Geothermal and UFH Vs Oil and Rads

parkman2010

Hi jimmyging,
I had the same problem as yourself except multiply by two. Have replaced compressor twice and I know the company you are referring to have gone bust. They have just fixed my unit for the second time. Apparently electronic unit overheated, and burned out and this led to valve damage in the compressor. I had to put serious pressure on manufacturer to get it fixed. Whats your situation now?

freddyuk

Plombier wrote: »

Just to add my bit, if you look back through the posts over the cold spell I think there was one HP that failed but I'm not going to count the number of oil and gas boilers that have, Freddy what are the details of the HP you have ordered and how did you select it ?.

I have gone to the manufacturer that supplied my Solar thermal kit. Nasty Chinese stuff but I am a big fan of quality Far East equipment.
It is an all in one unit designed for a 300 L tank up to 55c. Specified COP = 3.2. We plan to try and boost performance with solar as this is the key, ie. using as little grid electricity as possible. I think this is one way forward and lots of chat going on regarding this subject.
If it works for my domestic situation it will fit the bill for many rural properties. Only one way to find out.
If you would like full details feel free to PM me.

Will report when we have some results; good or bad.

housebuilder1

Hi guys,

The most common reason for compressor failure is that most heat pumps installed in Ireland are way over sized. This leads to a frequent "start / stop" operation of the compressor. This will reduce the life of the compressor hugely. ive seen them go after 3 - 5 years because of this problem...

Heat pumps like to be running, they like to be left alone and not be over controlled by too many controls. This could also be the reason for compressor failures...

eg. house is 2500 Sqf (235 m2 approx) most guys would say maybe a 12kw - 16kw heat pump with stats in all the rooms... THIS IS MAD... a standard house to Part L 2008 would not need any more than 6 - 8 kw heat pump... this would ensure nice long runs on the compressor and a long life too... most modern heat pumps will also NOT need a buffer vessel if sized correctly. Most good modern heat pumps have full weather compensation, i.e the colder the weather the hotter the floor or rads (yes rads are fine too). Older type machine with NO full weather comp simply have to have a buffer...

Stats will only mess up the CPU weather compensation and cause the heat pump to start / stop too often and also to have higher running costs. Sats should only be used in room you want COLDER i.e bedrooms....

Heat pumps need a min volume of water to cool the hot gas coming from the condensor with a typical delta T of 8 degC. To get this a typcal heat pump needs between 10 - 15 Ltrs of water per Kw output, so if you insist on stats for some strange reason with a heat pump that has full weather comp then u will need a buffer of ( Xkw times 15Ltrs... )

i could go on and on about heat pumps and how the are controled incorrectly in this country... but i wont drive yee all away.. lol..

This experience is coming from having installed / supplied over 1,000 heat pumps so ive made my mistakes and learned fairly quickly the do's and dont's with these machines...

Simple "install me and leave me the hell alone" works best... Oh ya a good experienced installer with good back-up is vital too....

Cheers

mike

heinbloed

It might be of interest that HP compressors loose their refrigerant at all times. Even the large fluorine molecules pass through, these are much larger than the modern refrigerants. The smaller the molecules are the faster this process of diffusion happens.

Therefore the HP needs anual checks, at least anual checks. By qualified personal who are able to handle leak detection equipment. And who are literate.
This anual check is part of the guarantee of the manufacturers.
The owner of the HP is responsible to run a " log book " where the maintenance is documented, it is up to him to proove that the inspections - legally required or not- are recorded.

See also:

http://www.fluorocarbons.org/en/debate/regulatory_developments/f_gas_regulation.html


The plug and play advise by those claiming to have installed already thousands of HPs is wrong and shows an absolute disregard to consumers rights, economics and our legal system.


See also here for the legal requirements of the owner:

http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file31943.pdf

Quote:

" Record Keeping
Operators of the stationary applications referred to in article 3.1 containing
3kg or more of F gases will also have to maintain records on the quantity and
type of F gases installed, any quantities added and the quantity recovered
during maintenance, servicing and final disposal. They shall also maintain
records of other relevant information, including the identification of the
company or technician who performed the servicing or maintenance, as well
as the dates and results of the leakage checks and relevant information
specifically identifying the separate stationary equipment with more than 30kg
of F gases. These records will have to be made available on request to the
competent authority and the Commission. "

housebuilder1

Great advise there. And yea heat pumps do loose a certain amount of gas. I have had to get maybe 4-5 heat pumps re-gassed.

