Birmingham v Liverpool match thread - Mod Warning #432 & #446

Hoki

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

If you look at the timer in the top left corner Gerrards reaction is 2 whole minutes after Torres has been subbed , nice editing RTE. I think Ronnie Whelan did it...

dreamers75

monkey9 wrote: »

I was really fearing he would score today!!! I had visions of me at around 4:48pm today with my head in my hands crying "Why Fats, why??!!" :pac:

:eek:

monkey9

dreamers75 wrote: »

:eek:

dreamers75

monkey9 wrote: »

thought you were a pats fan!

K-9

flahavaj wrote: »

Playing on the right side of the defence? Is it not Lucas?

Its Insua though have to admit, I double taked.

The question is, wtf is he doing there? Not leaving out the Greek and Johson though.

monkey9

Hoki wrote: »

If you look at the timer in the top left corner Gerrards reaction is 2 whole minutes after Torres has been subbed , nice editing RTE. I think Ronnie Whelan did it...

I don't know what's gone on with the timer and all that, but that Torres/Gerrard incident was in the same movement.

Torres was surprised to be hauled off. As he was heading off, Gerrard asked him why he was going off, Torres shrugged to say 'i don't know why'. That's when Gerrard looked past Torres and towards Rafa with a reaction along the lines of "Are you taking the p!ss???? For f*ck sake??!!!"

monkey9

dreamers75 wrote: »

thought you were a pats fan!

Yeah, i want to see him do well for Birmingham. Just not against Liverpool.

daithijjj

Hoki wrote: »

If you look at the timer in the top left corner Gerrards reaction is 2 whole minutes after Torres has been subbed , nice editing RTE. I think Ronnie Whelan did it...

ah now hoki, think again , easy mistake to make i suppose.

The first clip is of torres only, the second clip is from a different angle/camera of the same incident.

During normal play, they never showed gerrards reaction, the gerrard clip is from a camera that was on gerrard during the substitution. The timer delay is because they had to go back to camera 2, if you will, during the match.

monkey9

daithijjj wrote: »

ah now hoki, think again , easy mistake to make i suppose.

The first clip is of torres only, the second clip is from a different angle/camera of the same incident.

During normal play, they never showed gerrards reaction, the gerrard clip is from a camera that was on gerrard during the substitution. The timer delay is because they had to go back to camera 2, if you will, during the match.

Good sleuthing!!!

LuckyLloyd

So, we had a few good chances with and without Torres on the pitch that we were unable to take, and we conceded a goal through more rotten defending? And Gerrard was overtly expressing displeasure and trying to blame things outside of his own personal performance for an unsatisfactory result on the pitch?

Standard, story of the season, etc.

Not surprised the reaction here is of the "Rafa out, rabble, rabble" variety. But when enough chances are created to win a game I don't think that is where the blame for a failure to win should lie.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, we had a few good chances with and without Torres on the pitch that we were unable to take, and we conceded a goal through more rotten defending? And Gerrard was overtly expressing displeasure and trying to blame things outside of his own personal performance for an unsatisfactory result on the pitch?

Standard, story of the season, etc.

Not surprised the reaction here is of the "Rafa out, rabble, rabble" variety. But when enough chances are created to win a game I don't think that is where the blame for a failure to win should lie.

Where should it lie?

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, we had a few good chances with and without Torres on the pitch that we were unable to take, and we conceded a goal through more rotten defending? And Gerrard was overtly expressing displeasure and trying to blame things outside of his own personal performance for an unsatisfactory result on the pitch?

Standard, story of the season, etc.

Not surprised the reaction here is of the "Rafa out, rabble, rabble" variety. But when enough chances are created to win a game I don't think that is where the blame for a failure to win should lie.

Did you see the match?, i watched 90 mins. Gerrard imo was very good today, scored the goal, world class pass to ngog who fluffed his lines near the end and various excellent balls into/around the box that nobody was able to convert.

