge 705 too so don't need the computer. Mavic Open Pro wheel would be fine.

Is there generally a good market on here for second-hand Garmin Edg 305 units with HRM and cadence?

Diarmuid

Rent for 3 months, low risk and you can see if it's for you

Lumen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Pain in the ass though would be using it on the turbo and then having to swap out the turbo tyre for a road tyre whenever I wanted to use it on the road but that's not exactly a showstopper.

I do it all the time. It's never stopped me from doing a turbo session. If I'm too lazy to change the tyre I'm too lazy to go on the turbo.

Generally I tend to swap only once a week (before and after the weekend) since I have no need for power stats out on the road mid-week. Once the weather gets good enough to be out on weekday evenings (and I shake this f'ing tonsillitis) I'll probably not bother with the turbo at all.

The Garmin Edge 500 is probably the best computer for power right now, and much cheaper than the 705 if you don't need a map on screen.

In addition to cyclepowermeters, also check out wheelsmith.co.uk for powertap wheels.

FrankGrimes

Diarmuid wrote: »

Rent for 3 months, low risk and you can see if it's for you

Thanks, I did rent last summer and found the tool very useful so was thinking of purchasing it to have for the longer term...

Yeh Lumen I agree with you on the tyre changing, should be the least of the worries and generally is. Only reason I mentioned it is cos the trainer tyre was a bitch to get onto the wheel, no doubt I'd learn the knack for that pretty quickly.

One of my favourite features on the 305 Edge is when I have a course route mapped out on it and I can see the terrain that's coming up - i.e. I can see the gradient of the climb up ahead, how far I am from the top etc. and I can then use that to judge how hard I should be pushing at that point. Does the 500 have that, it's a deal-breaker if not?

Are there other advantages of the 500 over the 705 or is it just price - i.e. is the 500 better at power than the 705 is?

Beasty

Frank

You have the Tacx VR trainer don't you? This has a power measurement. I was unsure over its accuracy myself, but calibrated it with my PowerTap a few weeks ago. Although there was a bit of a time lag on the Tacx power measurement, I was pleasantly surprised that the readings did converge after a few minutes. The Tacx remained a few percentage points lower, but I am now reassured that it provides a pretty consistent and reasonably accurate measure. Once you do calibrate it in this way, you should hopefully avoid any need to continually change over the Powertap wheel

In terms of the Garmins, you get a much larger screen with the 705, and can use the mapping features. The 500 is newer, and hopefully will turn out more reliable (although I think there have been one or two problems reported already). You can also keep more readings on the go with the 500 (3 pages with up to 8 readings on each page), although ultimately you can access pretty much the same information on both systems (the 500 has a vertical speed as well as a temperature function, which are not on the 705)

Lumen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

One of my favourite features on the 305 Edge is when I have a course route mapped out on it and I can see the terrain that's coming up - i.e. I can see the gradient of the climb up ahead, how far I am from the top etc. and I can then use that to judge how hard I should be pushing at that point. Does the 500 have that, it's a deal-breaker if not?

Not sure, but it'll probably me be mentioned somewhere on here.

FrankGrimes

Good man Beasty, had totally overlooked the power feature on the Tacx - probably as I had written it off as totally inaccurate. It just seemed to fluctuate quite wildly but admittedly I only paid it attention for a short while before dismissing it and focusing on the PowerTap.

I can get access to a loan of a Power Tap to use for calibrating against. Was there any particular knack to calibrating it or just a simple case of 'if PowerTap says 100w and Tacx says 110w, reduce Tacx PowerFactor by 10%'? Even if it's within 20% accuracy or so, as long as it's consistent, it might well suit my needs for the time being.

Beasty

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Good man Beasty, had totally overlooked the power feature on the Tacx - probably as I had written it off as totally inaccurate. It just seemed to fluctuate quite wildly but admittedly I only paid it attention for a short while before dismissing it and focusing on the PowerTap.

I can get access to a loan of a Power Tap to use for calibrating against. Was there any particular knack to calibrating it or just a simple case of 'if PowerTap says 100w and Tacx says 110w, reduce Tacx PowerFactor by 10%'? Even if it's within 20% accuracy or so, as long as it's consistent, it might well suit my needs for the time being.