The most important thing like is said above is to make sure you get a good fridge guy. A really good one at that. Is very important that the circuit be evacuated, weighed, tested and refilled properly. Over filling is almost as bad as not enough so make sure u have the manufacturers guide as every type of heat pump does not have the same amount or type of gas.

Getting an average fridge guy will only mean getting a better one back again and paying on the double.

Heat pumps are fairly bullet proof once installed and commissioned properly and most problems are minor. Refrigerant should not be tried by beginners as the machine will never work properly or efficiently after.

Only go by the guides of the previous post.

Well done. Good post.

Mike.

jimmyging

parkman2010 wrote: »

Hi jimmyging,
I had the same problem as yourself except multiply by two. Have replaced compressor twice and I know the company you are referring to have gone bust. They have just fixed my unit for the second time. Apparently electronic unit overheated, and burned out and this led to valve damage in the compressor. I had to put serious pressure on manufacturer to get it fixed. Whats your situation now?

parkman,

we have just had the compressor replaced and system is running perfectly again.Our problem seems to have been that our plumber told us to leave the hp to ON constantly when it should have been on auto as we have room stats and a buffer tank.this means that the hp was overheating and tripping itself out all the time so it was only time til it burned itself out..it seems to have been running on average 16 hours a day and since it has been fixed it is between 2-4 hours /day in the cold .I hope this sorts it out and that your problem is solved pman.
jimmyging

housebuilder1

Hi. Glad to hear it's working well now. Can I ask you a question about your heat pump. Does it have weather compensation or just controlled by stats etc...

If it has weather comp try disconnecting the stats and you will find the machine runs even better.

Stats may cause heat pumps to start / stop too often causing eventual compressor failure.

Hope it runs good and for long years to come now for you.

Mike.

jimmyging

housebuilder thanks for the advice but i dont have weather comp as far as i know but have room stats and a buffer tank which i have since heard are not the most efficient but i will keep a close eye on it .Is weather comp just another stat ?
again thanks for info
jimmyging

Indieman

Hi, very sorry for jumping in on this thread but I have a quick question. I'm in the process of buying a 2600sf house with oil burner & underfloor all round. The house has been left idle all winter and I'm afraid the -14 frost has damaged the system ( burst pipes). Is there a way of testing the system???

housebuilder1

Jimmy. It's not a stat as such. It's an outdoor sensor linked to a controller that has several heating curves. Say it has 20 different curves. Curve one would represent a house with an extremely low heat loss while curve 20 would be crap like living in a shed. Lol. Most houses should be in between 1/2 and 1/3 way from bottom.
The curve is plotted in a graph. The x axis on the bottom is outdoor temp with zero approx half way. To the left is warmer. To the right colder. The y axis on vertical is flow temp. Zero on the bottom getting hotter as it rises.
As the outdoor temp gets colder the flow temp will rise according to the heat loss curve you have selected that best matches your house. This does need tweaking over a few weeks. Also as it gets warmer outside the flow temp reduces.
The affect in the house is a nice constant temp with no cold areas and ZERO reaction times as the floor is always on and always adjusting.
There is never a situation such as a cold start in the morning causing massive energy to get floor or rads unto temp quickly.
Weather comp can also be called floating condensing or non steady state.

Hope that helps. It takes a bit of getting your head around it but when you do it's brill.

Retro fitting is possible but can be complex.

Ta

Mike

housebuilder1

Indieman.

Oops. I've seen this happen so many times mate. It's not an easy one to sort in an existing house. Depends on where the leak is etc.

Only sure way is to pressure test before you purchase. It may cost a few hundred to get a lad out to test but may save you a lot more inthe end. Or it may put your mind at ease buying your home.

I think you may be lucky as the house is somewhat sealed and is not open to the severe frost but no harm in putting your mind at ease.

Let me know how it goes.

Best of luck in new home. Hope no leaks and all goes well.

Mike

freddyuk

housebuilder1 wrote: »

Indieman.

Oops. I've seen this happen so many times mate. It's not an easy one to sort in an existing house. Depends on where the leak is etc.

Only sure way is to pressure test before you purchase. It may cost a few hundred to get a lad out to test but may save you a lot more inthe end. Or it may put your mind at ease buying your home.

I think you may be lucky as the house is somewhat sealed and is not open to the severe frost but no harm in putting your mind at ease.

Let me know how it goes.

Best of luck in new home. Hope no leaks and all goes well.

