Birmingham v Liverpool match thread - Mod Warning #432 & #446

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine many players ever think they're not able to continue, egotistical as they are by nature. Do you think our general play improved after the sub was made? Did we create more or less chances before or after it was made? Was ngog the creator of and at the end of more chances than Torres?

Two things:

1. I think N'Gog did well when he came on, though his finishing wasn't great. I would have brought N'Gog, Babel and Aquilani on. But i would have left Nando on and taken Lucas, Kuyt and Yossi off

2. Why was Torres left on the pitch so long on Thursday? Everything should have been done to ensure he was in perfect condition for today, agreed? One of our two really tricky league games left. When we went down to ten men and were a goal up, Torres should have been taken off early if we were going to be left with this situation today.

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

Considering we improved ten fold after he made the sub and he had the guts to take off our star player and we should have won the game as a result of the change if we'd converted one of our many chances, i'd hazard a guess he is thinking more rationally than most on here who would have left Torres on and hoped for the best.

Exactly. He should in fact be applauded for having the balls to make a big call.

I'd prefer a manager to do that, than simply do nothing and hope for the best.

Mr Alan

whatawaster wrote: »

Two things:

1. I think N'Gog did well when he came on, though his finishing wasn't great. I would have brought N'Gog, Babel and Aquilani on. But i would have left Nando on and taken Lucas, Kuyt and Yossi off

2. Why was Torres left on the pitch so long on Thursday? Everything should have been done to ensure he was in perfect condition for today, agreed? One of our two really tricky league games left. When we went down to ten men and were a goal up, Torres should have been taken off early if we were going to be left with this situation today.

Were you calling for Torres to be taken off early in the match thread on Thurs? Or is this another call being made with the benefit of hindsight? Answer me this, do you think we created enough chances today to win the game?

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

Considering we improved ten fold after he made the sub and he had the guts to take off our star player and we should have won the game as a result of the change if we'd converted one of our many chances, i'd hazard a guess he is thinking more rationally than most on here who would have left Torres on and hoped for the best.

Good point and I do admire his courage of convictions knowing full well the backlash that was coming if we didn't manage to score. That said I worry that maybe in the back of his mind he was thinking about Thursday when making the sub.

Either way it doesn't exonerate him from the fact that he shouldn't have played Torres midweek. Our priority is the league and while we are still in contention for 4th he shouldn't be playing in the Europa cup along with most of our players imo.

Opr

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

Were you calling for Torres to be taken off early in the match thread on Thurs? Or is this another call being made with the benefit of hindsight? Answer me this, do you think we created enough chances today to win the game?

No, but had i been privy to more information, and known that it would be a struggle for him to play 90 minutes 3 days later then i would have been.

Yes. Most of them when we were chasing the game at the end. With our best finisher on the bench. We should have had Torres and N'Gog/Kuyt up front at the end.

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

My point is that Gerrard would be well advised worrying about his own total lack of form than his manager's decisions. Or do you think Rafa should take into account what Steven Gerrard thinks when he makes tactical selections?

As for Torres, no player ever thinks they should be taken off. Look at Fabregas the other night.

Again I direct you to the previous instances where Rafa has put out strange line-ups or subbed people at strange times. You are a Utd fan so you might not know but he has had prior.

Mr Alan wrote: »

are people still arguing about Rafa taking Torres off? simple question should answer it, had Torres contributed **** all to the game?did he look likely to do so? Did taking him off improve improve Liverpools performance? Did the player who came on play well? Were plenty of chances created to score a winner as a result of the change? Good substitution, personally i would have left Torres on and prayed he did something amazing to score, thankfully i'm not our manager. he viewed the situation, made a tactical change that should have won us the game.

I honestly think we are maybe overdoing the causailty issues here. N'Gog didn't exactly create the chances - he missed them.

The one where Gerrard released him late on or when he was et up at point-blank range for example. I would have put my house on Torres to score them - tired or not.

Perhaps Aqualani should have come on earlier, started maybe? I am really at a loss to his current situation.