I put a bit about it on the training log here

It seems to me that the Tacx does a bit more averaging initially, but once it is up to speed the readings are remarkably similar. The Garmin gives me instant, 3s or 30s moving average readings from the Powertap. I think I ran the 3s option when comparing the two systems. I certainly find the instant reading goes all over the place.

In my case the Tacx was recording about 3-5% less than the Powertap, and assuming a reasonable session (in terms of time on the turbo), I think it is just a matter of adjusting by the relevant percentage.

However, I would point out that I find it ver difficult to get anywhere near my road power output on the turbo. My maximum is way off - perhaps 30% down on the tubo, although this may be largely down to averaging on the turbo.

The average is down also - I can (could!) churn out an average of 250w+ for well over an hour on the road, but will struggle to get much above 200w on the turbo over a similar period. The important thing is that you compare like for like - turbo sessions with turbo sessions, and road sessions with road sessions.

FrankGrimes

Finally got out for a proper spin last weekend, first of this spring and I sufferred going up Kippure but it got the bug going again and it looks like I've come through the busiest period of the year for me in work and my studies so I'm hoping to have time available to start getting a decent amount of spins in for the summer.

Obviously way off the pace of where I was last summer and the hectic lifestyle has the weight up at 93kg - I've gotten back on the boxing diet this week and will target 87kg over the next 2 months, maybe a little lower after that.

Have decided to make the plunge and go for the Powertap Pro+ for the simple reason that I know exactly how I'm motivated and having an objective reading showing how far off my previous form my current power output is a sure way to get me motivated to push on.

Going to get it built into wheel with IRD Cadence Aero 30mm rims and will go for the Garmin 705. Not sure what number of spokes to get on the wheel to support my weight. Have PlanetX Model B wheels on my bike at the moment and they've been perfectly fine and haven't buckled. Would 28 spokes be the right setup for me?

They don't have 28h in stock at the moment, they do have 24h and 32h but could have 28h in 2 weeks. I'm not overly concerned with a few grams of weight difference and making sure they're solid enough for Irish roads it the priority, but naturally don't want to overkill either.

Beasty

I went for 32 spokes, but then I'm a fat so & so! My view was given the state of the roads, the stronger the better. With weight (excluding bike) of 90kg+, after 8 months and getting on for 6,000 km (with plenty of pothole encounters) and the wheel is still almost true (less than 1mm movement)

Diarmuid

I ordered the same rims on the Elite+. Derek @ wheelsmith recommended 20 + 24 for me (61kgs). Hope to get them next week

Lumen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Going to get it built into wheel with IRD Cadence Aero 30mm rims and will go for the Garmin 705. Not sure what number of spokes to get on the wheel to support my weight. Have PlanetX Model B wheels on my bike at the moment and they've been perfectly fine and haven't buckled. Would 28 spokes be the right setup for me?

They don't have 28h in stock at the moment, they do have 24h and 32h but could have 28h in 2 weeks. I'm not overly concerned with a few grams of weight difference and making sure they're solid enough for Irish roads it the priority, but naturally don't want to overkill either.

My Powertap is 32h, but I think the Open Pro rim likes a decent spoke count.

The wheelbuilder should advise the right number of spokes for the intended use based on your weight, but as a rule of thumb if you have the same number front and back that means either too many on the front or too few on the back. The rear wheel not only has about 50% more weight to deal with, it also has to deal with the torque from your legs.

Derek told me before that those Aero rims build a very strong wheel. 20/24 is a normal spoke count for those rims compared to 28/32 for the Cadence ones.

The Powertap will be your only rear wheel - if it goes out of true you're power data-less until you get it fixed. For this reason, if they have 32h in stock I'd probably go with that, but as I said check with the wheelbuilder who has experience of those rims.

edit: my Powertap is now for sale. I've no idea how the price/weight/strength compares to what you're planning to order, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

Ryaner

Lumen wrote: »

The Powertap will be your only rear wheel - if it goes out of true you're power data-less until you get it fixed. For this reason, if they have 32h in stock I'd probably go with that, but as I said check with the wheelbuilder who has experience of those rims.

You could always buy two :eek:

Beasty

Ryaner wrote: »

You could always buy two :eek:

Agreed - it's always worth having a spare;)