Mike

A few hundred??!! It is very unlikely the U/F has been affected by frost it would be the copper system elsewhere that would suffer damage. Is the system leaking / empty? A leak above ground would be fairly obvious.
If it is pressurised system it should be easy to check if it is holding pressure. If it is open vented then a few checks and procedures will allow you to pressure test it.
Anyway we have hijacked a thread so apologies OP.

housebuilder1

i mean a few hundred as in 200 or so if a leak needs to be found. if its a simple sealed system with fill valve then it will only take 5 min to see if it hold pressure. you could do that easy your self...

if the pipe is in a screed it can burst as easy as above ground. we had a house under air test before xmas and when plumber came back after xmas he filled and vented the system with water. when he cam back a few days later to turn heat pump on the weather got cold again and when discovered pressure was gone, presumed it may have been air but no, a pipe in the screed had frozen and burst. i dug it out and there it was. amazing how it went, it was in middle of house and all... wierd or what. although water freezing has far more pressure that one may think...

All im saying is that for peace of mind it would be easy to pressurize floor and if pressure drops to call a guy out to hopefully find it.

Indieman

Is it possible to pressure test a complete working system? I have an idea as to how underfloor works so can all the valves be open at once in the entire house to check everything? There is a stat in every room and space

parkman2010

jimmyging wrote: »

it seems to have been running on average 16 hours a day and since it has been fixed it is between 2-4 hours /day in the cold

Hi jimmyging,
Thanks for your reply, Ya I have my system fixed again thankfully, though it is still not working 100% yet. Just regarding the quote of 16 hours per day and such. I was just wondering what is the average amount of hours a heatpump should be on in weather of about 0 degrees. I know there are alot of variables for this and such.

You say that you have it on for 2-4 hours per day, is this sufficient to keep the house temperature topped up? What temperature do you aim to have in your home? Sorry for all the questions, just nosy!!

jimmyging

parkman2010 wrote: »

Hi jimmyging,
Thanks for your reply, Ya I have my system fixed again thankfully, though it is still not working 100% yet. Just regarding the quote of 16 hours per day and such. I was just wondering what is the average amount of hours a heatpump should be on in weather of about 0 degrees. I know there are alot of variables for this and such.

You say that you have it on for 2-4 hours per day, is this sufficient to keep the house temperature topped up? What temperature do you aim to have in your home? Sorry for all the questions, just nosy!!

parkman,

how do you mean it is not working 100 % yet ? is your average temp still low indoors .In answer to your question i dont know how many hours a day the heat pump should be working but ours has been working fine on about 4 hours a day since it was fixed .my brother has the same type of system but having mixed results down to insulation i think.
:pac:

jimmyging

sorry didnt mean to put in that pacman..

annie gilpin

twenty8 wrote: »

It appears to me that most of the comments so far are from people with Geo and UFH. I have both and would not change. House is approx 3,500 sq ft and the missus loves her heat as too do the kids. It would cost another mortgage to heat this place via oil burner. With the geo I have a very warm and cosy house. At what cost??

Well my yearly electricity bills are roughly €1,400 which I consider reasonable. Don't forget that that cost also includes all my other electricity uses - lights etc etc.

I thoroughly recommend it - but as an earlier poster said there is a larger upfront cost - and you will have to review your budget against that. Any questions - don't hesitate to ask.

im also thinking on installing geothermal.im about to start a new build in donegal.was wondering what tipe of heat pump you have in and what size it is? thanks annie

Pumping Heat

I am stunned at the sheer ignorance being displayed about Geothermal underfloor heating, wind and solar energy. obviously "information" being gleaned from the Ph.D of the Bar stool or Dinner Party.

Fact: You need to Keep the heat in and control the levels of heat.
Fact: The number of KW/Hrs needed to heat the house is common to all sources.
Fact: Condensing boilers cease to condense when the return temperatures rise so the "extra efficiency" is not continuous.
Fact: Solar water heating is very green and free in use but still very uneconomical.
Fact:Wind energy in smaller applications is still financial lunacy.
Fact: The difference in cost between modern Air source and ground source geothermal is such that the air source installed correctly in a properly constructed house is the most economical source of home heating at present and will become more so as time goes on.

heinbloed

Pumping Heat wrote:

Fact: Condensing boilers cease to condense when the return temperatures rise so the "extra efficiency" is not continuous.

There are modern boilers available which do use the condensing modus AND have a high return temperature. Alas they start at 12 kWh min. output, better suited for larger building/high thermal energy demand.

See here:

http://www.ryll-tech.de/l1/index_l1.html

There are more:

http://www.vollbrennwerttechnik.de/hersteller/hersteller.html

Click onto the www. adresses, text mostly in German. But check the web for more, I'm sure there is a good deal available.


About the

Fact: Solar water heating is very green and free in use but still very uneconomical.

