The carrying of a drivers licence?, or not?

as.eirinn

Hello all...
I want to ask if anyone else does not carry they're drivers licence? I have never done so, nor 'am likely to do so in the future.

Now, before everyone gets on they're high horse and gives me chapter and verse of it says 'this' and it 'states' that and 'you must'... here's what it says on the RSA's website.


'You must hold a current driving licence or a learner permit (from the 30th October 2007) before driving any motor vehicle in a public place. You can drive only the type of vehicle for which you hold a licence/permit. And you must carry your driving licence/learner permit at all times when driving.'


Now, it states the word 'must' , it's also in red in case the lower case black font wasn't adequate to get the message across...but when i copied and pasted it here it reverted back to the boring ol' black...


I have read 'the road traffic act' and cannot seem to find anywhere 'in law' that I have to produce my licence at a garda checkpoint only at a garda station of my choosing within the ten days allotted to do so...


I also realise that this post will get the usual...'why not carry your licence'? comments...or 'it's not that big and awkward, just carry it, leave it in the car...?'

This is my reason for not carrying my licence. I believe (maybe wrongly) that I
have the right to 'free movement' in my own country weather that is on foot or driving my car; that is no1 taxed, 2 insured, and 3 NCT'd and do not believe the non carrying of a licence in my car is against the law...I could find no such law..and only words like 'required to' and 'must'...nowhere could I find it in the road traffic act that I could be prosecuted for failing to do so...only for failing to produce it within ten working days at a garda station of my choosing.


So, if I am wrong and anyone can find the 'statute or law' of this curious requirement and please post a reply...also can I ask people not to swear?, as I am asking a genuine question that if proven right will only serve to inform the general public...


thanking you.

The Big Red Button

Meah. It's really not that much effort to just have it thrown in my glove box, and it could potentially save a wee bit of effort were I ever asked for it, so why the hell not?!

Midnight_EG

2 points to make.

1) Having it with you avoids having to take the time to make a trip to the station and waste time.

2) Imagine all the Learner Permit holders telling guards they have a full license, which the guard will inevitably have to believe to be true unless proven otherwise.

Esel

Ho hum.....

seanybiker

Free movement? How does carrying a license impend on your free movement.
Surely its a lot less hassle just to throw it in the glove box. I also imagine that if you come to a check point and decide to inform the cops that you read up about it and start spouting your rights will only end up wasting your and the cops time.

heffomike54

Leave it stuck in the wallet the whole time, best place for it I think. Besides as said earlier in the tread saves the hassle of a spin to the Garda station plus I always know where it is.

Andrew33

You are all missing the point of OP! Whats next? a national ID card which every citizen MUST carry at all times? We used to slag communist countries for this type of stuff and yet here we are, having our liberties chipped away at bit by bit. Go OP!

Tristram

If someone can quote the relevant legislation perhaps this thread will have served its function...

corktina

well if carrying a bit of card round with me will make it easier for the Gards to identify wrong-doers, then I'm all for it. How can it possibly be eroding your civil-liberties to be able to say "this is me, I belong here"

PCPhoto

theres nothing wrong with a national ID card - if access to the data is not abused - it will stop welfare fraud and keep track of criminals.

as for the OP claiming "right to free movement" having a licence with you doesnt stop you from moving around the place ?
I understand your point of view and think you have the wrong opinion, from reading between the lines you seem to be saying .... why should I conform to society, I just wanna stick it to the man !!

the same type of person who stands up on behalf of the "little" guy - no offence intended, but I dont conform to your thinking and your ideas and just have to disagree with you, Personally I would prefer if they made a small credit card sized driving licence - I'm told this is in the pipeline but not due for release for a number of years (2-3years before announcement and another 12months before implementation ....problems with union workers ....so it could yet be shelved)

finnigan

Andrew33 wrote: »

You are all missing the point of OP! Whats next? a national ID card which every citizen MUST carry at all times? We used to slag communist countries for this type of stuff and yet here we are, having our liberties chipped away at bit by bit. Go OP!

maybe i,m just a gobshyte but i dont get what the problem is with a national ID card is!! can someone explain how it effects my freedom or whatever?

PCPhoto

finnigan wrote: »

maybe i,m just a gobshyte but i dont get what the problem is with a national ID card is!! can someone explain how it effects my freedom or whatever?

the "issue" with a national ID card is that some "liberals" believe (rightly or wrongly) that they shouldnt be dictated to by the government - so the government says do this.... and they ask why !

finnigan

PCPhoto wrote: »

the "issue" with a national ID card is that some "liberals" believe (rightly or wrongly) that they shouldnt be dictated to by the government - so the government says do this.... and they ask why !

but the govt dictate to us everyday, DONT drive through a red light, DO stop when asked to by a policeman and many more. but i still not understand their problem with an ID card! i done my safepass course last week and the amount of guys that not know their PPS number was daft, if they had ID card that would not have been the case! am i being to simple

rugbyman

as eirinn
no sign of an answer to your question as yet. just the usual stuff.

i do not carry my licence, i drive several vehicles a week and do not use a wallet. I travel quite a bit and keep licence,passport and credit card in a travel wallet thingy. but thats just me..

