Birmingham v Liverpool match thread - Mod Warning #432 & #446

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

You are turning into an absolute joke on front of our eyes, you know that?

I am just going to ignore you for a while - you are just looking for a reaction.

Because I'm urging caution amongst Liverpool fans for criticising their manager without being in possession of the full facts?

Harsh.

Its funny you should say "looking for a reaction" when gross overreaction is all I ever hear from ye when discussing yoiur manager.

flahavaj

monkey9 wrote: »

I'd love to hear the reasons that Rafa will give for the substitution!!

Ironically, for me, we got a lot better when Torres went off. It wasn't one of his better performances!

N'gog, Maxi , even Babel maybe all should have scored!!

Whats the problem so?

NukaCola

Whatever about the race for 4th, we are 19 points behind the leaders with 5 games still to play. Thats astounding IMO.

bohsman

flahavaj wrote: »

Show me a player who ever looked happy to be subbed.

He was shocked not unhappy.

Rafa Must Stay.

Sir Gallagher

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

If you think that's justification for him as a club captain then I think I'm going to give up on football fans.

Seriously, if he's not arsed because he doesn't rate Lucas then he may as well leave in the summer, and if you think he's right then you should support team Gerrard somewhere else, because frankly it's pathetic.

That being said however I have no idea who you support and could have got this completely wrong, but oh well.

I'm a Liverpool fan and i think it's a fair point to make although i dont agree with him dropping the head this season i understand it, he's nearly 30 and the club is going nowhere i reckon he's just fed up at this stage.

colly10

flahavaj wrote: »

Whats the problem so?

They didn't, cause they can't finish

Boggles

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

If you think that's justification for him as a club captain then I think I'm going to give up on football fans.

Seriously, if he's not arsed because he doesn't rate Lucas then he may as well leave in the summer, and if you think he's right then you should support team Gerrard somewhere else, because frankly it's pathetic.

Balls for the last 5-6 years he has dragged Liverpool through 30-40 matches at least. Winning them on his own at times.

Something rotten in Camp Scouse, Gerrards performances are a sympton not the cause.

Bit of a perspective.

flahavaj

Boggles wrote: »

Balls for the last 5-6 years he has dragged Liverpool through 30-40 matches at least. Winning them on his own at times.

Something rotten in Camp Scouse, Gerrards performances are a sympton not the cause.

Bit of a perspective.

LOL at the fact that Boggles and I are the voice of reason in a thread full of hysterical scousers.:pac:

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

Its funny you should say "looking for a reaction" when gross overreaction is all I ever hear from ye when discussing yoiur manager.

Unfortunately that is not true.

You have to look at what side of an arugment you are on in relation to these things. You usually find yourself on Mr Alan's side - you see that isn't actually the most impartial position to find yourself in.

I am actually quite level-headed - if you somehow think that posters are going OTT for taking Torres off today when they player wanted to continue then you simply haven't a clue.

Sir Gallagher

flahavaj wrote: »

Show me a player who ever looked happy to be subbed.

Again I repeat, ye are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. Possibly being a tad hasty.

It may turn out that the substitution was tactical, in which case knock yeerselves out, slag your manager all ye like.

But you don't know that for sure yet, basing it on players' reactions is laughable.

I'm always wary of overly "understanding" United fans when it comes to Liverpool.

noodler

Boggles wrote: »

Balls for the last 5-6 years he has dragged Liverpool through 30-40 matches at least. Winning them on his own at times.

Something rotten in Camp Scouse, Gerrards performances are a sympton not the cause.

Bit of a perspective.

Again, another opinion built on legend rather than merit.

You can't play as badly as Gerrard has this season and be immune from criticism. You certainly can not play that badly and have an excuse like "well I don't rate the other players" going for you.

Have you actually thought this true? Imagine the star player for your own amateur team having a poor season and yet still getting bailed out by the opinion that the players around him are simply worse.

To say nothing of his own poor attitude to others on the pitch this season.

Great player but he doesn't get to avoid criticism just because of his previous seasons.

jesus_thats_gre

flahavaj wrote: »

LOL at the fact that Boggles and I are the voice of reason in a thread full of hysterical scousers.:pac:

Desperation has quite the powerful effect on football fans..