: ST heating can be economical, a price for thermal energy of 3-6 kWh can be guaranteed and charged and profitable.

See here:

http://www.solar-district-heating.eu/Home.aspx

and in particular for detailed prices and economics the Marstall project:

http://www.solar-district-heating.eu/Home.aspx

All sums checked! And the HP from 1 MW (!) onwards is economical. Smaller, ones (maybe 1 for each costumer ) aren't worth it.

As said in the Marstall reports: 3 cents/kWh are the target.

A Danish participant in the Marstall project ( Arcon ) can guarantee 3-4 cents according press releases.

JohnAC

Fact 6 re: air to water... Can you expand on this as I'm afraid it not quiet as simple at that. With quality units the installation costs is not all that different with geo and running costs of a 20yr period will tell a lot with a unit having far better running costs i.e. geothermal. There are cheap air to water units in the market but as an installer I can't say I'd be comfortable in terms of guarantee, backup service etc.

mrmarko

Pumping Heat wrote: »

Fact: The difference in cost between modern Air source and ground source geothermal is such that the air source installed correctly in a properly constructed house is the most economical source of home heating at present and will become more so as time goes on.

Hi, just after spending quite a while reading this thread! Interesting for me as I am building a new house...seriously considering Geothermal.. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the Air to water HP as opposed to the bored hole ground source HP?

It my own head I am presuming that the GSHP will be far more efficent than the A/W HP in really cold weather?? Is this a correct assumption? What would the difference be between the two in say a good standard heat pump?

Does anyone have any unbiased data on who is the market leaders of heat pump suppliers?

Thanks in advance!!

heinbloed

Mrmarko asks:

Does anyone have any unbiased data on who is the market leaders of heat pump suppliers?

Well, the market leaders aren't selling in the EU the products what make them 'leaders' .
The EU has informed consumers concerning heating and cooling technolgies. And -compared to the wwmarket-rather strict legal demands. For the market leaders better check Asia and America.

It my own head I am presuming that the GSHP will be far more efficent than the A/W HP in really cold weather?? Is this a correct assumption?

It depends on the demand of thermal energy and availability. Some bore holes are rather 'dull', others are better. So are (solar) surface collectors. Contact a heating engineer who will draw-up a supply/coverage plan.

RavenII

What a funny comment! ...the Asians generally make cheap & cheerful 'split' air-condtioning based units, most typically air/water (Mitsubishi/Daikin/Hitahi etc)...the Americans are in the stone age with their stuff as the vast majority of their heating/cooling needs are air based duct fed sytems from their 'furnaces'...there's a slow movement into 'hydronic' or water based heating on the east coast, but the products are rough compared to european offerings. The Swedish have been using heatpumps continuously since the oil crisis in 1973....if you want the 'iPOD' level of market leaders, there's one crowd that stand out...just look at it, it's that obvious. www.nibe.eu.

If you're building a new house use a ground source HP; put it in the house not down the garden in a shed - buy one with the hot water built in (€7000 ish). That way you'll minimise the installation cost and heat losses. With the new planning rules you comply with renewable requirements and the total installed cost should be no more than oil + solar which will cost double the price to run. If you use an air/water heatpump you WILL need also a boiler to cover low air temp. days, so they are better suited to retro-fits

There's a listing of independently tested heatpumps on SEAI's 'HARP Database'

heinbloed wrote: »

Mrmarko asks:


Well, the market leaders aren't selling in the EU the products what make them 'leaders' .
The EU has informed consumers concerning heating and cooling technolgies. And -compared to the wwmarket-rather strict legal demands. For the market leaders better check Asia and America.




It depends on the demand of thermal energy and availability. Some bore holes are rather 'dull', others are better. So are (solar) surface collectors. Contact a heating engineer who will draw-up a supply/coverage plan.

selfbuiler

Hi lads, I`m the guy who posted this orignal thread, I`m delighted to see that the HP people and the NON HP people have been having a good go at each other. ANYWAY, I have my sub floor in and I`m preparing to put in my insulastion and my underfloor pipes. Any advice on the insulation and also on the laying of the underfloor pipes. I`m usuing a local plumber and he is pretty good but I`m paying him by the day so any advice on the pipes to use etc.....
Also I have decided not to use the easy screed concrete floor and instead I`m going to pour a 3 inch concrete floor on top of the pipes. The easyscreed people are saying that the concrete will crack and that I will die "only messing", any taughts......