I think your question has been debated,perhaps on Boards, I certainly recall reading something,and I think you are right, there is no law.

By the way, I would regard it as a prodigous waste of Garda time checking peoples licence after ten days, and can see both sides of this debate.
Rugbyman

macplaxton

I'd rather have the 7 days to produce I have the other side of the water. (I do usually carry 1/2 my licence (with my bank cards if I have them with me) but I have a UK photocard (which on it's own isn't a complete licence as the A4 paper counterpart stays at home)

[With regards to the law, I think it comes under Section 18 of the Road Traffic Act 2002 which is an amendment to Section 40 of the Road Traffic Act 1961. (Section 18 came into effect on 1st January 2003 with S.I. NO. 598 OF 2002 - that Section 18 wording was altered by Section 13 of the Road Traffic Act 2006) - some legal beagle will known better than I. Someone might also enlighten us as to actual number of offences (if any) recorded for the above too.]

Discodog

PCPhoto wrote: »

the "issue" with a national ID card is that some "liberals" believe (rightly or wrongly) that they shouldnt be dictated to by the government - so the government says do this.... and they ask why !

Maybe that it because they have been dictated to by the Banks & the Church. The government may act as dictators but we do not have to accept it.

There is a continual pressure regarding red tape & ID. For example the new requirement to produce ID when bringing a car for a NCT. How can it matter who NCT's a car ?.

Saruman

That is strange... I am sure it was blatantly announced back in the early noughties that it was now an offence to drive without your license on you and since then I keep it in my wallet.

I have no source for this, it was announced on the radio.

You certain there is no law?

Why else would this requirement not only be posted on the RSA but also on most county council sites and Citzens Info website?

MagicSean

The way I see it the op has made the common mistake of assuming he has the right to drive a car. There is no right to drive. It is a priviledge. That is why it is regulated. If you don't like having to carry a licence you can use public transport and your movement isn't restricted.

The regulation is section 18 of the Road Traffic Act 2002 which ammends section 40 of the Road Traffic Act 1961. Basically it just changes the wording so that production is required on the spot. So there are now three driving.licence offences.

1) No licence produced on the spot
2) Failing to produce a licence in 10 days
3) Driving a vehicle without having a valid licence issued

Saruman

2002 act would correspond perfectly with when I heard the announcement

Thoie

It originally came from the Road Traffic Act 1994, Section 25

40.—(1) ( a ) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

The wording was later amended in 2006 to "learner permit" and to make the phrase "production to him" tidier.

It was always an offence (well, since 1994 at least), it was just with the introduction of penalty points that it really became enforced.

MagicSean

Thoie wrote: »

It originally came from the Road Traffic Act 1994, Section 25

40.—(1) ( a ) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

The wording was later amended in 2006 to "learner permit" and to make the phrase "production to him" tidier.

It was always an offence (well, since 1994 at least), it was just with the introduction of penalty points that it really became enforced.

I really wish they'd just ammend the original Act and re-release it.

restaurants

as.eirinn wrote: »

Hello all...
I want to ask if anyone else does not carry they're drivers licence? I have never done so, nor 'am likely to do so in the future.

I think it is a good idea to carry it.
Less hassle is you are pulled over.
IMO it should be compulsary.

_Kaiser_

I just leave mine in the car, it's not a big deal (well I suppose if the car was stolen it'd be a bit annoying trying to get it replaced alright!).

It doesn't necessarily save you a trip to the station though as I've often heard of people being asked to go down with their insurance paperwork regardless of having a license and valid disc available on the spot.

cullen5998

Why not have it in your car and you can then choose not to show it or show it.

Midnight_EG

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I just leave mine in the car, it's not a big deal (well I suppose if the car was stolen it'd be a bit annoying trying to get it replaced alright!).

It doesn't necessarily save you a trip to the station though as I've often heard of people being asked to go down with their insurance paperwork regardless of having a license and valid disc available on the spot.

That's why I always keep my Insurance Policy underneath my chair in the car at all times :]

vang

When will we get a credit card size licence? It would make it easier to carry especially when you drive more than one vehicle. How long will it take our politicians and civil servants to work it out like any other country?

smoochie06

I dont carry mine with me because i drive different cars all the time so its not as easy as saying just throw it in the glovebox.

I agree with the other posters who say we need a credit card sized one. Then i would be able to keep it in my wallet with no hassle.