I dont think many people are complianing that ngog came on, its that he came on for torres. We pressed brum alot more in the last 20 mins, we needed 3 points, rafa seems not capable of making an attacking substitution. He said after the game that torres was tired, absolute BS, a blind man can see he never made a shout to torres to find out how he was. From the 66 minute mark we pressed home our possessional advantage in search of 3 points. Nobody would have batted an eyelid if lucas or another came off for ngog, that would have been attack minded. Getting 3 points is the priority for the club, not resting our best goal threat for a mickey mouse cl losers consolation competition on thursday imo.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, we had a few good chances with and without Torres on the pitch that we were unable to take, and we conceded a goal through more rotten defending? And Gerrard was overtly expressing displeasure and trying to blame things outside of his own personal performance for an unsatisfactory result on the pitch?

Standard, story of the season, etc.

Not surprised the reaction here is of the "Rafa out, rabble, rabble" variety. But when enough chances are created to win a game I don't think that is where the blame for a failure to win should lie.

We created more with Torres off.

The problem changed from creating chances to converting them. Fecked either way tbh.

monkey9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, we had a few good chances with and without Torres on the pitch that we were unable to take, and we conceded a goal through more rotten defending? And Gerrard was overtly expressing displeasure and trying to blame things outside of his own personal performance for an unsatisfactory result on the pitch?

Standard, story of the season, etc.

Not surprised the reaction here is of the "Rafa out, rabble, rabble" variety. But when enough chances are created to win a game I don't think that is where the blame for a failure to win should lie.

Did you watch the match live today and if so, what did you think when Torres was taken off??

IMO, Rafa should have left him on. I understand the reasons he gave for taking him off, but for me, we should have kept him on.

LuckyLloyd

daithijjj wrote: »

Did you see the match?, i watched 90 mins. Gerrard imo was very good today, scored the goal, world class pass to ngog who fluffed his lines near the end and various excellent balls into/around the box that nobody was able to convert.

I dont think many people are complianing that ngog came on, its that he came on for torres. We pressed brum alot more in the last 20 mins, we needed 3 points, rafa seems not capable of making an attacking substitution. He said after the game that torres was tired, absolute BS, a blind man can see he never made a shout to torres to find out how he was. From the 66 minute mark we pressed home our possessional advantage in search of 3 points. Nobody would have batted an eyelid if lucas or another came off for ngog, that would have been attack minded. Getting 3 points is the priority for the club, not resting our best goal threat for a mickey mouse cl losers consolation competition on thursday imo.

K-9 wrote: »

We created more with Torres off.

The problem changed from creating chances to converting them. Fecked either way tbh.

A substitution was made. The team as a whole responded positively to it, and looked more likely to score following it. Seems simple to me tbh.

As for Gerrard, good performance / bad performance / indifferent performance, that type of petulant rubbish makes him unfit to be captain of the club I love. Just as one good performance fails to compensate for a long season of performances in the latter two categories.

monkey9

daithijjj wrote: »

Did you see the match?, i watched 90 mins. Gerrard imo was very good today, scored the goal, world class pass to ngog who fluffed his lines near the end and various excellent balls into/around the box that nobody was able to convert.

I dont think many people are complianing that ngog came on, its that he came on for torres. We pressed brum alot more in the last 20 mins, we needed 3 points, rafa seems not capable of making an attacking substitution. He said after the game that torres was tired, absolute BS, a blind man can see he never made a shout to torres to find out how he was. From the 66 minute mark we pressed home our possessional advantage in search of 3 points. Nobody would have batted an eyelid if lucas or another came off for ngog, that would have been attack minded. Getting 3 points is the priority for the club, not resting our best goal threat for a mickey mouse cl losers consolation competition on thursday imo.

This for me is very true. I know Rafa is a stand off manager, but if he's going to take off, arguably the best striker in the world today, at least ask him how he feels.

I know that players may lie, they just want to play the game. But just ask him and assess the situation!

LuckyLloyd

monkey9 wrote: »

Did you watch the match live today and if so, what did you think when Torres was taken off??

