Birmingham v Liverpool match thread - Mod Warning #432 & #446

niallo27

opr wrote: »

Is this why the top 4 all play their best teams in the carling cup :rolleyes:

You prioritize what is important and getting that 4th spot is infinitely more important than the Europa league. Its up to the manager to best use his resources to ensure this happens and Rafa has completely ****ed that up!

Opr

Carling cup is a mickey mouse tournament, did you honestly want him to play a weakened side last thursday

K-9

niallo27 wrote: »

If anyone thinks city are gonna walk 4th they're deluded

Sunday, 11 April 2010

Man City v Birmingham, 16:00
Saturday, 17 April 2010

Man City v Man Utd, 12:45
Saturday, 24 April 2010

Arsenal v Man City, 17:30
Saturday, 1 May 2010

Man City v Aston Villa, 15:00
Wednesday, 5 May 2010

Man City v Tottenham, 20:00
Sunday, 9 May 2010

West Ham v Man City, 15:00

Have you looked at Villas?

Pool need to win the last 5, including Chelsea and hope City take 10 points or less. 68 may do it, but that means City taking 8 or less. Hopefully they'll draw the big games

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Again, I must point out that you never touched the tired angle until Rafa said it. I am sure plenty of the players were tired after playing with 10 men on Thursday.

Simple issue of needs must.

Well in fairness the point I've been making ad nauseum is not to jump to conclusions till we find out more about whats been going on. So speculating about tiredness before I myself knew the facts would have been a bit self-contradictory, wouldn't it.;)

And yes other players must've been tired, in fact two of them, Masch and Agger were rested. Torres ran himself ragged on Thursday, playing alone up front is evergy sapping at best, not to mention when another front player gets sent off.

As I said if Benitez has made any error of judgement this week it was playing Torres in both games. Although as others have said he couldn't have predicted the red card etc.

flahavaj

niallo27 wrote: »

Carling cup is a mickey mouse tournament, did you honestly want him to play a weakened side last thursday

So is the UEFA Cup or whatever they call it now, lets be blunt about it.

BERBA

Thank you Birmingham , from all at Tottenham Hotspur !

opr

niallo27 wrote: »

Carling cup is a mickey mouse tournament, did you honestly want him to play a weakened side last thursday

Mate when we dropped into the Europa cup I actually thought it was a perfect opportunity to see the likes of Pacheco and other fringe players getting some real competitive game experience in a European competition. Most of the talk from fans before we played the first match was geared towards this and it was only when it seemed Rafa was taking the competition seriously so did alot of fans.

Playing a full strength side in the Europa league when its to the detriment of any of our league games while we can still achieve 4th borders on insanity imo!

Opr

niallo27

flahavaj wrote: »

So is the UEFA Cup or whatever they call it now, lets be blunt about it.

No i dont agree, a trip to hamburg in may, be a great few days

monkey9

flahavaj wrote: »

Do people find Rafa's explanation reasonable?

Well, i find the explanation reasonable enough, alright. I said it at half time that we looked comfortable without really providing a goal threat. Torres looked lethargic throughout.

We created more after the substitution was made. You could argue that this may have happened anyway with the natural momentum swinging our way as we looked to push forward for the win.

Would Torres have put away the chances that N'gog had today? Probably. Would they have occured if Torres had stayed on? Who knows!!

You could admire Rafa's strength in his belief of what he was doing cos he must have known the criticism that would come his way, but made the substitution anyway.

Rafa made the decision he made and in terms of winning the match, it didn't pay off. It's not a decision that i would have made. I was just more shocked than anything.

niallo27

opr wrote: »

Mate when we dropped into the Europa cup I actually thought it was a perfect opportunity to see the likes of Pacheco and other fringe players getting some real competitive game experience in a European competition. Most of the talk from fans before we played the first match was geared towards this and it was only when it seemed Rafa was taking the competition seriously so did alot of fans.

Playing a full strength side in the Europa league when its to the detriment of any of our league games while we can still achieve 4th borders on insanity imo!

Opr

Do you think rafa is damned if you does play a strong side and damned if you doesnt play a strong side

flahavaj

niallo27 wrote: »

No i dont agree, a trip to hamburg in may, be a great few days

Not at the expense of trips to Barca, Milan or Madrid the folowing year.;)

copacetic

flahavaj wrote: »

Liverpool played better after he came off. Its not the scandalous decision you'd swear it was in the match thread judging by the reactions. N'Gog came on and looked very lively.

Don't agree with subbing of Torres, but more chances were created with N'gog on. He just should have been on as well as Torres not instead of. Torres may have finished one of the many chances, but has missed plenty himself late on recently.