What do you say to putting on N'Gog for someone else? I certainly feel Maxi, Kuyt or Yossi could have comfortably come off with no great loss of service.

Mr Alan wrote: »

who do you think knows best, you or Rafa? genuine question.

Bit crap really, why is there a football board then? I mean the managers are always right etc.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Again I direct you to the previous instances where Rafa has put out strange line-ups or subbed people at strange times. You are a Utd fan so you might not know but he has had prior.

I am aware of that alright and its a fair point.

5ForKeeps

noodler wrote: »

Bit crap really, why is there a football board then? I mean the managers are always right etc.

That's why he is manager of Liverpool Football Club, two time La Liga winning manager, UEFA Cup winning manager and a European Cup winning manager. While you are posting on a forum moaning over a sub which on any other day with a bit more luck and finishing from N'gog would have being praised like he was when Lucas won the derby 3 years ago after replacing Steven Gerrard, I think Rafael Benitez knows more about Liverpool Football Club and football in general than all posters on any football forum across the land. Just like Bill Shankly, Benitez has the ruthlessness needed to be the manager of our club.

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

I am aware of that alright and its a fair point.

The only reason I bring it up is to argue against any idea that Liverpool fans are going nuts after a single questionable decision by the manager - thats all. Not saying all the questionable ones were wrong.

noodler

5ForKeeps wrote: »

That's why he is manager of Liverpool Football Club, two time La Liga winning manager, UEFA Cup winning manager and a European Cup winning manager. While you are posting on a forum, I think Rafael Benitez knows more about Liverpool Football Club and football in general than all posters on any football forum across the land.

I have to just rinse and repeat my previous point here.

Do you want to just logout there and never come back? Is that what you are suggesting? Every manager, player and member of staff at a football club in the EPL is more qualifiied than us - does that mean we shouldn't debate any of their decisions or actions?

What, honestly, reprucussions would that have for debate?

Christ I hope you don't apply the same argument to politics.

K-9

flahavaj wrote: »

I am aware of that alright and its a fair point.

He has subbed Torres a couple of times this season, one in particular seemed baffling but it turned out he had a knock. Think Torres wanted to continue then too.

This one is more baffling though. While I like NGog, he is hardly a good finisher. Agree we created more chances after the substitution, but I think we all know Torres could have been kept on and somebody else subbed. If anything NGog would have helped take the pressure of Torres.

I don't know. I've understand his Torres substitutions before, this one seems mad considering the importance of the game.

noodler

K-9 wrote: »

If anything NGog would have helped take the pressure of Torres.

I was just thinking that would work vice-versa as well tbh. I didn't see the boos coming from the crowd but everyone plays better when Torres is playing.

Mr Alan

opr wrote: »

Either way it doesn't exonerate him from the fact that he shouldn't have played Torres midweek. Our priority is the league and while we are still in contention for 4th he shouldn't be playing in the Europa cup along with most of our players imo.

Opr

I literally don't remember a single person on here saying we should not play Torres on Thurs. No offence, but you yourself have admitted you wouldn't be saying that here now if we'd won the game today which we should have(although you say you'd still hold the view). surely you can see why I find that a little bit annoying when its used as a criticism of the manager?

5ForKeeps

noodler wrote: »

I have to just rinse and repeat my previous point here.

Do you want to just logout there and never come back? Is that what you are suggesting? Every manager, player and member of staff at a football club in the EPL is more qualifiied than us - does that mean we shouldn't debate any of their decisions or actions?

What, honestly, reprucussions would that have for debate?

Christ I hope you don't apply the same argument to politics.

It was tongue and cheek mate my comment really, still they didn't get to there positions by walking in and asking for the job like we could do. Like any walk of life you need the proper qualifications for the specific field in football now unless you have a UEFA Pro Licence you cannot manage at senior level even in the LOI we wouldn't have a chance of managing a side. We criticise and all that but the reprucussions will be that some of our supporters don't see the bigger picture with regards to LFC at the moment as highlighted by Mr. Alan throughout this thread.

