Should Men Join Unions - Given the Anti Men Domestic Violence Policy of the ICTU

CDfm

I often participate in threads on Gender issues (understatement).

Lots of female activists criticize blokes for not having their own organisations to tackle gender issues. Lots of men are members of Unions affiliated to Congress but thge policy of their organisations are anti-men.

http://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/domestic_violence.pdf

So my question is are you a member of a union and are you aware of its Domestic Violence policy towards you and other men.

Is there a workbased policy based on domestic violence.

Would you raise this issue with your trade union representative.

Do any of your male colleagues have domestic violence issues or family law issues and does your union offer them support?

I expect this thread will be a slowburn.

I often read here that guys expect society to change yet when it comes to an organisation they are members of ,its the obvious place to start.

Boston

Just keep banging that drum.

Stheno

Hmmm, whilst I have never been in a trade union, I do believe that they can be a trigger for societal change, and that they have also played a role in furthering womens rights in the workplace over the past 80 odd years.

Secondly, in answer to your questions:

So my question is are you a member of a union and are you aware of its Domestic Violence policy towards you and other men. No I am not in a union and am female.

Is there a workbased policy based on domestic violence.No there is not, but in a situation where an employee came to me suffering from the consequences of domestic violence (be they male or female) they would be granted leave on a force majeure basis and offered the support of the counselling provided by a third party on behalf of the company (I've worded that wrong, it's VHI type counselling which is confidential)

Would you raise this issue with your trade union representative. N/a as I am not in a Union, but it's come up as a topic several times when I have talked to fellow managers about how we would deal with this.

Do any of your male colleagues have domestic violence issues or family law issues and does your union offer them support? Not currently, but I have previously worked with male colleagues (two) who were suffering from severe domestic violence, one of whom left his job due to the stress of what was happening in his domestic life, and one of whom took time out from work to recover. At no time were either in a union, but both companies involved were supportive, offered counselling services/leave etc to the individuals, I have to say having also been involved in/aware of domestic violence suffered by women in the same workplaces, the approach was 100% the same

Now in terms of the premise of your thread above, it seems to me that you've made a gross generalisation, and I'm going to use the quotes below to explain my viewpoint.

While there is a growing recognition that domestic violence can be directed
at men and people in same-sex relationships, such violence is still
predominantly perpetrated by men against women. This Guide, therefore,
while applicable to both sexes, deals with domestic violence from the
perspective of women who experience domestic violence at the hands of men.

The ICTU acknowledges that both people in hetero and homosexual relationships can suffer domestic violence, but that that it's still primarily perpetrated by men against women. I suspect they are using figures from the gardai in terms of cases reported, which highlights the need for men to report abuse against them, and the need for groups like Amen to get even more involved in focussing attention on the plight of men in a domestic violence situation.

Domestic violence is the use or threat of physical, emotional or sexual abuse
within all kinds of intimate relationships that cause harm or distress those
experiencing such abuse.
In addition to actual or threatened physical or sexual assault, domestic
violence includes non-physical intimidation such as persistent verbal abuse,
emotional blackmail and enforced social or financial deprivation.
Domestic violence may occur in any type of close adult relationship: within
marital or other partnerships, families or households. It happens in all
societies irrespective of gender, ethnicity, class, nationality, religion, cultural
background, disability, marital status, age or sexual orientation.

Again, the definition of domestic violence as offered by the ICTU is gender neutral, leading me to believe that their statement that domestic violence is most perpetrated to men, is based on statistics they have gathered from e.g. the gardai.

Women with disabilities may fear institutionalisation if they leave an abusive
relationship where the abuser is also the main carer.
Lesbians who experience domestic violence have reported little sympathy from
others. For lesbians with children there may be fear about the outcome of custody
hearings, making it harder for them to seek help. A woman who experiences abuse
at the hands of another woman may find it impossible to break the silence in a
society that is not supportive of sexual relationships between women.