Cabaal

k_mac wrote: »

The way I see it the op has made the common mistake of assuming he has the right to drive a car. There is no right to drive. It is a priviledge. That is why it is regulated. If you don't like having to carry a licence you can use public transport and your movement isn't restricted.

Fully agree, its clear the OP has made this very much incorrect assumption and hence his slight ranting about "free movement".

MagicSean

vang wrote: »

When will we get a credit card size licence? It would make it easier to carry especially when you drive more than one vehicle. How long will it take our politicians and civil servants to work it out like any other country?

They are supposed to be coming in quite soon for new licences and renewals. That was before the big bang though.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I just leave mine in the car, it's not a big deal (well I suppose if the car was stolen it'd be a bit annoying trying to get it replaced alright!).

It doesn't necessarily save you a trip to the station though as I've often heard of people being asked to go down with their insurance paperwork regardless of having a license and valid disc available on the spot.

The disc is useless. It's the actually certificate that is proof of insurance.

Andrew33

PCPhoto wrote: »

the "issue" with a national ID card is that some "liberals" believe (rightly or wrongly) that they shouldnt be dictated to by the government - so the government says do this.... and they ask why !

Thank you! Question everything the govt does and challenge it if it deserves to be challenged. Carrying an ID card does not make the world or Ireland ANY safer. It will not impede the criminals one bit (does a ban on firearms stop anyone getting shot in Ireland?) but it would give the authorities the right to arrest you on the spot for not being able to prove who you are even if you've done nothing more than nip to the shops for a litre of milk! "The price of freedom is eternal vigilence (and surveillance)"

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

BigEejit

Thoie wrote: »

It originally came from the Road Traffic Act 1994, Section 25

40.—(1) ( a ) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

The wording was later amended in 2006 to "learner permit" and to make the phrase "production to him" tidier.

It was always an offence (well, since 1994 at least), it was just with the introduction of penalty points that it really became enforced.

I dont get it ..... is this legislation specifically for provisional licenses?

as.eirinn

Saruman wrote: »

That is strange... I am sure it was blatantly announced back in the early noughties that it was now an offence to drive without your license on you and since then I keep it in my wallet.

I have no source for this, it was announced on the radio.

You certain there is no law?

Why else would this requirement not only be posted on the RSA but also on most county council sites and Citzens Info website?

I understand that the offence is that you produce it at a station of your choosing within 10 days...the 'offence' is not producing it...

as.eirinn

k_mac wrote: »

The way I see it the op has made the common mistake of assuming he has the right to drive a car. There is no right to drive. It is a priviledge. That is why it is regulated. If you don't like having to carry a licence you can use public transport and your movement isn't restricted.

The regulation is section 18 of the Road Traffic Act 2002 which ammends section 40 of the Road Traffic Act 1961. Basically it just changes the wording so that production is required on the spot. So there are now three driving.licence offences.

1) No licence produced on the spot
2) Failing to produce a licence in 10 days
3) Driving a vehicle without having a valid licence issued

correct me if im wrong but aren't they talking about provisional liciences here?


18.—Section 40 of the Principal Act (as inserted by the Act of 1994) is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (1) of the following subsections:

“(1A) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her of a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence and is a person falling within section 35(1) of this Act, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) References in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of subsection (1), and in the subsequent subsections of this section to a driving licence shall be construed, in relation to a person specified in subsection (1) who is a person falling within the said section 35(1), as references to a provisional licence.

(1B) Where a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section or is required under paragraph (b) of that subsection produces, in accordance with the demand or request, a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle concerned—

(a) the person shall not be guilty of an offence under the said paragraph (a) or, as the case may be, the said paragraph (b), and

(b) paragraph (d) of that subsection shall be construed, in relation to any production of the provisional licence in accordance with the said paragraph (b), as if the references in the said paragraph (d) to a driving licence were references to a provisional licence.”.

as.eirinn

restaurants wrote: »

I think it is a good idea to carry it.
Less hassle is you are pulled over.
IMO it should be compulsary.

well then, why is it not?...and why has nobody been prosecuted for not doing so...as i was reliably informed by a member of the gardai...

2 Espressi

Tell you what, how about throwing the licence into the glovebox, and when you're asked for it by Plod, refuse to show it? That way you can have the best of both worlds!

MagicSean

as.eirinn wrote: »

correct me if im wrong but aren't they talking about provisional liciences here?

Yes sorry I got the wrong ammendment. Don't worry though. The offence will be quoted on the summons you get and it'll tell you which act and ammendments the offence is under too.

MagicSean

as.eirinn wrote: »

well then, why is it not?...and why has nobody been prosecuted for not doing so...as i was reliably informed by a member of the gardai...

You are not required to carry it. You are required to produce it on the spot. Boils down to the same thing really. And there have been plenty of prosecutions for it.

as.eirinn

k_mac wrote: »

The way I see it the op has made the common mistake of assuming he has the right to drive a car. There is no right to drive. It is a priviledge. That is why it is regulated. If you don't like having to carry a licence you can use public transport and your movement isn't restricted.