I regards to politics I have no affiliation to me they are all corrupt and allowed what has happened with the banks to **** all of us right up the arse.

herbieflowers

So Liverpool aren't reliant on Torres, then? :pac:

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

I literally don't remember a single person on here saying we should not play Torres on Thurs. No offence, but you yourself have admitted you wouldn't be saying that here now if we'd won the game today which we should have(although you say you'd still hold the view). surely you can see why I find that a little bit annoying when its used as a criticism of the manager?

Torres should only have been played on Thursday to the extent that he could play 90 minutes today.

If we'd won today, if N'Gog had scored, it would still have been a poor, high-risk decision. It may have, and nearly did, come off, but it was still a low-percentage, high-risk move

K-9

5ForKeeps wrote: »

It was tongue and cheek mate my comment really, still they didn't get to there positions by walking in and asking for the job like we could do. Like any walk of life you need the proper qualifications for the specific field in football now unless you have a UEFA Pro Licence you cannot manage at senior level even in the LOI we wouldn't have a chance of managing a side. We criticise and all that but the reprucussions will be that some of our supporters don't see the bigger picture with regards to LFC at the moment as highlighted by Mr. Alan throughout this thread.

I regards to politics I have no affiliation to me they are all corrupt and allowed what has happened with the banks to **** all of us right up the arse.

The issues surrounding the club had a bearing on the Torres substitution?

noodler

5ForKeeps wrote: »

It was tongue and cheek mate my comment really, still they didn't get to there positions by walking in and asking for the job like we could do. Like any walk of life you need the proper qualifications for the specific field in football now unless you have a UEFA Pro Licence you cannot manage at senior level even in the LOI we wouldn't have a chance of managing a side. We criticise and all that but the reprucussions will be that some of our supporters don't see the bigger picture with regards to LFC at the moment as highlighted by Mr. Alan throughout this thread.

I have no opinion on politics as they are all corrupt and allowed what has happened with the banks to **** all of us right up the arse.

They ALL have qualifications though - have you never criticised a footballer or manager?

I think it is incredibly condescending to say to Liverpool fans that they don't see the bigger picture. We deserve alot better for the faith which has been shown.

If there are fans out there who feel that we even further away from the EPL than when Rafa took over then that doesn't automatically make them bad fans or even fans that are "blind" to the bigger picture.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

The only reason I bring it up is to argue against any idea that Liverpool fans are going nuts after a single questionable decision by the manager - thats all. Not saying all the questionable ones were wrong.

Sure after last nights debate we know ye are well able to go nuts even after an innocuous statement by the man.:pac:;)

5ForKeeps

herbieflowers wrote: »

So Liverpool aren't reliant on Torres, then? :pac:

Just like United reliant on Rooney, Chelsea on Malouda lately, Barca on Messi, Madrid on Ronaldo.

Every club is reliant on their star player it just manages to happen we have Fernando Torres who we got on a bargain while other clubs paid 35 and 60 million on donkeys.

Chardee MacDennis

I can't believe I am agreeing with flahavaj but my god I hate a few of the Liverpool fans here; Omg torres didn't finish the game and we didn't win obviously rafa is an idiot, I mean look at gerrards reaction :eek: cause he sums up how we feel about the club this year...

I think if some people here ran the team torres maybe dead due to playing 90mins evey game since joining the club.

noodler

BastardPrince wrote: »

I can't believe I am agreeing with flahavaj but my god I hate a few of the Liverpool fans here; Omg torres didn't finish the game and we didn't win obviously rafa is an idiot, I mean look at gerrards reaction :eek: cause he sums up how we feel about the club this year...

I think if some people here ran the team torres maybe dead due to playing 90mins evey game since joining the club.

Ah sure I feel the same way about some fans who can't see how it was plainly a poor decision by the manager.

EDIT: 90 mins everygame? Nah but more than 21 league games in a season would be great.

flahavaj

BastardPrince wrote: »

I can't believe I am agreeing with flahavaj but my god I hate a few of the Liverpool fans here; Omg torres didn't finish the game and we didn't win obviously rafa is an idiot, I mean look at gerrards reaction :eek: cause he sums up how we feel about the club this year...