The policy also clearly includes female on female violence, again addressing the subject as more than male on female violence.

Where to go for help
Below are details of some voluntary agencies and support services where women can seek help that will be
additional to the help, support and counselling outlined in the workplace policy.
Northern Ireland
Northern Ireland Women’s Aid Federation
24 Hour Helpline 028 9033 1818
Rape Crisis Centre
028 9024 9696
Nexus
028 9032 6803
Victim Support
028 9024 4039
Disability Action
028 9029 7880
Lesbian Line
028 9023 8668
Men’s Advisory Project
028 9024 1929
NI Council for Ethnic Minorities
028 9023 8645
The Samaritans
0845 790 9090
Citizens’ Advice Bureaux
028 9023 1120
Republic of Ireland
Women's Aid
01 8684721
Freephone Helpline 1800 341900
Dublin Rape Crisis Centre
01 6614911
Helpline: 1800 77 88 88
Mna Feasa
Cork-based Domestic Violence Project
021 421 1757
Cari Foundation
Children at Risk in Ireland
1890 924 567
Childline
1800 666 666
Gay Switchboard
872 1055
Lesbian Line
872 0460
The Samaritans
1850 60 90 90
Garda Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault Investigation Unit
01 475 5555

I've not counted the list above, but there is a fair proportion of it that is gender neutral, and indeed several that are specifically there for men.

Overall I would say that your argument is rather biased as the approach of the ICTU appears to be that whilst the stats reflect that women are prone to suffer more from domestic violence, it is rather a crime that is committed that is not gender specific, given the abundance of arguments cited above.

Also, having worked in several unionised organisations, it's actually really refreshing to see how members/shop stewards have input into policy like this if they wish to influence it, and how open the unions can be to having policy such as this challenged, I'd wonder how open they would be if Amen e.g. were to contact them to refute the prime statement that you appear to be unhappy with, i.e.

But the figures show that it is predominantly violence by men against women
– either their partners or former partners. Having abused once perpetrators
usually persist: intensifying and escalating the violence and abuse. However,
men may also be affected by domestic violence.

Also like I have previously referred to, I've had to deal with cases of men suffering from domestic violence as a manager (two, but two more than I've had to deal with of women suffering from it) and fellow managers have also had to deal with it. The biggest difficulty we have all encountered is a lack of knowledge of where to send the victims for help apart from work assisted counselling, having become aware of Amen in the last year or so, I send another person in that situation to them and they benefited enormously.

Apologies for the long post.

iptba

Here is another ICTU file that CDfm highlighted in another thread:
http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/health-and-safety/domestic-abuse/

It includes, amongst other things:

Appendix 1 – Model Policy on Domestic Abuse Against Women

I have read neither document from cover to cover but think if they want to have specific sections on domestic abuse against women (they also have at least one in the first document "The effects of domestic violence on women’s lives"), they could also have sections on domestic abuse against men especially when we know that statistics show men are much less likely to report it to the authorities than women.

Yes, CDfm, keep banging that drum.

CDfm

And the ICTU conference on men was held where is year.If I follow the argument that a union deals with discrimination and inequalities their members are exposed to - then men should expect their unions to prioratise their issues.

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:qtEtChljWxQJ:www.getupstandup.ie/download/doc/ictu_women_and_recession_seminar_report1.doc+irish+trade+union+domestic+violence+policies&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

And why arent members of the Garda Representative Association asking why the only organisation in giving training on domestic violence to recruits is Womens Aid

http://www.womensaid.ie/pages/what/research/docs/2008_sub_training_development.pdf

The role of womensaid in training the guards is worth a thread by itself.

CDfm

Boston wrote: »

Just keep banging that drum.

Thanks for the encouragement Boston.

Ya get more serious discussion around pub opening on Good Friday then this and more effective protesting in closeing down a lapdancing club that affects less people than you get from lads when you throw them out of their houses and take their kids away.

