Just saw someone diesel a petrol

cormie

Pulled into a garage to philip and saw the chap in front of me let out a roar and throw his fuel cap across the garage in angst. I saw the black nozzle coming out of a honda civic I think it was so had a feeling what happened. Was speaking to the chap at the counter asking what usually happens and he said oh he only put in 5eur worth, if it's less than 8litres it's ok to fill the rest up with petrol.

I do remember being told it's good to put a spray of petrol in a diesel car (which I think was dismissed on this forum :P) but what about the other way around?

L1011

A diesel pump shouldn't fit in to a modern petrol's filler (they're wider).

If not much has been put in and the rest filled up with petrol, the car should run like ****e until that tank's used, doubt there'd be lasting engine damage on an older one. But it'd still make more sense to drain it and refill it...

galwaydude18

Utter misery!

colm_mcm

Jap import tanks don't have the smaller opening like European ones do.

Kashkai

How de fcuk does anyone make this mistake?

A female friend of mine did this a few years ago when she filled her polo with diesel which subsequently broke down a few hundred metres from the garage. Instead of admitting her mistake, she tried to sue the garage stating that they had put diesel into their underground petrol tanks. However she was soon kicked in the a$$ when the garages CCTV showed that she had used the diesel nozzle.

ShadowHearth

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

How de fcuk does anyone make this mistake?

A female friend of mine did this a few years ago when she filled her polo with diesel which subsequently broke down a few hundred metres from the garage. Instead of admitting her mistake, she tried to sue the garage stating that they had put diesel into their underground petrol tanks. However she was soon kicked in the a$$ when the garages CCTV showed that she had used the diesel nozzle.

mmmmm justice.... i love those sue freaks getting slaped.


i actually allways do check which pump am i using, its easy to make a mistake if your minds is just a bit away, specially after stressfull day at work etc...

fryup

cormie wrote: »

Pulled into a garage to do philip

:eek:

Quazzie

MYOB wrote: »

A diesel pump shouldn't fit in to a modern petrol's filler (they're wider).

If not much has been put in and the rest filled up with petrol, the car should run like ****e until that tank's used, doubt there'd be lasting engine damage on an older one. But it'd still make more sense to drain it and refill it...

Not strictly true. There are two immediate impacts of diesel mixed with petrol. The octane level is lowered and fuel vaporization is reduced. The lowered octane level may cause the engine to knock. Some engines have knock sensors and the electronic controls will adjust the timing and other engine conditions to try to eradicate the knock. If the knock remains significant it can damage the engine by causing metal fatigue eventually leading to failure of critical parts like pistons, connecting rods, heads. Some very old engines can accomodate lower octane, but the ones found in recent cars are normally running close to the knock threashold. The reduced volotitility caused by the added diesel will cause hard starting and will probably result in some unburnt hydrocarbons remaining in the exhaust gas from the engine; these may be reacted in the catalytic convertor causing it to overheat. A modern electronic controlled emission system controls the oxygen level in the exhaust gas going to the convertor so the significant increase in hydrocarbons with controlled oxygen may save the convertor, but will likely result in unburnt hydrocarbons exiting the exhaust. This will result in a smell and air pollution.

So if enough diesel is added to produce any of these problems it is a not a good situation. I would consider draining and replacing the fuel or if its only a small bit, diluting it with fresh petrol to eleminate the symptons.

alias no.9

Diesel in a petrol is a big no no, as is petrol in a modern diesel. Some petrol in an older diesel (pre Common Rail or Pumpe Deuse injection) is usually ok and will clean your injectors.

Matt Simis

Come one now, you have a 60-90litre tank, you put in 5litres of Diesel. You really gonna leave the car there, get it towed, get it drained, then filled, then get it back "some time", presumably days later? Of course you will say "thats better than permanent damage", but IMO the risk of that is minuscule when dealing with small amounts. I would go as far to say if you had issues with this then your car was already borderline.

If it was me Id be putting in the same amount of E85 to kick the Octane up again, then top up with Petrol. The lubricity of the diesel will counter the lack of it in the E85 nicely and a 104octane (ie e85) shot of equal measure will easily sort the average octane level out.

Air Pollution... that shouldnt even come into it for an isolated case like these.

Quazzie

Matt Simis wrote: »

Come one now, you have a 60-90litre tank, you put in 5litres of Diesel. You really gonna leave the car there, get it towed, get it drained, then filled, then get it back some time, presumably days later? Of course you will say thats better than permanent damage but IMO the risk of that is minuscule when dealing with small amounts. I would go as far to say if you had issues with this then your car was already borderline.

i've seen first hand the damage €2.50 of Diesel can cause and I would recommend different, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

Matt Simis wrote: »

If it was me Id be putting in the same amount of E85 to kick the Octane up again, then top up with Petrol. The lubricity of the diesel will counter the lack of it in the E85 nicely and a 104octane (ie e85) shot of equal measure will easily sort the average octane level out.