IMO, Rafa should have left him on. I understand the reasons he gave for taking him off, but for me, we should have kept him on.

What did I think? I thought he wasn't playing to his usual high standards, but would have preferred him on in the hope that he would snap out of it.

But 15 minutes later I thought we were going to do it, and that the team as a whole had responded well once Torres was wheeled off.

And now I think that people are focusing on the wrong aspect of the game. I just wish our players would put the ball in the net from a higher percentage of their very good chances (and that includes Torres vs Wigan and Benfica btw). The manager can't do that for them I'm afraid.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A substitution was made. The team as a whole responded positively to it, and looked more likely to score following it. Seems simple to me tbh.

As for Gerrard, good performance / bad performance / indifferent performance, that type of petulant rubbish makes him unfit to be captain of the club I love. Just as one good performance fails to compensate for a long season of performances in the latter two categories.

What about Rafas performance and the club you love?

Smacks of double standards!

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

What about Rafas performance and the club you love?

Smacks of double standards!

I have never, ever had reason to believe Rafael Benitez is not fully committed to the success of Liverpool Football Club, and is not giving every drop of physical effort and mental exertion that he has to give to that cause.

On the other hand, Steven Gerrard often leaves me wondering on those points.

No double standards here.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I have never, ever had reason to believe Rafael Benitez is not fully committed to the success of Liverpool Football Club, and is not giving every drop of physical effort and mental exertion that he has to give to that cause.

On the other hand, Steven Gerrard often leaves me wondering on those points.

No double standards here.

Gerrard performed today, didn't he?

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A substitution was made. The team as a whole responded positively to it, and looked more likely to score following it. Seems simple to me tbh.

As for Gerrard, good performance / bad performance / indifferent performance, that type of petulant rubbish makes him unfit to be captain of the club I love. Just as one good performance fails to compensate for a long season of performances in the latter two categories.

It would be a simple analysis allright but we needed 3 points. The natural reaction of the team was going to go all out for the win in the late stages, this always happens in this scenario. The problem lies in the fact that rafa is cagey, he will never go gung ho unless his life depends on it. We made more chances out of desperation for the win (where we needed torres to convert one).

And seriously, give over with the holier than thou stuff, carra has been doing that for the last two seasons and we never here a peep about him doing it. Gerrard played well and the reaction on his face was the same as every fan of the club watching the game imo. Gerrard hasnt had a good season, i can count who has had a good season on one hand, and the gaffer isnt included.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Gerrard performed today, didn't he?

So, I should be grateful for the odd game he decides to actually try as hard as he can? Eh, no dice.

opr

So Gerrard hasn't been playing to his full potential but the manager who continues to play that under-performing player is making all the right decisions and shares none of the blame for whats going on . . . lol

Opr

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, I should be grateful for the odd game he decides to actually try as hard as he can? Eh, no dice.

Gerrard is the reason Liverpool FC are still thought about as a big team.

I don't like Gerrard for many reasons, but there is no denying Benitez is still in a job because of him.

LuckyLloyd

daithijjj wrote: »

It would be a simple analysis allright but we needed 3 points. The natural reaction of the team was going to go all out for the win in the late stages, this always happens in this scenario. The problem lies in the fact that rafa is cagey, he will never go gung ho unless his life depends on it. We made more chances out of desperation for the win (where we needed torres to convert one).

And seriously, give over with the holier than thou stuff, carra has been doing that for the last two seasons and we never here a peep about him doing it. Gerrard played well and the reaction on his face was the same as every fan of the club watching the game imo. Gerrard hasnt had a good season, i can count who has had a good season on one hand, and the gaffer isnt included.

I am aware we needed three points. The team that was sent out (before and after Torres substitution) was clearly good enough to achieve three points. They just didn't execute well enough in the crucial moments at either end to finish the job.

You can decide to go poor result = manger mistake if you wish. But that type of militantly results orientated analysis never washes with me.