Stringfellow club fails in Dublin after protests

By Tom Peterkin, Ireland Correspondent
Published: 12:01AM BST 17 Jul 2006

The expansion of Peter Stringfellow's topless dancing nightclub empire to Dublin has failed after protests by residents.
Only five months after the leopard skin-decorated club opened, it has closed. It seems that Roman Catholic Ireland is not ready to embrace the entertainment on offer, involving dancers offering customers a private three-minute striptease for £20.




During protracted legal negotiations to obtain a licence last year, residents were assured that the bar would be less raunchy than those in London and Paris.
But that did not satisfy protesters, who gathered outside the Parnell Street club when Mr Stringfellow opened it in a fanfare of publicity in February. Some demonstrators have returned every week since.

Now we have Boston -a true Legend of the Boards - on board no-one can touch us.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

And why arent members of the Garda Representative Association asking why the only organisation in giving training on domestic violence to recruits is Womens Aid

http://www.womensaid.ie/pages/what/research/docs/2008_sub_training_development.pdf

The role of womensaid in training the guards is worth a thread by itself.

I agree. Impartial law enforcement is very important (and a bit different to whatever guidance other unions might give). I had heard something about this before (there was a bias in how Gardai were trained) so useful to have more of the details.

CDfm

And of course the training and Garda policing methods are gender neutral.

It would never happen that a Garda would be falsely accused and arrested especially when he was the victim

Well it happened to this guy and here is a video link

http://www.amen.ie/Papers/120110_tv3_morningshow.htm

You would think the Garda Representative Association would ask a few questions when it affects one of their own

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

And of course the training and Garda policing methods are gender neutral.

It would never happen that a Garda would be falsely accused and arrested especially when he was the victim

Well it happened to this guy and here is a video link

http://www.amen.ie/Papers/120110_tv3_morningshow.htm

You would think the Garda Representative Association would ask a few questions when it affects one of their own

Powerful video that. Deals with a lot of the issues that have been mentioned in discussions before e.g. he was falsely accused, he lost access, etc - one could say he was lucky that because she was so dysfunctional, that social workers, etc became involved and saw that she wasn't able to mind three small children - lots of people wouldn't have three small children to mind and so the authorities might not get involved.

CDfm

Its a kick in the teeth for anyone thinking it couldnt happen to me.

I know a SIPTU union rep who went thru the same thing. He was shellshocked. He couldnt get his head around that he had gone on recruitment drives with his union and used to man the Womens Rights desks.

When it happened to him it was like karma. Bolt from the blue as it was supposed to happen to other people and not him.

Isnt it interesting that in the ICTU list you have groups fror women gays and lesbians and for groups dealing with men as perpetrators but none for Men as Victims

Where is Amen not on the Support Group list as its the only group exclusively handling male victims.

And why not use Accord or other Gender NeutralDomestic Violence StatisticS

Three Irish gender neutral surveys carried out by;
1: The Marriage and Relationship Counselling Service (MRCS).
2: Accord.
3: A study for the Department of Health and Children.
Found
The MRCS study found that domestic violence between couples tends to be mutual in a third of the cases(33%), female-perpetrated in four out ten couples (42%) and male-perpetrated in a quarter of couples (25%).
The Accord study found that where domestic Violence occurs, (46%) involved mutual violence; in (30%) of cases it was perpetrated by women only and in (24%) by men only.
The Department of Health study found, where domestic violence occurs, (50%) was mutual with the remainder divided equally between women-only and men-only perpetration.
These findings reflect the results of all independent two-sex studies carried out world-wide.

http://www.uspi.ie/Domestic%20Abuse.html

So if policies and campaigns in organisations are not gender neutral or use Independent Irish Research maybe you need to ask why not.

CDfm

Boston wrote: »

Just keep banging that drum.

Hey Boston -are you interested in going to the teachers conference in Galway -we can sit at the back and heckle