Pyjamarama

We were certainly more direct when nando came off but i agree with those who say the right players came on but the wrong ones came off. Babel was excellent as was ngog and Aquaman did well, Kyut, Maxi and Lucas were awful today. Stevie was ok but more is to be expected.

We were unlikely to get 4th anyway but it's pretty much gone for sure now... it'll be interesting to see the reaction the club takes to not making 4th... I don't think Nando/Pepe etc will leave but I think we would likely entertain offers for stevie at this stage. Will Rafa walk is the question cause they can't afford to sack him.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Unfortunately that is not true.

You have to look at what side of an arugment you are on in relation to these things. You usually find yourself on Mr Alan's side - you see that isn't actually the most impartial position to find yourself in.

I am actually quite level-headed - if you somehow think that posters are going OTT for taking Torres off today when they player wanted to continue then you simply haven't a clue.

The ignoring gimmick was rather brief I see.;)

Look I'm not looking for a reaction etc.

You are a level headed and good poster and I've no desire to get into a day-long battle with you over Rafa f*cking Benitez of all people.

But in this case I think its a bit rich to be jumping to the worst possible conclusions about the situation judged purely on players' reactions on the pitch. Wait to hear about a possible injury/tirednes or any other explanation, then when in possession of the facts flame away to your heart's content.

As for me being constantly on the same page as Alan, well thats just plain wrong, believe me. I'd say this is the first time ever in my time posting here that I've agreed with the guy two days in a row, usually its the opposite.

noodler wrote: »

Again, another opinion built on legend rather than merit.

You can't play as badly as Gerrard has this season and be immune from criticism. You certainly can not play that badly and have an excuse like "well I don't rate the other players" going for you.

Have you actually thought this true? Imagine the star player for your own amateur team having a poor season and yet still getting bailed out by the opinion that the players around him are simply worse.

To say nothing of his own poor attitude to others on the pitch this season.

Great player but he doesn't get to avoid criticism just because of his previous seasons.

But Torres is immune from being substituted based on previous performances?;)

Ush1

noodler wrote: »

Again, another opinion built on legend rather than merit.

You can't play as badly as Gerrard has this season and be immune from criticism. You certainly can not play that badly and have an excuse like "well I don't rate the other players" going for you.

Have you actually thought this true? Imagine the star player for your own amateur team having a poor season and yet still getting bailed out by the opinion that the players around him are simply worse.

To say nothing of his own poor attitude to others on the pitch this season.

Great player but he doesn't get to avoid criticism just because of his previous seasons.

Bang on.

Blame everybody else but the disinterested captain who used to score goals for the team.:rolleyes:

monkey9

Pyjamarama wrote: »

We were certainly more direct when nando came off but i agree with those who say the right players came on but the wrong ones came off. Babel was excellent as was ngog and Aquaman did well, Kyut, Maxi and Lucas were awful today. Stevie was ok but more is to be expected.

We were unlikely to get 4th anyway but it's pretty much gone for sure now... it'll be interesting to see the reaction the club takes to not making 4th... I don't think Nando/Pepe etc will leave but I think we would likely entertain offers for stevie at this stage. Will Rafa walk is the question cause they can't afford to sack him.

One thing that can safely be assumed is that Gerrard and Rafa won't be at Liverpool next season. One of them will go, if not both. I don't think Gerrard will accept playing another season for Rafa!!

Sir Gallagher

noodler wrote: »

Again, another opinion built on legend rather than merit.

You can't play as badly as Gerrard has this season and be immune from criticism. You certainly can not play that badly and have an excuse like "well I don't rate the other players" going for you.

Have you actually thought this true? Imagine the star player for your own amateur team having a poor season and yet still getting bailed out by the opinion that the players around him are simply worse.

To say nothing of his own poor attitude to others on the pitch this season.

Great player but he doesn't get to avoide criticism just because of his previous seasons.

As i've said before although i dont agree with his attitude at times this season i can understand his frustrations this season. I think he has lost all faith in Benitez a long time ago and it's affected him psychologically.