---

As for Carragher, my posting history will attest to the fact that I loathe the silly counter productive **** he gets on with just as much.

monkey9

opr wrote: »

So Gerrard hasn't been playing to his full potential but the manager who continues to play that under-performing player is making all the right decisions and shares none of the blame for whats going on . . . lol

Opr

Can you imagine the absolute uproar if Rafa drops that under-performing player!!! Rafa deals with a lot of intricasies that most people (myself included) don't realise or understand!!

LuckyLloyd

opr wrote: »

So Gerrard hasn't been playing to his full potential but the manager who continues to play that under-performing player is making all the right decisions and shares none of the blame for whats going on . . . lol

Opr

Now, on this I do agree. He should have been dropped weeks ago. And if you want to label that as poor management on Benitez's part I will agree with you 100%. But that point is rarely raised around here, and you know that too.

Boggles wrote: »

Gerrard is the reason Liverpool FC are still thought about as a big team.

lol, I sometimes think you really believe such statements when you type them so I'll simply say "okay". Well played yet again.

K-9

Boggles wrote: »

Gerrard is the reason Liverpool FC are still thought about as a big team.

I don't like Gerrard for many reasons, but there is no denying Benitez is still in a job because of him.

Simplistic nonsense.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, I sometimes think you really believe such statements when you type them so I'll simply say "okay". Well played yet again.

Whats funny about it?

Honest question?

monkey9

Boggles wrote: »

Gerrard is the reason Liverpool FC are still thought about as a big team.

I don't like Gerrard for many reasons, but there is no denying Benitez is still in a job because of him.

Bullsh!t again. You know this! Rafa has done nothing but enhance the club's reputation amongst the world's standing!!

Thanx 4 The Fish

Ladies and Gents, play nice or stop posting here please.

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I am aware we needed three points. The team that was sent out (before and after Torres substitution) was clearly good enough to achieve three points. They just didn't execute well enough in the crucial moments at either end to finish the job.

You can decide to go poor result = manger mistake if you wish. But that type of militantly results orientated analysis never washes with me.

---

As for Carragher, my posting history will attest to the fact that I loathe the silly counter productive **** he gets on with just as much.

What you say is fair enough, i just have a different viewpoint. I was trying to think of something comparable to today and i thought of this from last season.

United were playing away at stoke around the same stage of the season as we are in now. 0-0 for the first hour, ferguson takes off a midfielder and brings on berbatov, not a second striker but a third striker (if you include rooney and ronaldo). He went for the jugalar with 60-65 mins gone, herein lies the difference, as much as it pains me to compliment ferguson the man has the capability to take the knife out and cut the oppositions throat. Rooney was having no joy. The exact same thing happened, chance after chance missed but eventually berbatov got the goal which gave united 3 points. United created more chances in the last 20 than they had in the entire game, we created that same siege today in the last 20 but we have a young lad in pole position, he wasnt enough, we needed torres. And imo, rafas adherence to the 4231 and his stubborness at throwing on a second striker that could have lifted some weight off torres this part of the season, has led to our best goal threat to outright tiredness and frustration. Even a man of torres stature needs an accomplice beside him sometimes (like rooney needed berbatov that day) to give the opposition something else to think about but more often than not he has 2 defenders glued to him and when we are struggling in a game he is totally isolated.

LuckyLloyd

daithijjj wrote: »

United were playing away at stoke around the same stage of the season as we are in now. 0-0 for the first hour, ferguson takes off a midfielder and brings on berbatov, not a second striker but a third striker (if you include rooney and ronaldo). He went for the jugalar with 60-65 mins gone, herein lies the difference, as much as it pains me to compliment ferguson the man has the capability to take the knife out and cut the oppositions throat. Rooney was having no joy. The exact same thing happened, chance after chance missed but eventually berbatov got the goal which gave united 3 points. United created more chances in the last 20 than they had in the entire game, we created that same siege today in the last 20 but we have a young lad in pole position, he wasnt enough, we needed torres. And imo, rafas adherence to the 4231 and his stubborness at throwing on a second striker that could have lifted some weight off torres this part of the season, has led to our best goal threat to outright tiredness and frustration. Even a man of torres stature needs an accomplice beside him sometimes (like rooney needed berbatov that day) to give the opposition something else to think about but more often than not he has 2 defenders glued to him and when we are struggling in a game he is totally isolated.