The regulation is section 18 of the Road Traffic Act 2002 which ammends section 40 of the Road Traffic Act 1961. Basically it just changes the wording so that production is required on the spot. So there are now three driving.licence offences.

1) No licence produced on the spot
2) Failing to produce a licence in 10 days
3) Driving a vehicle without having a valid licence issued

now you said it chief 'production is required on the spot' these are YOUR words...

here's what it actually says...

“(1A) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her of a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence and is a person falling within section 35(1) of this Act, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.


no mention of 'on the spot' as you put it...nowhere is this term found...if im wrong please correct me...

MagicSean

as.eirinn wrote: »

now you said it chief 'production is required on the spot' these are YOUR words...

here's what it actually says...

“(1A) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her of a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence and is a person falling within section 35(1) of this Act, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.


no mention of 'on the spot' as you put it...nowhere is this term found...if im wrong please correct me...

I don't see your point. If a Garda demands your licence you are obliged to produce it. Not to do so is an offence. Are you just arguing the wording of the legislation? You think there should be some sort of time aspect to the wording. It's something you can challenge in the high court I suppose but it's probably already been established in case law.

as.eirinn

k_mac wrote: »

You are not required to carry it. You are required to produce it on the spot. Boils down to the same thing really. And there have been plenty of prosecutions for it.

please post the prosecutions, they would be reported somewhere...this will back up your statement...The reason I say that not one single person in this state has been prosecuted for failing to produce they're licence at at garda checkpoint but only for failing to produce it at a later date that was required is because I cannot find any reports anywhere...and i've looked high up and low down...let me know if you find any as I believe there are none...

Henry Ford III

Why not just carry your license? Compliance can make life so much more straightfoward.

as.eirinn

k_mac wrote: »

I don't see your point. If a Garda demands your licence you are obliged to produce it. Not to do so is an offence. Are you just arguing the wording of the legislation? You think there should be some sort of time aspect to the wording. It's something you can challenge in the high court I suppose but it's probably already been established in case law.

i didnt think 'case law' had anything to do with it?...it's the 'road traffic act'....case law's a new one on me

as.eirinn

BigEejit wrote: »

I dont get it ..... is this legislation specifically for provisional licenses?

it would appear so, but they update the act every few years so who knows?

as.eirinn

cullen5998 wrote: »

Why not have it in your car and you can then choose not to show it or show it.

great idea!!!...

MagicSean

as.eirinn wrote: »

please post the prosecutions, they would be reported somewhere...this will back up your statement...The reason I say that not one single person in this state has been prosecuted for failing to produce they're licence at at garda checkpoint but only for failing to produce it at a later date that was required is because I cannot find any reports anywhere...and i've looked high up and low down...let me know if you find any as I believe there are none...

I have prosecuted people myself. That's the only proof I can offer. If that's not good enough I suggest going to a district court and observing the summons cases. Most people will brought to court for drivin licence will be prosecuted for all three driving licence offences.

as.eirinn wrote: »

i didnt think 'case law' had anything to do with it?...it's the 'road traffic act'....case law's a new one on me

Caselaw (judges decisions in courts) clarifies ambiguities in the legislation.

joolsveer

I carry mine in my wallet all the time but I have never been asked to produce it. It has gone very tatty from being in the wallet. I wish they would issue a plastic credit card size version.

as.eirinn

Cabaal wrote: »

Fully agree, its clear the OP has made this very much incorrect assumption and hence his slight ranting about "free movement".

this is incorrect...it is a privilege...and i comply with the 'regulation' as have said in my very first post...tax, insurance and nct all in order with a full clean licience...where was the 'slight rant'? i asked a simple question and still have no answer...

as.eirinn

k_mac wrote: »

Yes sorry I got the wrong ammendment. Don't worry though. The offence will be quoted on the summons you get and it'll tell you which act and ammendments the offence is under too.

the only summons i would receive is one for 'non production of my licence'...not for 'not producing it at a checkpoint'...this is what i understand, nothing more...

MagicSean

as.eirinn wrote: »

this is incorrect...it is a privilege...and i comply with the 'regulation' as have said in my very first post...tax, insurance and nct all in order with a full clean licience...where was the 'slight rant'? i asked a simple question and still have no answer...

I suggest you post your question in the legal discussion forum where someone might be able to help you further because you seem to be challenging the interpretation of the Road Traffic Acts and not the Act itself.

as.eirinn

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why not just carry your license? Compliance can make life so much more straightfoward.

I said at the start there'd be comments like this...if my car is road legal and i have a driving licience...i am within the law. if am within the law why do i need to carry it with me?...life would be straightforward if the government didn't have vauge acts that people think are 'the law'...they are not!