Pumping Heat

You are again the victim of the barstool and dinnerparty PH.D's
The more concrete you pour the slower the response. Most manufacturers recommenrd 100mm including the pipe dianmeter.
Why do the unknowing decide they can pontificate on that which has been tried and proven?
I visited an opinionated acquaintence in hospital after he had been severly injured in a vehicle accident while not wearing a seatbelt. His passenger was relitively unscathed while wearing one. All the police, ambulance people reckoned his injuries would not have been anywhere near as severe if he had worn one.
i asked him "John,Why didn't you wear your seat belt?
He muttered through a wired jaw "I have a theory about seat belts....

I make a good part of my living remediating stupid mistakes by those who re invent the wheel.

As to the HP debate. The sums make the case. ASHP's (in the abscence of a major breakthrough in fuel cell boilers) are the future. Do The Maths!!!

heinbloed

@ selfbuiler:

The thermal properties of of the UFH must be calculated. Anything else, like going for what 'seems' to be a good idea, is like casting dices. The chance you get an optimum solution are much lower than the chances to loose.

Any supplier of UFH systems has the necessary software to give at least a calculation based solution. As long as the demand and availability parameters are availble this calculation should be done.

The type of pipes, their length, distribution, diameter depends on this calculation. Employing chancers will cost dearly. Similar to ask the mathematical amateurs to choose a HP. It willvery likely end up in a financial disaster.

Invest a few 100€s and get a professional heating engineer to do the math, in these times the supervision of the installation work could be included in the price. Shop around.

heinbloed

As the poster Pumping Heat said:
Do the math!

Calculating the efficiency of installed Cold Pumps (the term " Heat Pumps" is technically wrong and misleads the consumers, in whom's interest is this?)

is based on real numbers. And so is the performance of existing heating systems supplied with such a thermal source.

Nearly ALL installers are shy to publish real performances. In particular the Irish and British installers, sellers and users.
Despite publishing this link here

http://www.waermepumpen-verbrauchsdatenbank.de/index.php?lang=de

since years no Irish user/seller/installer has entered any system with traceable performance numbers.
For a very good reason I think.

Even the best installations, done be heating engineers who have studied their profession for many years in universities and on-site, with academic diplomas and the chambers of trade praising their competence, show remarkable failures when it it comes to anual systems COPs.

Not all of them, but the very most !

It seems to be very difficult, even after decades of market presence, to combine demand with supply in an energy efficient method.

Always ask your selesmen/installer/plumber why he or she is NOT
PUBLISHING any performance numbers of his or her previous jobs.

Ask the correct questions and they walk out the door.

Pumping Heat

Sounds like you have conspiracy issue theories

mrmarko

heinbloed wrote: »

Well, the market leaders aren't selling in the EU the products what make them 'leaders' .
The EU has informed consumers concerning heating and cooling technolgies. And -compared to the wwmarket-rather strict legal demands. For the market leaders better check Asia and America.

Thank you for the input..from what I see however we in Ireland have mostl europeon produced heat pumps...

I have got quotes for Heliotherm, Watterkotte (x2), Alfa-Innotec ....its very hard to decide...there is not a whole lot in it really..although heliothem have a 5 year warranty.... Its wrecking my head and I will need a decision soon!!...can anyone answer or PM me that can maybe give me some unbiased guidance on the different suppliers? Perhaps someone has already done some research for their own system?

Pumping Heat

Nobody makes a bad heat pump anymore.Chose the combination of product and installing/supplying company. No more than 3% difference in seasonal efficiency between good ASHP and GSHP. However at least 40% difference in installed price. How long to get your mony back on the extra spend. Lots of high brow nonsense on this thread. Be prudent and dont get too wound up on the rocket science for what is quite a pedestrian application.

heinbloed

@ mrmarko :

Here is an independant test lab which publishes the test results, free to view for everyone- as long as the manufacturer agrees with the publishing.

NTB Buchs / Institut für Energiesysteme IES: Prüfreglement

Click onto the flag symbol for the English text.

All HP manufacturers (designed for heating purposes) selling in the EU must have their product tested by an independant test lab. According to EN standard.
There are plenty of very bad performing HPs on the market.

Note that the different types of HPs sold by a manufacturer are not all listed in the public reports. For a very good reason, they're trash. But cheaply manufactured, therefore profitable for the seller and installer, the cowboys in the trade.

Before deciding for the type and make of a HP get independant advice from a heating engineer or the like. It is very important to get the matching model, matching thermal demand and the availability of enviroment energy.

Get this report signed.

And then ask for a best choice, use the official test reports. If someone wants to sell something or recommends something not listed in the public domaine then be very carefull.

Be aware that from June this year all systems used for producing AND supplying DHW have to be energy rated, a new EU legislation which needs NO translation into national legislations.
With the term "system" is not only the thermal source meant, the HP, the boiler, the ST collector but the entire system from source to tap. Incl. pumps, storage/buffer tanks, plumbing and insulation, controls etc..

See here:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2009-0278+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Systems for space heating are following, propably from December 2011 or January 2012. So ask your heating engineer to follow these rules in his report.
Let him/her design the entire system, the installer has to follow these instructions.

Again: there is no time lapse allowed for the usual national late comers, this EU legislation will be FORCED onto memberstates. Unusual but necessary. See chapter 8 in the link above.
So don't be surprised of agressive traders who want to close down with as little stock left as possible.

Good luck!

PS

HP test center Buchs has (so far) not all reports published in English language, if you need help with a particular type/model let me know. Buchs will help you as well, just contact them.
But the manufacturers should have the published test results available in English as well.

Topper74

Hi Guys,

Looking for advice (even after reading all of the above)

Trying to decide on heating sys for 2500sqft rural house new build.
I'm meeting a plumber this weekend to discuss.
I'm vering towards
Condensing oil boiler/Solar panels and Back boiler/Multi fuel stove (have some access to turf/timber)

Hoping to put underfloor piping down stairs and rads upstairs.
150 mm cavity pumbed with sprayfoam in attic so hopefully with good airtighness that should cover that angle.

Basically like most people, I'm trying to reduce oil requirement, and hope to have a system set-up so that oil is last to be called into play.

Do people think this is a good set-up at least in theory?

HP's not really a fan as it seems you have to have setup perfect in order for sys to be good.

Thx for any help.

Pumping Heat

Wow, Would you follow a carpenters medical opinion. Would you build your house with technical advice provided by a jockey? So why decide your heating strategy advised by a muppet? Why would you spend money on a technology which will give you 60% of about €300 per year of a saving? To do a proper solar job in your house size is probably about €6000.You will save only about €200 per year. Do the sums. Condensing boiler is not worth it unless you spend big money on a modulating condensing boiler.
Heat pumps specified and installed by competent people work very well with minimal complications and cost much less then oil to run when done so.
If you contract a muppet you will get a cartoon job.Also oil and electricity are not connected one to one on price as some of the clowns would have you believe. Do the research, oil has only a tiny effect on electricity prices.

shummy38

If you invest a lot in insulation you can worry less about the cost of oil.

Best solution for you is to install a multifunction tank to take heating water only . Connect boiler directly , solid fuel directly and solar via coil.

Solar sensor at bottom , Solid fuel will have to be uncontrolled and boiler sensor above top third . This will ensure that Cond, Boiler will only come on when the top of tank starts to get cold (ie Last)

This way solar will also contribute to heating.

Domestic hot water ,showsers etc will come from a heat exchasznger built into tank. IE instantaneoys hot water on demand

Hope the above helps.

Tanks boilers etc and drawings can be obtained from www.hevac.ie

shummy38

mrmarko wrote: »

Thank you for the input..from what I see however we in Ireland have mostl europeon produced heat pumps...

I have got quotes for Heliotherm, Watterkotte (x2), Alfa-Innotec ....its very hard to decide...there is not a whole lot in it really..although heliothem have a 5 year warranty.... Its wrecking my head and I will need a decision soon!!...can anyone answer or PM me that can maybe give me some unbiased guidance on the different suppliers? Perhaps someone has already done some research for their own system?

Choose alpha Innotech.

L driver

@Pumping Heat,
What is the performance like of your ASHP when it is -10? I am interested in heat/cold pumps for a new build.

shummy38

Its true that solar is a long payback , perhaps quicker when used to also heat the Buffer(heating) water. There is no reason not to go with solar if you are building a house from scratch for a variety of reasons. A two or three panel system can be bought for 2000 euros complete +installation.Payback can be 10-20 years depending on the utilisation of the heat.using a buffer to distribute heat to UFH and rads is a good solution.

If you were using a heatpump , alpha innotec have a useful device called a solar energy manager. It puts excess solar heat into ground collector or borehole to charge the ground so more enegy and a higher COP is available for the heat pump in winter. This solves the perennial problem with solar that there is either too much or not enough heat in this country.

By the way all new houses with a boiler must have a condensing boiler by law. In the case of oil this cant be modulating . Gas can modulate , not oil (unless its industrial). There is a huge difference in cost between heat pump and condensing oil material cost. 1200 Versus €7000-€10000 + installation add another 5000/6000 for boreholes... Although a heatpump will payback normally in 5/7 years based on comparison with oil and gas. The more you insulate your house the less difference between the two forms of heat and the longer the payback. For example I know a family with a timber frame house lots of insulation and heat recovery system (4000 sq feet) on oil and spending under 1200 per year. Any heat pump couldnt beat that by more than a few hundred therby leaving a payback of 20-30 years.Any payback should be within 10 years as product replacements parts etc will kick in within 10. I guess you would have to add the cost of all the additional isulation to the boiler price to get a proper comparison but insulation is relatively inexpensive.

I dont advocate not using heat pumps, for example inverter driven air source heat pumps can be purchased very cheaply (2000-3000) and will heat 2500 sq. foot houses. Will need oil or gas back up due to fluctuations in COP in very cold conditions.

shummy38

L driver wrote: »

@Pumping Heat,
What is the performance like of your ASHP when it is -10? I am interested in heat/cold pumps for a new build.

Not good. I expect under 2.0

L driver

Thanks Shummy,
That is what I would have thought and prob less, I think the convenience of a good, right sized, properly installed gshp is very attractive. Oil boiler + district heat pipe+tank+oil fill+solar set up ~€6000, rough figures here, take ufh and dhw tank as constants and a 9kW heatpump set up @ €9500(please correct these figures if way out) then I would estimate pay back of about 12years maybe less. But as you say the more insulation etc the choice becomes more lifestyle I think.

heinbloed

@ Topper74:

The first thing to find out is the heating demand. Domestic hot water and space heating. This calculation will deliver at least two vital numbers: the total anual demand ( kWh/a) and then the maximum demand (kW) .
Without these data any plumber's planning is like casting dices. Just to say soandso many radiators and squarefeet will need suchandsuch heating system won't do.
The designer of the structure (architect/civil engineer) must do these calculations. He/she is responsible for this job.

With these numbers and the technical drawings of your structure you would have to contact the UFH designer.There are different systems of UFh with different outputs. Without this information the UFH might be get badly designed from the very beginning.

And AFTER these two trades have had their input you (or your heating engineer/plumber/energy advisor etc.) can decide with more confidence on the thermal source.

Best suited for ST energy support are structures with large south facing surfaces.
And the cheapest energy is the one we don't have to pay for. So insulate well. Ask your designer how to get a max. of insulation for a min. of money.
150mm of foam is very thin for a modern house.

If you want to make optimum use of low temperature energy (heat pump, ST, condensing boiler) then plan for a wall heating as well. Every surface which can be used for distribution or storage of thermal energy should be used.
The pipes are cheap, so don't save on them. For the plasterer's wage it wouldn't matter much if he puts 10 or 20mm onto the wall.

heinbloed

Again the links concerning real performance of HP systems and official COPs:

http://www.waermepumpen-verbrauchsdatenbank.de/index.php?lang=en


https://institute.ntb.ch/ntb-institute/ies/waermepumpen-testzentrum-wpz/pruefreglement.html?L=1

A HP supported heating system's performance is always worse than the COP of the HP on its own. Get a qualified heating engineer to sign for the anual performance of the heating system. As demanded by law from 2012 anyhow.

L driver

Heinbloed,
Thanks for links some interesting stuff, I am messing about with figures myself for learning/understanding purposes and maybe you will help. For water heating 4150kWh/a and space heating 3400kWh/a, could be a mile out but for a training purpose will do. Could a solar array, within reason, meet this energy demand?
Sorry everyone dragging this off topic, doing an edit, mixed up Sinnerboy and Heinbloed!!! Mods move it unless it can be used to compare geo and ufh to oil and rads, not a bad idea maybe and again only a comparison/learning exercise.

heinbloed

L driver asks:

For water heating 4150kWh/a and space heating 3400kWh/a, could be a mile out but for a training purpose will do. Could a solar array, within reason, meet this energy demand?

Yes, this can be met. The numbers you have seem to me very small for a standard home, the DHW demand larger than the space heating demand, PH specifications ? No problem.

Jenny is doing 100% solar houses off-the rail and sell the plans as well. See

http://www.jenni.ch/

Their first projects where overdimensioned, now they go for half size tanks and collector arrays.

Fraunhofer calculates the build-and-running costs of ST 100% coverage to be around 10% cheaper than a PH supplied with a HP and controlled ventilation.

See for general modern building infos:

http://www.irb.fraunhofer.de/?local=en

And if someone says this can't be done in Ireland send him to the eternal ice. See

http://www.antarcticstation.org/

Get an energy advisor to calculate the energy demand and ST coverage.

There are two different efficiency calculations done with ST collectors. The official one ( solar key mark) delivers more of a harvest than the more realistic ( ITW) method.
Solar key mark takes it for granted that lab results achieved under controlled conditions are compareable with different radiation values. Which isn't correct.
The ITW method looks more precisely into " low radiation - low outside temperature " results and gives a better ' winter prediction '. The difference is about 10-20 % !
ITW isn't yet recognised as an international standard but is fully scientific, with meassured and repeatable results.
Solar key mark is oposing the upgrading of their lists not because ITW is wrong but because many of their certified collectors would be blown out of the key-mark list - according to their own rules. Since they wouldn't match a min. efficiency of 50-55% anymore when looking at realistic values.

I think the Swedish collector efficiency scheme is also better than solar keymark, more realistic.

So get a good energy advisor/civil engineer/ heating engineer who will sign for his/her calculations. Make sure the term " 100% coverage " is part of the contract, secured with a professional indemnity insurance.

L driver

Heinbloed,
Thanks for great links, as usual. But without massive storage tanks or an interseasonal store, is ST an option on its own for december/january? Anyway to bring this back on topic have you any positive views on gshp say in a proper sized/installed system with electric supply from the likes of airtricity? We are limited to the big 2 in regards to lpg, so oil is the next option until solar can contribute after the dark months.

heinbloed

@ L driver:

But without massive storage tanks or an interseasonal store, is ST an option on its own for december/january?

It depends on the demand and what is available. Contact a professional.

L driver

heinbloed wrote: »

@ L driver:



Contact a professional.

Thought I was by asking you;) I have made contact with some but I am waiting on replies, everyone seems to be on a go slow these days! Any positive view on a gshp with solar kicking in after winter, I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of these things that is why I ask.

heinbloed

" L driver " asks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinbloed
@ L driver:



Contact a professional.

Thought I was by asking you I have made contact with some but I am waiting on replies, everyone seems to be on a go slow these days! Any positive view on a gshp with solar kicking in after winter, I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of these things that is why I ask.

I can imagine professional advice costs money. Aren't you paying the professionals? Why won't they work for you?

You see, I came across a builder who fakes pictures of jobs he claims to have done. He uses my wifes car on his home page pictures. He lies on his homepage and is a real amateur in thermodynamics....

He even claims to sell a PHI certified product, some sort of funny insulation. Nothing is true, there is no such certification issued by the PHI to him.


He is now using a different alias in forums like this to hide his ignorance, cheating potential consumers. " B-pilot " ore something like it.....

This 'builder' (the trade forgives me to use this expression in his case) claimes on his home page all sort of things. Which are utterly lies. For example that he installed a 10.000 liter solar thermal storage tank in my home. He claims also that Sunshore ST collectors he has seen in my place can be run as drain-back, such a liar he is.
He claims further that my house is supplied with 65% ST energy for space heating, what a liar!

Such amateurs I wouldn't let touch a brush in my house.

Be carefull when operating with people who operate like this. They are gangsters, maybe bancrupt and now trying to milk their dead bussiness by showing live cows in the neighbour's field.





http://www.viking-house.ie/hydro-thermal-energy-store.html

Some interesting pictures on the center page of this link, for example my wife's car and my solar thermal installation, even two pictures of Sunshore collectors behind my garden pond.

Have a look at the lower part of this page, showing an installation of loadbearing steel. Contact a professional builder and ask what the minimum coverage with concrete on loadbearing steel would have to be.

You see, " L driver ", it's better to look for professional advice. Otherwise the structure crumbles, the facade comes off and shows an idiot's intellectual work.

L driver

Hello,
Heinbloed thanks again for your reply and yes, as I said previously, I have professionals employed and don't worry I pay them. But this forum, with posts and advice from genuine people like yourself with much more knowledge and understanding, gives Homer Simpsons like me the awareness and questions to ask these cowboys to suss them out. Therefore we end up paying for good service and the cost of a good job is long forgotten...
I am in correspondence with one of the companies in your links at the moment and I will update when I have more info. By the way you have been reducing your lpg use over the years as you developed your ST, i am a closet forum lurker, can your ST cover the winter months?
and to bring his post back on topic, Any positive view on a gshp with solar kicking in after winter?

Geratron

Hi guys, this thread has some very interesting reading. I was wondering if any of you have any experience of IVT Geothermal heat pumps. My wife and I are going to put one into our house with a ground collector and with underfloor heating. Our provider says he can heat our house for a grand a year which sounds pretty good, giving the rise in the cost of home heating oil. Our house is very well insolated. The system itself is not that much more expensive to buy and install than a conventionlal heating system with rads.

Gerry