Torres should have been taken off with 25 left on Thursday, not today. In general the 2.5 day turnaround between games isn't ideal though. I'd like to see Torres on bench this Thursday and not brought on unless needed.

The result today took a lot of the pressure off City but it's not quite over yet.

opr

niallo27 wrote: »

Do you think rafa is damned if you does play a strong side and damned if you doesnt play a strong side

No any level headed reasonable Liverpool fan would have clearly understood had Rafa fielded a weakened side in the Europa league. I would go so far as to say most would have expected it.

Opr

niallo27

opr wrote: »

No any level headed reasonable Liverpool fan would have clearly understood had Rafa fielded a weakened side in the Europa league. I would go so far as to say most would have expected it.

Opr

Well i think im level headed and i want to see a full side out in europe, interesting to see what other people think

copacetic

niallo27 wrote: »

Well i think im level headed and i want to see a full side out in europe, interesting to see what other people think

At this stage I'd prefer if we'd gone out in the last round after playing a reserve side v Lille.

abouttobebanned

Man utd fan here. Liverpool will just do enough to get 4th. Kudos to those liverpool fans who are ashamed of the Europa cup.

Jazzy

oh bother

Hoki

BERBA wrote: »

Thank you Birmingham , from all at Tottenham Hotspur !

Ha like Spurs were/are ever going to have the bottle to get 4th, also it aint Liverpool ye gotta worry about

CR 7

niallo27

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Ronnie whelan brilliant analysis as usual i suspect, get a real job son if you know so much

flahavaj

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

I'm sure Gerrard's teammates have had that same perplexed look on their faces several times this season in light of his poor performances.

copacetic

as much as ronnie is a muppet, the looks on Torres and Gerrards faces said it all really.

niallo27

copacetic wrote: »

as much as ronnie is a muppet, the looks on Torres and Gerrards faces said it all really.

Yes but who is calling the shots, gerrard or the manger, the substitution worked it opened up the game

flahavaj

copacetic wrote: »

as much as ronnie is a muppet, the looks on Torres and Gerrards faces said it all really.

What did it say?

Torres was unhappy to be taken off. Good, you'd expect as much.

As for Gerrard, he should have looked relieved it wasn't him.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

I'm sure Gerrard's teammates have had that same perplexed look on their faces several times this season in light of his poor performances.

So you dont think Gerrard's look was justified given Torres was taking off reasonably early. Torres by that look doesnt think he should have been taken off. So why shift the emphasis about Gerrards past performances. Not relevant here.

copacetic

flahavaj wrote: »

What did it say?

Torres was unhappy to be taken off. Good, you'd expect as much.

As for Gerrard, he should have looked relieved it wasn't him.

To me it said the same as I thought at the time. 'what the fuck?'. There was no need to take Torres off to bring N'gog on. We desperately need a win, and Torres is by far the most likely to score.

Gerrard played well today.

flahavaj

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So you dont think Gerrard's look was justified given Torres was taking off reasonably early. Torres by that look doesnt think he should have been taken off. So why shift the emphasis about Gerrards past performances. Not relevant here.

My point is that Gerrard would be well advised worrying about his own total lack of form than his manager's decisions. Or do you think Rafa should take into account what Steven Gerrard thinks when he makes tactical selections?

As for Torres, no player ever thinks they should be taken off. Look at Fabregas the other night.

CR 7

flahavaj wrote: »

My point is that Gerrard would be well advised worrying about his own total lack of form than his manager's decisions. Or do you think Rafa should take into account what Steven Gerrard thinks when he makes tactical selections?

As for Torres, no player ever thinks they should be taken off. Look at Fabregas the other night.

Do you think it was the right decision? Based on what we know for a fact, (no proof Torres needed to come off due to injury) it was not.

flahavaj

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Do you think it was the right decision? Based on what we know for a fact, (no proof Torres needed to come off due to injury) it was not.

As with most arguments of this nature its not black and white, there is no right and wrong per se.

I think it was an understandable decision given the amount of running Torres did on Thursday. I think that N'Gog his replacement looked far more lively and Liverpool as a team, performed far better after the substitution. But on the other hand he fluffed a couple of chances that Torres would have buried. But would thay have made those chances if the substitution hadn't been made? Its very complicated as I said, its not black and white.

IMO Benitez was justified in making the descision he did. His reasoning was sound. He certainly doesn't deserve the outpouring of criticism he received in the match thread.