Thats incredibly simplistic and could possibly cause more problems that it prevents.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Air Pollution... that shouldnt even come into it for an isolated case like these.

The air pollution and smell would be caused by continuous use after the catalytic converor is irreversibly damaged from the initial problem

JHMEG

Internal combustion engines are still very primitive and it takes a lot to kill one.

Old vid but shows how much punishment an engine can take. Kinda relevant too as it's a Civic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2BavfShtZU

Matt Simis

Quazzie wrote: »

i've seen first hand the damage €2.50 of Diesel can cause and I would recommend different, but we are all entitled to our opinion.
Thats incredibly simplistic and could possibly cause more problems that it prevents.

Well fair enough, though hard to believe a paltry EUR2.50 of diesel (ie 2.3litres, less than 4% of a 65litre tank) could cause any issue unless it was the only thing in the car. Also you said if only a "small bit" was put in you personally would just dilute it out... whats a small bit in your eyes?

Regarding putting in E85 to increase Octane levels, care to expand on your complete and unsubstantiated dismissal? "Simplistic" doesnt mean bad.

Bearing in mind we all put in 5% Ethanol with all Maxol "petrol" and alledegely others too and many of us here are putting in 10-30% E85 mixes in normal top up, myself for 2years. If you have an Octane problem, Ethanol is an octane booster and a fuel in its own right. An unlike diesel, it generally burns just fine in petrol engines... so whats your issue with it?

Quazzie

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well fair enough, though hard to believe a paltry EUR2.50 of diesel (ie 2.3litres, less than 4% of a 65litre tank) could cause any issue unless it was the only thing in the car. I also you said if only a "small bit" was put in you personally would just dilute it out... whats a small bit in your eyes?

There was €2.50 put in and I was in the car at the time. I said to the driver, like yourself would have, that filling the remainder of the tank with Petrol would be enough to dilute it. It was a 3.3 Dodge Caravan (Chrysler Grand Voyager) and immediately after that (the next day) it was spluttering and misfiring constantly at low revs. It needed injectors and plugs changed, but that made no real impact on it and eventually it was discovered that the engine block itself was damaged beyond repair resulting in a new engine being required. Due to it initially being an American vehicle, a new engine was shipped in from America at a total cost of €2,500 approx. So while this is probably an extreme case it can be used to highlight what can go wrong.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Regarding putting in E85 to increase Octane levels, care to expand on your complete and unsubstantiated dismissal? "Simplistic" doesnt mean bad.

Bearing in mind we all put in 5% Ethanol with all Maxol "petrol" and alledegely others too and many of us here are putting in 10-30% E85 mixes in normal top up, myself for 2years.

Because it would be extremely hard to judge how to get the correct ratio to achieve the desired octane rating. Plus there is the possible implicatins that Ethanol can have on anything rubber in the fuel line (pipes, seals etc). Adding Ethanol mix to a petrol car can just be as bad..

Matt Simis

Quazzie wrote: »

There was €2.50 put in and I was in the car at the time. I said to the driver, like yourself would have, that filling the remainder of the tank with Petrol would be enough to dilute it. It was a 3.3 Dodge Caravan (Chrysler Grand Voyager) and immediately after that (the next day) it was spluttering and misfiring constantly at low revs. It needed injectors and plugs changed, but that made no real impact on it and eventually it was discovered that the engine block itself was damaged beyond repair resulting in a new engine being required. Due to it initially being an American vehicle, a new engine was shipped in from America at a total cost of €2,500 approx. So while this is probably an extreme case it can be used to highlight what can go wrong.

Thats pretty shocking alright. Presumably the engine block was damaged from Knocking / pinging etc. Didnt it have Knock Sensors?

Quazzie wrote: »

Because it would be extremely hard to judge how to get the correct ratio to achieve the desired octane rating.

What is this "desired" Octane rating!?
If you know you have lowered average octane due to filling with diesel than anything higher is better! Too high an octane is simply wasted, too low and you get real issues. It wouldnt be possible to get very high Octane levels with a dash of e85 anyhow, but you would likely get it around the 95octane mark (ie "normal"), bearing in mind the diesel has an Octane rating of less than 25.

I have made an Excel sheet Ive been meaning to post that works out Average Octane from fuel blends, it could be easily modified to work this out too.

cpoh1

My missus put 7 euro of diesel in my DC5 at the petrol station 6 months ago, the tank was empty at the time so i toppedit up with 40 euro unleaded and drove it home. Performance was down but i drove it like a baby 40kms and then drained 3/4 of the tank via the fuel line to the injectors and filled her up again and she was perfect. Hasnt missed a beat since, power is good and compression is spot on also. Bear in mind this is a highly strung 2L n/a engine with very high compression and 220ps as standard (in my case mine was dynoed at 240).