I think if some people here ran the team torres maybe dead due to playing 90mins evey game since joining the club.

Feels good doesn't it.;)

Chardee MacDennis

noodler wrote: »

They ALL have qualifications though - have you never criticised a footballer or manager?

I think it is incredibly condescending to say to Liverpool fans that they don't see the bigger picture. We deserve alot better for the faith which has been shown.

If there are fans out there who feel that we even further away from the EPL than when Rafa took over then that doesn't automatically make them bad fans or even fans that are "blind" to the bigger picture.

you dont see the bigger picture of Lfc and until you are team manager you never will, get the fcuk over it.

Edit: in fact you don't and never will know a lot of the smaller pictures either.

whatawaster

BastardPrince wrote: »

I can't believe I am agreeing with flahavaj but my god I hate a few of the Liverpool fans here; Omg torres didn't finish the game and we didn't win obviously rafa is an idiot, I mean look at gerrards reaction :eek: cause he sums up how we feel about the club this year...

I think if some people here ran the team torres maybe dead due to playing 90mins evey game since joining the club.

all i'd ask is that he's conditioned to play full parts in our most important games.

noodler

BastardPrince wrote: »

you dont see the bigger picture of Lfc and until you are team manager you never will, get the fcuk over it.

Pathetic.

Go cry somewhere else - until you have actual points to make that don't rely on blind faith.

Mr Alan

whatawaster wrote: »

No, but had i been privy to more information, and known that it would be a struggle for him to play 90 minutes 3 days later then i would have been

again, you're saying this with the benefit of hindsight which is absolutely ridiculous.

i'm sure Rafa didn't know he'd struggle to play today-many times he's played back to back games for us & performed admirably, today he didnt, maybe he didnt quite sleep right last night? maybe he trained too hard yesterday? who knows, the simple fact is he was ineffective in the extreme today.

I literally cannot think of a single chance or near chance he was involved in or at the end of in his time on the pitch. he was subbed. the performance of the team after the decision was made & the chances created totally vindicate the decision imo.

the "oh well Torres is deadly, just leave him on & play with 10 men effectively on the off chance he may do something" is extremely silly imo. Birmingham away is among the toughest games in the league ffs.

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know. I've understand his Torres substitutions before, this one seems mad considering the importance of the game.

5ForKeeps

noodler wrote: »

They ALL have qualifications though - have you never criticised a footballer or manager?

I think it is incredibly condescending to say to Liverpool fans that they don't see the bigger picture. We deserve alot better for the faith which has been shown.

If there are fans out there who feel that we even further away from the EPL than when Rafa took over then that doesn't automatically make them bad fans or even fans that are "blind" to the bigger picture.

I do criticise of course but they know more than me thats why they are in the position they are in. Personally it does make them blind, if you see people at Anfield they couldn't give a flyin crap whats going on a the top level at the club because they are being spoon fed in the belief by the rag newspaper they read by chris bascombe that a white knight will come along and save the club...which ain't gonna happen. So they are in the belief that the club is going to be fine when the future is very very much uncertain both on and off the field due the finanical state of the club.

That alone is hanging a dark cloud over Anfield which people are just not realising no matter what SOS do or some of our supporters try and do.

happyoutscan

It was a terrible decision to take off Torres, irregardless of how the team improved after his departure. It's results we needed, not performances. More of the Rafa Ego me thinks.

Now if he took off Donkey Kuyt for N'gog we probably would have one by a couple of goals.

Chardee MacDennis

noodler wrote: »

Pathetic.

Go cry somewhere else - until you have actual points to make that don't rely on blind faith.

Can you tell me he name of the doctor who did nandos last surgery or if he is still in any rehab from it? Also what has his fitness been like in training since the match in Thursday?

noodler

BastardPrince wrote: »

Can you tell me he name of the doctor who did nandos last surgery or if he is still in any rehab from it? Also what has his fitness been like in training since the match in Thursday?

Do you know what Babel eats for dinner? If not, then I never want to hear you spout on opinion on any of his performances ever again.