As I have already said, the major error Rafa made was starting him in Portugal or not taking him off early over there. Getting 4th should have been prioritised over the UEFA cup IMO. But even then he coudlnt have predicted that Babel would be sent off and that Torres would have so much more running to do.

daithijjj

Back in november plenty of liverpool and other fans were calling whelan a muppet for suggesting aquilani wouldnt be fit till january, like they have any fking idea. Whelan does talk some rubbish but he knows football, bob paisley tought him that second is nowhere and he holds those values today. There was a poll brought out months ago of liverpool fans who ovwerwhelmingly said the europa cup is not as important as the fa cup, nevermind the league.

I couldnt give a fiddlers about the europa cup personally, its a mutation of a competition for 'losers' and cl teams who lose out shouldnt be in it, (different debate i know).

Would it kill benitez to play 2 strikers?. By the way, criticise gerrard all ye want, doesnt bother me really, today in the last 20 mins of that game he put enough good balls in that box and some excellent passes that were enough to win 2 games.

3 points is what we needed today, i agree with the poster/s that the reserves should have played every match in the europa cup.

People can have their idle day to day opinions of rafa, that comes with the territory of being a football fan, BUT when you look to the faces of our 2 best players during that substitution today, there is a fundamental problem between the manger and his communication with his players.

copacetic

flahavaj wrote: »

My point is that Gerrard would be well advised worrying about his own total lack of form than his manager's decisions.

Thats a pretty rubbish point considering he scored and set up a pile of chances for others today.

flahavaj

copacetic wrote: »

Thats a pretty rubbish point considering he scored and set up a pile of chances for others today.

Granted he played quite well today and has improved in recent games. But you get the point about his general form. it wouldn't be hard to improve on what little form hes had this season tbh.

Mr Alan

are people still arguing about Rafa taking Torres off? simple question should answer it, had Torres contributed **** all to the game?did he look likely to do so? Did taking him off improve improve Liverpools performance? Did the player who came on play well? Were plenty of chances created to score a winner as a result of the change? Good substitution, personally i would have left Torres on and prayed he did something amazing to score, thankfully i'm not our manager. he viewed the situation, made a tactical change that should have won us the game.

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

are people still arguing about Rafa taking Torres off? simple question should answer it, had Torres contributed **** all to the game?did he look likely to do so? Did taking him off improve improve Liverpools performance? Did the player who came on play well? Were plenty of chances created to score a winner as a result of the change? Good substitution, personally i would have left Torres on and prayed he did something amazing to score, thankfully i'm not our manager. he viewed the situation, made a tactical change that should have won us the game.

We moved on from that a while back if you read the thread. Most people know the pro's/con's of the sub but thanks for pointing them out! The issue I and others have is that he would have been fresh as a daisy for today with no reason to be taken off had he not played midweek.

Opr

jaykay74

opr wrote: »

We moved on from that a while back if you read the thread. Most people know the pro's/con's of the sub but thanks for pointing them out! The issue I and others have is that he would have been fresh as a daisy for today with no reason to be taken off had he not played midweek.

Opr

Have to agree with this. I thought all Liverpool fans were in agreement that 4th place should be the priority over the europa cup for the short to med term future of the club both financially and to keep the better players happy. Why risk 4th spot for europa cup as Rafa has done ?

Mr Alan

OPR, will ya give me a link to all those giving out being outraged when the team was announced on Thurs please. Presume you's were, and this outrage isn't just on the back of todays result?

mailburner

more points dropped?
i dont know
none of the top teams have gone to brum
and actually won
its sept since any team won there in the league
and pool were odds on to win this which was
crazy odds (5/6)
mind you arsenal failed last week at odds of 4/9

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

My point is that Gerrard would be well advised worrying about his own total lack of form than his manager's decisions. Or do you think Rafa should take into account what Steven Gerrard thinks when he makes tactical selections?

As for Torres, no player ever thinks they should be taken off. Look at Fabregas the other night.

Do you think Rafa was given his team a fighting chance by taking Torres off with twenty minutes or so to go. Do you not think Gerrard's reaction as such was not justified.

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

OPR, will ya give me a link to all those giving out being outraged when the team was announced on Thurs please. Presume you's were, and this outrage isn't just on the back of todays result?

Whether people on Thursday pointed out that playing a full team was a mistake or not isn't the issue. Rafa gets paid a very large sum of money to analyse our situation and come up with the big decisions that effects our club. I don't feel that any of the other top 4 mangers would have put any emphasis on the Europa cup other than Rafa.

I agree that its all very well for me to sit here on my high horse with the benefit of hindsight and say Torres shouldn't have played midweek but I honestly feel its something Rafa should have known. Its not my job to pick the team, its the managers and as such he lives and dies by those decisions. He got it wrong and as such I feel well entitled to have a pop this time as its something that solely falls upon his head which I feel he has got hugely wrong. No money problems, no injury problems, no owner problems etc, blame lies solely with Rafa and a basic tactical ineptitude to analyse a situation and come up with the correct decision.

Hand on heart I have said since day one with friends that I don't understand the decision to play full strength teams in the Europa cup. My thoughts would have been solely on the league if I was manager and how best to get 4th which would never include playing the team we did on Thursday.

Opr

Mr Alan

who do you think knows best, you or Rafa? genuine question. Rafa had no way of knowing that babel would be sent off on Thurs resulting in everyone having to put in a bigger shift than usual, or that we'd spurn 5 or 6 good chances today.

Peyton Manning

Torres was quiet, and looked tired - understandably so, having been kicked about the place on Thursday. N'gog has improved tremendously for Liverpool, and has gotten some key goals this season. Why on earth are people questioning the decision?

Spiritoftheseventies

Mr Alan wrote: »

who do you think knows best, you or Rafa? genuine question. Rafa had no way of knowing that babel would be sent off on Thurs resulting in everyone having to put in a bigger shift than usual, or that we'd spurn 5 or 6 good chances today.

Or that we would lose ten games.Or that we would fail to make the knockout stages of Champions league. Or that we would be knocked out by Reading in the cup. etc etc. Make all the excuses you want Mr Alan our bad season is catching up with us.

Mr Alan

wat ya mean catching up wit us? it's been quite obvious for quite some time this season was a total ****in write off with Uefa Cup and 4th our best possible outcome, still a good chance of gettin that.

whatawaster

Archimedes wrote: »

Torres was quiet, and looked tired - understandably so, having been kicked about the place on Thursday. N'gog has improved tremendously for Liverpool, and has gotten some key goals this season. Why on earth are people questioning the decision?

Torres looking tired and quiet, as anyone who has watched Liverpool over the last 2 years knows, does not stop him being our number one goal threat.

N'Gog has improved, i'd question if he's gotten many KEY goals this season, but really for me it's a question of why one had to come off for the other to come on. Why 4231 is so ingrained in our play. We aren't versatile or unpredictable enough.

The fact was, we needed to score a goal. Torres was our most likely goalscorer, even given his performance today. If Rafa wanted to bring on N'Gog - it should have been for Maxi, Yossi or Kuyt.

Torres clearly felt able to continue. Let him run himself to exhaustion today and leave him out on Thursday.

Mr Alan

as Rafa said, Torres did run himself to exhaustion today. the sub was a good one, and we dominated and created loads of chances today after it was made

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

as Rafa said, Torres did run himself to exhaustion today.

He clearly felt able to continue. I doubt Torres communicated to Rafa that he was exhausted, given his reaction to the substitution

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

who do you think knows best, you or Rafa? genuine question. Rafa had no way of knowing that babel would be sent off on Thurs resulting in everyone having to put in a bigger shift than usual, or that we'd spurn 5 or 6 good chances today.

In normal circumstances I would back Rafa's decision making to the hilt but I just feel at this point in time with the circus that is Liverpool and other things that are going on around him I now worry about his decisions and how rationally he is thinking.

Listen if we had nicked a goal today chances are I wouldn't be here on my soapbox about this issue but even if we had won today it still wouldn't change that personally I don't think we should be playing full teams in the Europa league. Its to the detriment of our league campaign regardless of what happened on Thursday night.

Opr

Sir Gallagher

Mr Alan wrote: »

as Rafa said, Torres did run himself to exhaustion today. the sub was a good one, and we dominated and created loads of chances today after it was made

You should go into PR man, Max Clifford hasn't got a patch on you :pac:

Mr Alan

whatawaster wrote: »

He clearly felt able to continue. I doubt Torres communicated to Rafa that he was exhausted, given his reaction to the substitution

I wouldn't imagine many players ever think they're not able to continue, egotistical as they are by nature. Do you think our general play improved after the sub was made? Did we create more or less chances before or after it was made? Was ngog the creator of and at the end of more chances than Torres?

flahavaj

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Do you think Rafa was given his team a fighting chance by taking Torres off with twenty minutes or so to go. Do you not think Gerrard's reaction as such was not justified.

My posts on this topic have been frequent so you know the answer to the first question.

I'm not interested in Gerrard's reaction tbh.

Do you think Rafa should take into account what Stevie will think when he makes substitution from now on?

Mr Alan

opr wrote: »

In normal circumstances I would back Rafa's decision making to the hilt but I just feel at this point in time with the circus that is Liverpool and other things that are going on around him I now worry about his decisions and how rationally he is thinking.

Considering we improved ten fold after he made the sub and he had the guts to take off our star player and we should have won the game as a result of the change if we'd converted one of our many chances, i'd hazard a guess he is thinking more rationally than most on here who would have left Torres on and hoped for the best.