I would recommend this method to anyone with a run of the mill petrol car in this scenario, i find it highly unlikely as Matt Simis said that ~2 litres of diesel mixed with ~40 of petrol would cause an engine to fail on its own, the engine was knackered already in that case and on the way out.

gofaster_s13

Matt Simis wrote: »

I have made an Excel sheet Ive been meaning to post that works out Average Octane from fuel blends, it could be easily modified to work this out too.

There's more to it than octane ratings, E85 has a far lower calorific value than petrol which is why you will use a lot more e85 than petrol.

The Chrysler that was damaged was more than likely coincidental as 2.50 worth of diesel in a full tank of petrol is very very unlikely to do damage(petrol tankers supplying filling stations will always have some varying amount of product cross contamination)
We very regularly see dieseled petrols and vice versa in the garage and not one has done any long term damage other than having to drain the tank(including a Chrysler Voyager) even though some of the vehicles have been wrongly fuelled multiple times.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

How de fcuk does anyone make this mistake?

As far as I can tell it's quite easy. My mum did this before when we were in the north driving home from Donegal. We'd been driving all day and were tired and after a min or two my mum realised her mistake in and got help. Eventually a customer rang a mechanic friend of his who said to just fill it up with pertrol and it shouls be ok. Which it was. We did finally get home after all the drama.

JHMEG

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

There's more to it than octane ratings,

That is true

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

E85 has a far lower calorific value than petrol which is why you will use a lot more e85 than petrol.

That is not necessarily. We have discussed it on another thread but some of us use up to 30% E85 and see no drop in economy.

gofaster_s13

JHMEG wrote: »

That is not necessarily. We have discussed it on another thread but some of us use up to 30% E85 and see no drop in economy.

Its an accepted fact that in terms of MPG 1 gallon of E85 is equivalent to .7 gallons of regular petrol(E85 has around 60% the calorific value of petrol and needs an afr of about 9.8 in cmparison to petrols afr of 14.7). So whether or not you "see" a difference in economy or not(affected by things such as driving style, tempreture etc) the fact of the matter is you will use more E85.

metzengerstein

i had the unfortunate experience of doing this to my car ..i nearly cried.
jap car and it doesnt have the small openning ,anywho very very half asleep one morn goin to work i went to get the petrol not even looking at the nozzles proper, in went the diesel i got as far as the exit from the garage and it cut out i didnt realise what had happned until i went back to check what pump id used ..very embarrsing, anyway got it towed to the mecanic he drained it and burned the diesel of the spark plugs and got it goin thankfully
only positive thing is i got my tank cleaned out

and i surely learnt a lesson to open my eyes

oh and i put 40 euro worth in the car is runnig perfect to ths day still

Matt Simis

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Its an accepted fact that in terms of MPG 1 gallon of E85 is equivalent to .7 gallons of regular petrol(E85 has around 60% the calorific value of petrol and needs an afr of about 9.8 in cmparison to petrols afr of 14.7). So whether or not you "see" a difference in economy or not(affected by things such as driving style, tempreture etc) the fact of the matter is you will use more E85.

All irrelevant to this thread, its not about volume, the question was of octane rating. As JHMEG stated, if you read the other threads you would see some of us have done more than merely work out numbers on a calculator. Also E85 has a higher calorific value than pure ethanol (which your numbers seem to revolve around).

Also, why quote AFRs and such... we have wrote volumes on this very board, you arent educating us, just derailing a thread?


I stand by the statement that if you have lowered your fuels octane rating via mixing with diesel, a solution would be to boost it and a readily available and document source is e85. The "volume" you need of the fuel makes no difference.

slave1

A certain someone put a fiver of petrol into a 1.6L ford diesel so I phoned the local garage who told me to fill it up with diesel and take it for a spin, followed their instructions and did not notice anything unusual, lucky it was just a fiver I suppose
Q. How does one do something like that?
A. Female (in this instance)

r3nu4l

Just in case anyone thinks that they are 100% safe from this...even when you pick up the right pump handle, you may still get the wrong fuel :eek:

Reminds me of last year when Tesco had contaminated fuel in dozens of its filling stations!

Blitzkrieger

Question :

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

How de fcuk does anyone make this mistake?

Answer :

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

some of the vehicles have been wrongly fuelled multiple times.

People are twats.

In my college years I worked in a take away. The salt bottle was a cheap plastic yoke that you basically turn so the opening is facing up and shake. If you don't, like innumerable twats did, you end up pouring salt all over your chips. It occurred to me one day that I never did it, but it's not like I spent a whole lot of time thinking about it either. It's just something I did subconsiously - check it's the right way up before using it.

It's the same thing with at the petrol pumps. It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to check which pump is which - most people just check without even thinking about it.




I've never had to drain a petrol tank myself. Is it hard to do? Is it as simple as un-doing a bolt at the bottom of it? Not that I would suggest letting it pour out onto the road - obviously it has to be caught in some sort of container.