Stoke had a player sent off that game right?

flahavaj

daithijjj wrote: »

What you say is fair enough, i just have a different viewpoint. I was trying to think of something comparable to today and i thought of this from last season.

United were playing away at stoke around the same stage of the season as we are in now. 0-0 for the first hour, ferguson takes off a midfielder and brings on berbatov, not a second striker but a third striker (if you include rooney and ronaldo). He went for the jugalar with 60-65 mins gone, herein lies the difference, as much as it pains me to compliment ferguson the man has the capability to take the knife out and cut the oppositions throat. Rooney was having no joy. The exact same thing happened, chance after chance missed but eventually berbatov got the goal which gave united 3 points. United created more chances in the last 20 than they had in the entire game, we created that same siege today in the last 20 but we have a young lad in pole position, he wasnt enough, we needed torres. And imo, rafas adherence to the 4231 and his stubborness at throwing on a second striker that could have lifted some weight off torres this part of the season, has led to our best goal threat to outright tiredness and frustration. Even a man of torres stature needs an accomplice beside him sometimes (like rooney needed berbatov that day) to give the opposition something else to think about but more often than not he has 2 defenders glued to him and when we are struggling in a game he is totally isolated.

But in that instance Fergie's substitution was tactical, whereas Rafa's today was because he believed Torres was tired.

monkey9

Boggles wrote: »

Whats funny about it?

Honest question?

The only reason you defend Gerrard, is because we question him this season.

daithijjj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Stoke had a player sent off that game right?

Yes they did, 15 mins from the end, berbatov came on when it was 11 v 11, i believe it was wilkinson who got sent off around the 75th minute mark. Look , my point is not about the result per se, its about the intent of the manager when that sub was made, 433 away from home at stoke who we all know were comparable last season to brum this season, ie, a tough team.

The substitution was tactical. Just a quick point, its a fair point to say torres was tired and rafa did the right thing but it goes to show, in my opinion that he doesnt communicate with his players. The other night, fabregas was out on his arse and wenger let him stay on, he asked him how he was, rafa clearly does not do this and its not a great trait in a manager if im 100% honest.

flahavaj

daithijjj wrote: »

Yes they did, 15 mins from the end, berbatov came on when it was 11 v 11, i believe it was wilkinson who got sent off around the 75th minute mark. Look , my point is not about the result per se, its about the intent of the manager when that sub was made, 433 away from home at stoke who we all know were comparable last season to brum this season, ie, a tough team.

The substitution was tactical. Just a quick point, its a fair point to say torres was tired and rafa did the right thing but it goes to show, in my opinion that he doesnt communicate with his players. The other night, fabregas was out on his arse and wenger let him stay on, he asked him how he was, rafa clearly does not do this and its not a great trait in a manager if im 100% honest.

How did that work out for Fabregas? Thats a perfect example of when its not a good idea at all for a manager to listen to his player, but take the decision for him and haul him off.

monkey9

daithijjj wrote: »

Yes they did, 15 mins from the end, berbatov came on when it was 11 v 11, i believe it was wilkinson who got sent off around the 75th minute mark. Look , my point is not about the result per se, its about the intent of the manager when that sub was made, 433 away from home at stoke who we all know were comparable last season to brum this season, ie, a tough team.

The substitution was tactical. Just a quick point, its a fair point to say torres was tired and rafa did the right thing but it goes to show, in my opinion that he doesnt communicate with his players. The other night, fabregas was out on his arse and wenger let him stay on, he asked him how he was, rafa clearly does not do this and its not a great trait in a manager if im 100% honest.

Completely agree with this. I just think Rafa should have asked Torres how he was. Let him know he was concerned and see how Torres reacted!!

dfx-

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Ladies and Gents, play nice or stop posting here please.