Mr Alan

noodler wrote: »

EDIT: 90 mins everygame? Nah but more than 21 league games in a season would be great.

whatawaster wrote: »

all i'd ask is that he's conditioned to play full parts in our most important games.

i'm actually shocked at the pair of you's being so childish.

Noodler, it would be great, is it Rafa's fault he's gotten injured lately? if not what the **** relevance does that little sulk have to anything?

Whatawaster, you do understand that wat your looking for is impossibe to plan for? you cannot control the bodies reaction to exertions like our players go through every week to assure that they are ready to be 100% for all big games.

ffs lads, you's ain't stupid, but this is some serious toys out of the prams stuff.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

again, you're saying this with the benefit of hindsight which is absolutely ridiculous.

i'm sure Rafa didn't know he'd struggle to play today-many times he's played back to back games for us & performed admirably, today he didnt, maybe he didnt quite sleep right last night? maybe he trained too hard yesterday? who knows, the simple fact is he was ineffective in the extreme today.

I literally cannot think of a single chance or near chance he was involved in or at the end of in his time on the pitch. he was subbed. the performance of the team after the decision was made & the chances created totally vindicate the decision imo.

the "oh well Torres is deadly, just leave him on & play with 10 men effectively on the off chance he may do something" is extremely silly imo. Birmingham away is among the toughest games in the league ffs.

Torres was not so bad today that we were effectively playing with ten men, you're completely exaggerating his performance. The service to him wasn't great at all. Torres' USP is performing below average and scoring goals when we most need it. You know it, and i know it.

When he went off, we started to chase the game more. You're also completely exaggerating N'Gog's performance when he came on. He did pretty well, but his finishing was poor.

K-9

Mr Alan wrote: »

again, you're saying this with the benefit of hindsight which is absolutely ridiculous.

i'm sure Rafa didn't know he'd struggle to play today-many times he's played back to back games for us & performed admirably, today he didnt, maybe he didnt quite sleep right last night? maybe he trained too hard yesterday? who knows, the simple fact is he was ineffective in the extreme today.

I literally cannot think of a single chance or near chance he was involved in or at the end of in his time on the pitch. he was subbed. the performance of the team after the decision was made & the chances created totally vindicate the decision imo.

the "oh well Torres is deadly, just leave him on & play with 10 men effectively on the off chance he may do something" is extremely silly imo. Birmingham away is among the toughest games in the league ffs.

Al, I'm just saying I'm more baffled with this one and I have understood previous times he subbed him.

Obviously he believes he was too tired, fair enough.

Can't see why he didn't go 4-4-2 though. NGog is good at holding up the ball and is a decent crosser too.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Do you know what Babel eats for dinner? If not, then I never want to hear you spout on opinion on any of his performances ever again.

He's probably put it up on his Twitter if you looked. He puts everything else up on it.:pac:

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

Noodler, it would be great, is it Rafa's fault he's gotten injured lately? if not what the **** relevance does that little sulk have to anything?




ffs lads, you's ain't stupid, but this is some serious toys out of the prams stuff.

Don't quote the end part of my post like that Alan - I in no way blamed Rafa for the amount of games he has played this season. I was merely replying to a previous poster who argued he would be made play every game, regardless of injury, if some fans were in charge.

Its an aspiration for next season - nothing more.

ilovelamp2000

Mr Alan wrote: »

Considering we improved ten fold after he made the sub and he had the guts to take off our star player and we should have won the game as a result of the change if we'd converted one of our many chances, i'd hazard a guess he is thinking more rationally than most on here who would have left Torres on and hoped for the best.

Torres and Gerrard on the field = 1 goal.
Torres and Gerrard off the field = 0 goals.

As any fool knows we're more likely to score goals when we have our best two goalscorers on the pitch.

It all comes back the quote about football being a simple game complicated by idiots.

Rafa is definitely guilty of overcomplicating the game, and you trying to justify his clearly mental decisions doesn't do you any favours.

ilovelamp2000

noodler wrote: »

Bit crap really, why is there a football board then? I mean the managers are always right etc.

It's awfully crap.

You don't need to be a carpenter to know when the leg of a chair is broken do you ?