If we got Jose in next season i reckon Gerrard would have a smashing season some players are just like that, big egos and what not. Some players are stronger willed though and soldier on regardless.

flahavaj

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

As i've said before although i dont agree with his attitude at times this season i can understand his frustrations this season. I think he has lost all faith in Benitez a long time ago and it's affected him psychologically.

If we got Jose in next season i reckon Gerrard would have a smashing season some players are just like that, big egos and what not. Some players are stronger willed though and soldier on regardless.

Forget this.

opr

Playing the likes of Torres, Gerrard and other players in the Europa league when we are fighting for 4th is a mistake. The only person to blame for that mistake is Rafa.

Opr

Ush1

monkey9 wrote: »

One thing that can safely be assumed is that Gerrard and Rafa won't be at Liverpool next season. One of them will go, if not both. I don't think Gerrard will accept playing another season for Rafa!!

That's quite an indictnment on Gerrard if that happens, he's just become like Raul at Real Madrid.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

LOL at the fact that Boggles and I are the voice of reason in a thread full of hysterical scousers.:pac:

Just in. LOL that you actually think that.

Boggles

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Just in. LOL that you actually think that.

Why?

niallo27

Torres didnt get a chance all day, the game didnt suit him, ngog comes on and gets a few chances, good tactical sub in my opinion.

flahavaj

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Just in. LOL that you actually think that.

Was a tongue in cheek observation

I know you've had a tough afternoon, but unclench and for the umpteenth time think before you type.;)

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

The ignoring gimmick was rather brief I see.;)

Look I'm not looking for a reaction etc.

You are a level headed and good poster and I've no desire to get into a day-long battle with you over Rafa f*cking Benitez of all people.

But in this case I think its a bit rich to be jumping to the worst possible conclusions about the situation judged purely on players' reactions on the pitch. Wait to hear about a possible injury/tirednes or any other explanation, then when in possession of the facts flame away to your heart's content.

As for me being constantly on the same page as Alan, well thats just plain wrong, believe me. I'd say this is the first time ever in my time posting here that I've agreed with the guy two days in a row, usually its the opposite.

I had a much kinder and more thought out response ready but then firefox crashed so I will keept it brief.

Ignoring starts ....now.....ah no.

Bare in mind Rafa has made plenty of questionable decisions in his Liverpool career - certainly more than his fair shar as a top 4 (yeah, yeah) manager imo. The only thing to take from this is that, depending on your point of view (genral Liverpool fan or Alan:)), he has actually be given alot of leighway.

He now has the option of saying the substitution was injury-related due to an icepack. Apart from the fact Torres used one in the Sunderland game I would also point out that players get treatment after games all the time even when it is only little niggly things like cramp or bruising. Rafa now has the option of saying it was because of injury rather than for Benfica and nobody (within the club anyway) is going to disagree with him.

flahavaj wrote: »

But Torres is immune from being substituted based on previous performances?;)

Something like 18 goals in 21 games this season? I mean he can be petulant at time but yes, Torres certainly warrants far less criticism this season than Gerrard - of course he does!

Was that your point?

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

Was a tongue in cheek observation

I know you've had a tough afternoon, but unclench and for the umpteenth time think before you type.;)

Sure thing :rolleyes:

niallo27

noodler wrote: »

I had a much kinder and more thought out response ready but then firefox crashed so I will keept it brief.

Ignoring starts ....now.....ah no.

Bare in mind Rafa has made plenty of questionable decisions in his Liverpool career - certainly more than his fair shar as a top 4 (yeah, yeah) manager imo. The only thing to take from this is that, depending on your point of view (genral Live:)), he has actually be given alot of leighway.

He now has the option of saying the substitution was injury-related due to an icepack. Apart from the fact Torres used one in the Sunderland game I would also point out that players get treatment after games all the time even when it is only little niggly things like cramp or bruising. Rafa now has the option of saying it was because of injury rather than for Benfica and nobody (within the club anyway) is going to disagree with him.





Something like 18 goals in 21 games this season? I mean he can be petulant at time but yes, Torres certainly warrants far less criticism this season than Gerrard - of course he does!

Was that your point?

Do you remember a similar sitution with torres against fulham earlier in the season, same reaction, when was his next game after that.

monkey9

Rafa has said he took Torres off cos he was exhausted and brought N'gog on to provide more energy!!

niallo27

monkey9 wrote: »

Rafa has said he took Torres off cos he was exhausted and brought N'gog on to provide more energy!!

He did look exhausted after Thursday night

Le King

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Sure thing :rolleyes:

Take flah's advice. We don't want another unnecessary drama unfolding again.

jaykay74

Benitez on the game: "It was a great performance, we had a great chance in the first-half and in the second-half you can see at the end we have a lot of chances. It was a silly goal, when you concede, it is not the best but in this way it's the worst. The reaction of the team was good, we were attacking and creating a lot of chances. We are disappointed because it was a good performance."

Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez on the decision to take off Torres: "He was exhausted, we played 60 minutes with 10 players the other day. Ngog was good for us because he was a pair of fresh legs. His movement was good for the team."

noodler

monkey9 wrote: »

Rafa has said he took Torres off cos he was exhausted and brought N'gog on to provide more energy!!

I have no problem with N'Gog coming on.

So is it wrong to keep a player on who feels fine to stay on because you think he is tired? In a game of this magnitude?

Now that injury thing has been taken out of the equation like Gerrard and Torres' reactions suggested.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

I had a much kinder and more thought out response ready but then firefox crashed so I will keept it brief.

Ignoring starts ....now.....ah no.

Bare in mind Rafa has made plenty of questionable decisions in his Liverpool career - certainly more than his fair shar as a top 4 (yeah, yeah) manager imo. The only thing to take from this is that, depending on your point of view (genral Liverpool fan or Alan:)), he has actually be given alot of leighway.

He now has the option of saying the substitution was injury-related due to an icepack. Apart from the fact Torres used one in the Sunderland game I would also point out that players get treatment after games all the time even when it is only little niggly things like cramp or bruising. Rafa now has the option of saying it was because of injury rather than for Benfica and nobody (within the club anyway) is going to disagree with him.





Something like 18 goals in 21 games this season? I mean he can be petulant at time but yes, Torres certainly warrants far less criticism this season than Gerrard - of course he does!

Was that your point?

No, wrt to Torres I was jokingly saying that in the same way that Gerrard wasn't above criticism in a season that hes played well regardless of his great showings in previous seasons, Torres isn't above being subbed off in a game where hes done little, regardless of his showings in previous matches.

Otherwise I think we have little else to say to one another on the substitution topic. I doubt either of us going to change our minds.
I wasn't trying to wind you up honestly.

flahavaj

jaykay74 wrote: »

Benitez on the game: "It was a great performance, we had a great chance in the first-half and in the second-half you can see at the end we have a lot of chances. It was a silly goal, when you concede, it is not the best but in this way it's the worst. The reaction of the team was good, we were attacking and creating a lot of chances. We are disappointed because it was a good performance."

Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez on the decision to take off Torres: "He was exhausted, we played 60 minutes with 10 players the other day. Ngog was good for us because he was a pair of fresh legs. His movement was good for the team."

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

No, wrt to Torres I was jokingly saying that in the same way that Gerrard wasn't above criticism in a season that hes played well regardless of his great showings in previous seasons, Torres isn't above being subbed off in a game where hes done little, regardless of his showings in previous matches.

Otherwise I think we have little else to say to one another on the substitution topic. I doubt either of us going to change our minds.
I wasn't trying to wind you up honestly.

Oh, well come on, 18 goals in 21 games? Most of us would still not take Gerrard off in games because there is the chance he will do something, even if it has been less likely this season.

Is Torres above being subbed? If he isn't injured, is in the form he is currently in and we need a goal badly enough then I wouldn't sub him is all I would say.

Former Great

Cheer up lads the pool will still get 4 th

Mezcita

Former Great wrote: »

Cheer up lads the pool will still get 4 th

Eh...... no.

niallo27

flahavaj wrote: »

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

He is doing an interview which he has to do straight after a frustrating match, who cares what he says to sky or any of them muppets

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

Nope.

He wasn't injured and obviously felt fine to stay on, N'Gog should have came on for somebody else.

I am also disappointed that the Europa league is forcing our best players to be subbed 60 minutes into PL games rather than the otherway round to be honest.

Anyway, I still completely disagree with the decision. I personally think he sometimes want to prove the squad is as strong as the first eleven.

niallo27

Mezcita wrote: »

Eh...... no.

If anyone thinks city are gonna walk 4th they're deluded

Sunday, 11 April 2010

Man City v Birmingham, 16:00
Saturday, 17 April 2010

Man City v Man Utd, 12:45
Saturday, 24 April 2010

Arsenal v Man City, 17:30
Saturday, 1 May 2010

Man City v Aston Villa, 15:00
Wednesday, 5 May 2010

Man City v Tottenham, 20:00
Sunday, 9 May 2010

West Ham v Man City, 15:00

opr

flahavaj wrote: »

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

Of course it is fine in the context of why he made the substitution today. Torres ran his heart out on Thursday when we went down to ten and as a result he did look to be running on fumes towards the end of today's game. I would still have kept him on the pitch but its certainly reasonable to have substituted him.

The bigger question is should he have been playing on Thursday ? My answer to that is 100% NO.

Opr

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Oh, well come on, 18 goals in 21 games? Most of us would still not take Gerrard off in games because there is the chance he will do something, even if it has been less likely this season.

Is Torres above being subbed? If he isn't injured, is in the form he is currently in and we need a goal badly enough then I wouldn't sub him is all I would say.

It was a light hearted enough comment mate.

He was wrecked tired. Liverpool played better after he came off. Its not the scandalous decision you'd swear it was in the match thread judging by the reactions. N'Gog came on and looked very lively.

If anything he (Torres) should've been rested for the Benfica match tbh.

niallo27

opr wrote: »

Of course it is reasonable in the context of why he made the substitution today. Torres ran his heart out on Thursday when we went down to ten and as a result did look to be running on fumes towards the end of today's game.

The bigger question is should he have been playing on Thursday ? My answer to that is 100% NO.

Opr

Liverpool need a trophy, how was rafa to know we would go down to ten men, always play the best team we can, we are not villa

flahavaj

Former Great wrote: »

Cheer up lads the pool will still get 4 th

Agreed.

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

It was a light hearted enough comment mate.

He was wrecked tired. Liverpool played better after he came off. Its not the scandalous decision you'd swear it was in the match thread judging by the reactions. N'Gog came on and looked very lively.

If anything he (Torres) should've been rested for the Benfica match tbh.

Again, I must point out that you never touched the tired angle until Rafa said it. I am sure plenty of the players were tired after playing with 10 men on Thursday.

Simple issue of needs must.

Former Great

Mezcita wrote: »

Eh...... no.

Have u looked at the teams run ins , it will be tight but liverpool will do it..

Mezcita

niallo27 wrote: »

If anyone thinks city are gonna walk 4th they're deluded

Sunday, 11 April 2010

Man City v Birmingham, 16:00
Saturday, 17 April 2010

Man City v Man Utd, 12:45
Saturday, 24 April 2010

Arsenal v Man City, 17:30
Saturday, 1 May 2010

Man City v Aston Villa, 15:00
Wednesday, 5 May 2010

Man City v Tottenham, 20:00
Sunday, 9 May 2010

West Ham v Man City, 15:00

Don't think they will walk it. Extra game to play. Four points clear with better goal difference. Seems straight forward enough.

NukaCola

flahavaj wrote: »

If anything he (Torres) should've been rested for the Benfica match tbh.

Agree 100% with that.

Would have kept him on today though and give him more support by switching to 4-4-2 with N'Gog up top with him. Tired or not we needed him on IMO.

missingtime

flahavaj wrote: »

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

Yup. Seems logical.

I didn't see the first half but I though after Torres came off we seemed to have loads more chances.

I really wanted Ngog to score just for Rafas sake more than anything.

opr

niallo27 wrote: »

Liverpool need a trophy, how was rafa to know we would go down to ten men, always play the best team we can, we are not villa

Is this why the top 4 all play their best teams in the carling cup :rolleyes:

You prioritize what is important and getting that 4th spot is infinitely more important than the Europa league. Its up to the manager to best use his resources to ensure this happens and Rafa has completely ****ed that up!

Opr