Hurrah, 1/5 wins

I think Benitez decided that the game was too dull so to spice it up, the internet fora and punditry would be much more interesting if he took Torres off..

Boggles

monkey9 wrote: »

The only reason you defend Gerrard, is because we question him this season.

Yeah thats the only reason.

:rolleyes:

Unique split family, couple scouse supporters, couple leeds, couple united.

Gerrard has been muck more than good this season.

Like I said earlier in the week, the reasons behind this are important.

He has been excellent for England, go figure, or go have a go at me. :rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy

Bad result for Liverpool but I still think they can get fourth. The others going for fourth will balls up plenty of games.

Strange situation though as we'll likely see Liverpool fans rooting for United to beat City in a few weeks and likewise we'll be rooting for Liverpool to beat Chelsea.

daithijjj

flahavaj wrote: »

How did that work out for Fabregas? Thats a perfect example of when its not a good idea at all for a manager to listen to his player, but take the decision for him and haul him off.

Will you stop being pedantic please. My point is not based on an injury. Torres had no problems, we know this from the look on his face.

My point is based on the communication rafa has with his players, ie, 'hey nando, how are you feeling? ok to continue?' ......this clearly does not happen.

monkey9

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah thats the only reason.

:rolleyes:

Unique split family, couple scouse supporters, couple leeds, couple united.

Gerrard has been muck more than good this season.

Like I said earlier in the week, the reasons behind this are important.

He has been excellent for England, go figure, or go have a go at me. :rolleyes:

Have no idea what sh!te your spouting about Leeds, Couples etc........??

No, he has not been excellent for England. ( I assume the road you're going down here is that he has a good manager that makes him a good player)

flahavaj

daithijjj wrote: »

Will you stop being pedantic please. My point is not based on an injury. Torres had no problems, we know this from the look on his face.

My point is based on the communication rafa has with his players, ie, 'hey nando, how are you feeling? ok to continue?' ......this clearly does not happen.

But the example you used was of a manager asking a player who was very badly injured if he was Ok to continue. Surprise surprise he said he was because he players by their very nature are egotistical and will want to continue unless they physically can't.

Which is what would have happened if Rafa consulted Torres. So he didn't, he took the decision himself based on what he could see, which as the manager, he is paid to do.

I'm not being pedantic btw. Your example is flawed.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Enough is enough.

Knackered. If anybody discusses anything bar the result or play in yesterdays game on this thread any more then they will receive a red card and a weeks ban. No arguments, if you are even flirting with something that is off topic for the thread then you are out. Consider this fair warning.

daithijjj

flahavaj wrote: »

But the example you used was of a manager asking a player who was very badly injured if he was Ok to continue. Surprise surprise he said he was because he players by their very nature are egotistical and will want to continue unless they physically can't.

Which is what would have happened if Rafa consulted Torres. So he didn't, he took the decision himself based on what he could see, which as the manager, he is paid to do.

I'm not being pedantic btw. Your example is flawed.

You are being pedantic and im not going down that road with you. Wenger consulted his player, benitez did not. The way you are guiding your point is that wenger is some kind of idiot for leaving fabregas on the pitch. Wenger is no idiot, fabregas was in far worse shape but still played on. Why?, because even a hobbling fabregas is better than most and can get you the result.

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes having reviewd the highlights i wouldnt blame the result entirely on Rafa. You expect your stand in striker to find the target with at least one attempt, you expect someone to pick up a run at the far post. Neither happened yesterday.
As for Torres, Dixon nailed it on the head. What was Torres being rested for. The champions league final? With Torres on we had a fighting chance. Ngog just didnt do the biz yesterday.
Gerrard took his goal excellently and in a way I sympathize with him. Put more pressure on him to deliver in the absence of Torres. Maxi was unlucky with first half effort but really should have found the target after the break.

ShamoBuc

We certainly created enough chances to win the match, we didn't take them. Plenty of teams have gone to Brum this season, did what we did and left with a draw.