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm actually shocked at the pair of you's being so childish.

Noodler, it would be great, is it Rafa's fault he's gotten injured lately? if not what the **** relevance does that little sulk have to anything?

Whatawaster, you do understand that wat your looking for is impossibe to plan for? you cannot control the bodies reaction to exertions like our players go through every week to assure that they are ready to be 100% for all big games.

ffs lads, you's ain't stupid, but this is some serious toys out of the prams stuff.

I'm just saying what i truly believe -

Our best chance of winning today was keeping Torres on the pitch. A 50% fit Torres is still our best goalscorer.

Torres felt able to continue. He should have stayed on.

noodler

whatawaster wrote: »

Torres was not so bad today that we were effectively playing with ten men, you're completely exaggerating his performance. The service to him wasn't great at all. Torres' USP is performing below average and scoring goals when we most need it. You know it, and i know it.

When he went off, we started to chase the game more. You're also completely exaggerating N'Gog's performance when he came on. He did pretty well, but his finishing was poor.

These are good points that have not been put forward enough.

I defintely think N'Gogs contribution to the chances he was presented, at least two of them, had to do entirely with other players. (Maxi and Gerrard).

Torres doing nothing for a game and then scoring out of the blue is certainly in his remit. CL game at the bridge, Villa game, his goal at OT last season etc etc.

I don't think may people are complaining that N'Gog came on anyway.

Also, one other thing: some of the Birmingham players did look quite tired in the last 20 odd minutes (as alluded to a little too often by my stream commentators I admit) and I would have liked to see Torres in that situation.

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

I literally don't remember a single person on here saying we should not play Torres on Thurs. No offence, but you yourself have admitted you wouldn't be saying that here now if we'd won the game today which we should have(although you say you'd still hold the view). surely you can see why I find that a little bit annoying when its used as a criticism of the manager?

I can but its not a particular result or one particular game I have a problem with but more a criticism of what I feel is not looking at the bigger picture. Its not rocket science to say that if you have two games in quick succession that you need to prioritize them if one of those games is much more important. Its the managers job to recognise and analyse these situations and make the right call.

Saying that just because not a single person on here called for Torres not to play on Thursday is a silly argument as to why Rafa should be let off the hook. Fans get easily distracted by the bright lights and the glamour of a European nights entertainment. Like that guy earlier in the thread who's reason for wanting us to play a full team in Europe was so he could get a few days away somewhere Its Rafa job to know better than this and that his job is getting 4th!

I don't see why you find this criticism annoying ? When analysing results surely you should always look for reasons as to how things could have been improved. I am only pointing out I think had we not bothered with Europe we would have had a much fresher team and a much better chance of winning today's game.

Do you think Rafa should persist with playing Torres in Europe if that means he won't be able to last the full length of the following Premiership match ?

Opr

monkey9

I thought this today and looking at the highlights on MOTD2, Ridgewell looked well offside for that equaliser!!


Also, the commentator saying that Liverpool fans were booing the substitution. :rolleyes: That was the Birmingham fans booing N'gog's introduction because of his dive at Anfield!!

dreamers75

heh even ex LOI players taking the piss

noodler

I fell asleep well before that gif completed.

Slowest gif ever.

monkey9

dreamers75 wrote: »

heh even ex LOI players taking the piss

I was really fearing he would score today!!! I had visions of me at around 4:48pm today with my head in my hands crying "Why Fats, why??!!" :pac:

monkey9

dreamers75 wrote: »

heh even ex LOI players taking the piss

He was bloody brilliant in that second half by the way!! It's a joke he's not even being called up for an international friendly, at least!!

K-9

dreamers75 wrote: »

heh even ex LOI players taking the piss

Lads it was Insua though, a LOI full back!

Diversionary tactic!

flahavaj

K-9 wrote: »

Lads it was Insua though, a LOI full back!

Diversionary tactic!

Playing on the right side of the defence? Is it not Lucas?

Johner

It's Insua.

flahavaj

Johner wrote: »

It's Insua.

Bit far outa position isn't he?:eek: