"Irish Shooters Digest"/NARGC Newsletter

bunny shooter

After looking at this months "Irish Shooters Digest" the question just has to be asked (the one in the poll) :rolleyes:

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

deeksofdoom

bunny shooter wrote: »

After looking at this months "Irish Shooters Digest" the question just has to be asked (the one in the poll) :rolleyes:

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

How many years did it take for you to work that one out, of course it is!

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Wonder will they post any letters that don't support Des Crofton ?

They will on occasion, but you'd find that there'll be a rebuttal letter in the same issue, which requires them to pass on notice of the letter and await a response before going to print. I can't recall offhand any other individual or organisation being afforded the same treatment.

Dvs

You know this sort of thing never ceases to amaze me,
even in the microcosm that is the shooting forum,
we spend a lot of time saying that all shooting disciplines should work together, we should not take this demonization of shooting sports and hunting, we should put our differences aside, we should support those that stand up to the poor treatment that is dished out to sports shooters and hunters.

And then when a small sample of hundreds of letters of support for an individual and organisation that is actually doing that are published, this kind of nit picking takes place.

Des Crofton and I have not always seen eye to eye, but I for one am happy to put that behind me, when shooting sports and hunting are being subjected to a concerted ongoing attack by the state, political parties and their looney fringe for their own ends.

And so should everyone else,
involved in shooting sports and hunting.


Dvs.

bunny shooter

deeksofdoom wrote: »

How many years did it take for you to work that one out, of course it is!

I had it worked out a long time ago Just reckon it's worth mentioning in light of the recent issue

Sparks wrote: »

They will on occasion, but you'd find that there'll be a rebuttal letter in the same issue,

I have noticed that myself

Sparks wrote: »

which requires them to pass on notice of the letter and await a response before going to print.

Agreed, which is a snub to the original letter writer or a cute ploy to stimulate further correspondence in an effort to promote a "row"

Sparks wrote: »

I can't recall offhand any other individual or organisation being afforded the same treatment.

Neither can I which is why the circulation of that magazine is smaller than it could be :rolleyes:

bunny shooter

Dvs,

A response in your usual style

I wonder was the "other" person/s contacted and shown these letters and asked if he/they wanted to reply before the magazine went to print in the same way Des would be?

Fairness in all things is important

Funny you mention about all the shooting organisations working together I think that is what Des & NARGC were being critised for in the statment that started this war of words :P

From my reading of it the shooting participants on the FCP had no meeting since Dec 2008. Des was Chairman of the shooting participants as NARGC was the organisation with the largest membership. Therefore it is/was his responsibility to ensure there were/are meetings to make sure all the shooting parties interests are being looked after.

Here is the Statement from the SSAI website

Statement by Joe Costello -

Firearms Consultative Panel representative notice.

I represent the SSAI on the shooters panel of the Firearms Consultative Panel and as such I bear responsibility for the vast majority of target shooters in Ireland.

In the early days of the Firearms Consultative Panel much was discussed and co-operated on, however for a long period of time, in spite of calls to convene a meeting to discuss matters of great importance, no shooting panel meeting has been called.

The last meeting of the Shooters panel was in Early December 2008.

The past 12 month period has seen the most radical changes to many aspects of our shooting sports.

The whole transformation of the licensing system has come about without a panel meeting.

Even our appointment with the Minister for Justice was not preceded or followed by a meeting. No cohesive strategy was discussed, no pooling of resources, no advice sought.

I have continued to strive to obtain the best deal possible for all target shooters and have constantly over this time liaised with both the Department of Justice and the Gardaí on their behalf. Good progress has been made on many issues and it is an evolving process.

It is important therefore to note that announcements in the media purporting to be made with the consent of the Firearms Consultative Panel or on behalf of the Firearms Consultative Panel , or creating the impression that some form of consensus has been arrived at by the shooting panel are false.

No actions have been approved by or are the result of consultation and agreement with the SSAI representative. Indeed some of the views expressed and actions taken apparently on behalf of the Shooters Panel and Firearms Consultative Panel, are in my opinion potentially damaging to both good working relationships we have established and our sports of target shooting.

Joe Costello

Chairman SSAI – FCP representative

This statement is a personal statement from Joe Costello and does not

necessarily represent the views of the NGB's within the SSAI

Bananaman

Sweet Jaysus

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote at an SSAI meeting last year
"If you put an Irishman on a spit he will turn it himself" - never a truer word except perhaps "If you put an IrishMan on a spit - the rest of them will turn it"

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Who cares if NARGC have loads of content in the Irish Shooters Digest?

The people who read it - that's who.

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

As to who said what, when, where and to who over the last few years.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are - we now have to fight it - TOGETHER. If we prevail we can have a Nuremburg but until we do, we should all focus on the problem to hand - namely the obvious policy to outlaw target shooting and hunting - or more specifically - private firearms ownership for that use - in Ireland.
The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Too many sideline goalkeepers if you ask me.

B'Man

Mr Mole

Likewise, I would not in the past have supported some of the views of Mr Crofton, however, it appears that he has now seen through the deceipt that abounded in certain departments, and has taken appropriate action to show the displeasure of the general shooting community at the abject failure of the implimentation of the so called new licensing system.

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

I wish Mr Crofton every success, and he has my confidence to do what is right for shooters in general.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote

Guys have a habit of doing that, though my favorite quote by Voltaire seems never to be used for some strange reason.

Voltaire wrote:

A witty saying proves nothing.

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Well, it would have to be true, that's not so much speculation as the inability of someone to read something before it's generally published unless they are given a preview of it.

As to who gives a rodent's posterior, well, someone cared enough to start the thread here. And we generally don't stomp on shooters who get wound up enough about something to complain about it, though we don't prevent the object of their complaints from counter-arguing either, nor interested parties from presenting counter-argument (as your post exemplifies).

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

Indeed, in terms of action, that's about all the law permits.
That, and talking about it elsewhere in non-libellous form.
Which is what the OP appeared to be doing.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are

Since quotes seem to be important, perhaps the classic quote referring to the fate of those who care not for history would be worth keeping in mind...
...and if not, perhaps the logical development of your proposition should be (namely, that all it takes to get away with blue murder is to get away with it for long enough).

The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

Indeed, but the problem is that most of the unhappiness between groups (and to be fair, there's little enough of that -- it's like airline crashes, exceptionally infrequent but exceptionally widely reported upon) is down to people going for others sports. Even Des is not immune to that (and I say so having personally witnessed such an incident, but I also say so knowing that incident was not necessarily malicious but politic; the problem is, politic statements have inbuilt assumptions of priority and those priorities are areas which require debate and agreement, not mere decrees).

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Indeed, and fair applause when they prevail; but it's a tricky game and one where failure leads to a clampdown on everyone so it's hardly fair to say that comment is irrelevant merely because someone's not sitting in the courtroom. Haven't we all gotten slapped to one measure or another by the Charleton judgement? And were we all in the courtroom for that?

The first rule of the forum charter is for civility, not silence. It is perfectly possible to have a civil yet vehement disagreement with someone. In fact, it's not merely possible, it's a foundation of modern society, and I don't like this tendency in our shooting community to try to stifle it and insist that you're "with us or agin' us", it's borderline insulting.

Sparks

Mr Mole wrote: »

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

Indeed, and Mr.Crofton likewise had no official role in calling or chairing meetings of the shooting association members (though there is, as always in our little island, a difference between official roles and de facto roles); and it was those private meetings between the shooting bodies that jaycee's letter referred to.

bunny shooter

Bananaman wrote: »

Sweet Jaysus

A guy used a famous Cromwell quote at an SSAI meeting last year
"If you put an Irishman on a spit he will turn it himself" - never a truer word except perhaps "If you put an IrishMan on a spit - the rest of them will turn it"

You do realise that in UK Cromwell is looked upon as a hero. Amazing how a villian to some is a hero to others

Bananaman wrote: »

Who gives a rats ass if Des Crofton gets a preview of the Digest? Even if it is true.

Sparks has covered this and no I don't give a "rats ass" just that it's funny it's so obvious :P

Bananaman wrote: »

Who cares if NARGC have loads of content in the Irish Shooters Digest?

I bet NARGC do and the editor as it fills his pages. Just wonder if Des gets paid :P

Bananaman wrote: »

If you don't like it - don't read it - simple as.

Wow ! Startling conclusion there :P

Bananaman wrote: »

As to who said what, when, where and to who over the last few years.

WHO CARES - it's history - we are where we are - we now have to fight it - TOGETHER. If we prevail we can have a Nuremburg but until we do, we should all focus on the problem to hand - namely the obvious policy to outlaw target shooting and hunting - or more specifically - private firearms ownership for that use - in Ireland.
The greatest weapon that can be used against us is out own willingness to go for each others throats.
The greatest defense we can have is to stand as one.

It looks like we're still NOT standing together though. Looks like NARGC are going on a solo run :rolleyes: But then they do have a lot of money behind them, apparently :eek:

Bananaman wrote: »

If someone decides to stand up to the unfair application of the law - fair dues to them - I for one will not give a hoot who they are or why they are doing it - it needs to be done and fair play to them for doing it.

Easy when it's not your own money.

Mr Mole wrote: »

Likewise, I would not in the past have supported some of the views of Mr Crofton, however, it appears that he has now seen through the deceipt that abounded in certain departments, and has taken appropriate action to show the displeasure of the general shooting community at the abject failure of the implimentation of the so called new licensing system.

Jasus, I predicted this here at the start of the FCP process :mad:

Mr Mole wrote: »

On another note, I understand that Mr. Crofton was not Chairman of the FCP, and has no role in calling any meetings. The Chairman is / was Mr Garrett Byrne of DOJ&LR on behalf of the Minister.

Where did I say he was Chairman of the FCP ? I stated Shooting bodies.

Mr Mole wrote: »

I wish Mr Crofton every success, and he has my confidence to do what is right for shooters in general.

I wish him every sucess too but some of his money is MINE and a lot of my shooting friends and very few of them have pistols !

Sparks wrote: »

Well, it would have to be true, that's not so much speculation as the inability of someone to read something before it's generally published unless they are given a preview of it.

He obviously missed that edition :P

Sparks wrote: »

As to who gives a rodent's posterior, well, someone cared enough to start the thread here. And we generally don't stomp on shooters who get wound up enough about something to complain about it, though we don't prevent the object of their complaints from counter-arguing either, nor interested parties from presenting counter-argument (as your post exemplifies).

I wasn't actually complaining more commenting on it

Sparks wrote: »

That, and talking about it elsewhere in non-libellous form.
Which is what the OP appeared to be doing.

I was/am

Sparks wrote: »

Since quotes seem to be important, perhaps the classic quote referring to the fate of those who care not for history would be worth keeping in mind...
...and if not, perhaps the logical development of your proposition should be (namely, that all it takes to get away with blue murder is to get away with it for long enough).

Endeminic in all walks of life in this country :rolleyes:

Sparks wrote: »

The first rule of the forum charter is for civility, not silence. It is perfectly possible to have a civil yet vehement disagreement with someone. In fact, it's not merely possible, it's a foundation of modern society, and I don't like this tendency in our shooting community to try to stifle it and insist that you're "with us or agin' us", it's borderline insulting.

:cool:

Sparks wrote: »

Indeed, and Mr.Crofton likewise had no official role in calling or chairing meetings of the shooting association members (though there is, as always in our little island, a difference between official roles and de facto roles); and it was those private meetings between the shooting bodies that jaycee's letter referred to.

Have seen people in various clubs over the years push themselves to the fore and then assume "command" but officially they don't hold any such position and therefore it's easier for them to wash their hands when it all goes wrong.

cavan shooter

The irish Shooters digest magazine is a magazine which you love to hate, every month I say its crap, i'm not buying it then I go out and buy it again and again and again.

The standard of articles to the main is very poor, However anyone that really wants to contribute can, because every month there is an invite for anyone to contribute.

So NARGC and Mr. crofton has an article in the magazine on a monthly basis, well why not. The magazine is predominently a hunting/gun dog/clay pigeon magazine. I'm sure if articles where submitted on target shooting it would get printed. I'd guess the target shooters (rifle and pistol) are in a minority, that the majority of readers are traditional hunting folk and thats what the publisher aims his articles for.

Des Crofton and the NARGC comes in for a lot of flack from people and I suppose there is a bit of a "Marmite" complex around the chap, however as I see it its the NARGC and "Mr. Marmite" thats fighting the fight at present. That he should be given the credit for at least.:)

jwshooter

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .

i would think not.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .
i would think not.

I would think that this month's ISD would be insufficient evidence to decide how to vote in that poll jw. You'd have to have read the ISD for a few years to decide; or to have noted the interplay between the three main people involved (the ISD's editor, the ISD's main advertiser, and Mr.Crofton himself).

Given the propensity for Irish shooters to fill time between details on the range, the latter could be considered public domain information, given that in this case "public" refers to "shooters".

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

the 21 people that voted in the poll so far , you all have read this months ISD ? .

i would think not.

Yes I have and have been reading it for the last 7 years, at least.

God knows I'm stuck for something decent to read

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

I would think that this month's ISD would be insufficient evidence to decide how to vote in that poll jw. You'd have to have read the ISD for a few years to decide; or to have noted the interplay between the three main people involved (the ISD's editor, the ISD's main advertiser, and Mr.Crofton himself).

Given the propensity for Irish shooters to fill time between details on the range, the latter could be considered public domain information, given that in this case "public" refers to "shooters".

well then if your not a regular reader of the ISD , how can you vote .

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

well then if your not a regular reader of the ISD , how can you vote .

I would have thought that that was obvious - by being an ex-regular reader of the ISD, or by knowing and having an opinion upon the methods by which it is compiled and printed.

This is less of an exclusive elite group than you might imagine or opine.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

I would have thought that that was obvious - by being an ex-regular reader of the ISD, or by knowing and having an opinion upon the methods by which it is compiled and printed.

This is less of an exclusive elite group than you might imagine or opine.

obvious to you maybe .

Sparks

To be fair jw, the english in post #14 there is not exactly demanding on the reader. You're required to be able to tell past tense from present tense, and that's about the limit of the analytic ability demanded...

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair jw, the english in post #14 there is not exactly demanding on the reader. You're required to be able to tell past tense from present tense, and that's about the limit of the analytic ability demanded...

what waffle .

Sparks

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

So I take it today is pedantic day.






Dvs.

pedroeibar1

I’ve bought it a few times and do not rate it as a good publication.
If it is like most periodicals, it runs about a month behind – e.g. most stories for the May issue are ready by end March. It is a common courtesy for an editor to forewarn any well-known individual if a story is being run about him/her and give them an opportunity to comment. In addition to filling space, it gives a more balanced article and also provides more comprehensive information. Something that is pertinent today is not relevant the month after next and most readers would not give a rodents posterior about a letter of rebuttal on a stale topic.

FWIW
P.

Sparks

It's not the practice of giving a preview itself that's the issue pedro; more the exclusive nature of whom that courtesy is extended to. If it was freely extended to any and all parties named in these letters, that'd be perfectly acceptable; but I can't recall that being the case over the last decade or so.

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

It's not the practice of giving a preview itself that's the issue pedro; more the exclusive nature of whom that courtesy is extended to. If it was freely extended to any and all parties named in these letters, that'd be perfectly acceptable; but I can't recall that being the case over the last decade or so.

I take your word for it. As neither subscriber nor reader of the ISD I’m not qualified to comment (which is why I did not vote.) However, if the ISD is reliant on advertising or advertorial from NARGC, what’s new with media one-sidedness? It’s just another brick in the wall of comment that the standard of professionalism in Irish journalism is dismal.
P.

jwshooter

the vast majority of game shooters in ireland are in the nargc or CA, the ISD is a ideal platform for the nargc aand CA to inform there members what's happening .
i cant see the problem , the ISD would be committing suicide to not roll in with the major sporting interests .ICPSA,NARGC,CA,RFDA ,RISE.

a lot of sportsmen only buy the ISD .

i know that interests on boards have in the past had words with the ed of the isd so i would hold little regard for there comments .this spite how long winded they are.

Kryten

Just what we need, more infighting. Des seems to have have seen the FCP for what it was set up for. An information gathering device for the DOJ/Gardai. Sorry If I seem a bit conspiracy theorist or paranoid, but I do feel shafted on the whole renewal of previously licenced centerfire pistol, and the ridiculous refusal.

My father has probably been labelled as a nay sayer or a glass half empty type of guy, but has been saying for 3 years now that we would get shafted when the new system comes in... He was right I think...

Fair play to Des sticking up for us. I feel he has my (and many others) interests at heart. I am not a hunter, never have been. Shot a hare in January for food in Aus, but that is the extent of it. We need to be united on this and not trying to nit pick everything that is said in the ISD.

This is why I am not even going bother with a vote on this Poll. I have yet to see evidence that the ISD wont publish a reasonable article or letter sent in by the shooting population.

My only critisism, although minor, is that all these letters, articles, opinions and rants are not published to a wider media reading population. By publishing in the ISD, you are really preaching to the converted. Now how to get this level of anger and frustration into the general media publications, I do not know. While they say we have no censorship and freedom of speech in the press, I dont reckon we will get very far. In my opinion, most journalists want to demonise guns and people who use them, whether legal or illegal. I reckon we will be all tarred with the same media brush.

Apologies for being so negative,

But I am so P***ed at being victimised for my sport. :mad::mad:

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I prefer verbosity to pomposity myself, and indeed to vulgarity on my good days.
On my bad days, I might be tempted, should you catch me at a bad moment, to be more... concise.

Sparks have you swallowed a set of collins dictionaries?:D

I never bought ISD, I sometimes pick up the mag in easons or whereever and look at the articles on Rifles pistols etc, then i decide, there is a lot of waffle to be had in the pages.

I once wrote a letter to the taoiseach in regards to Restricted firearms.
I got a reply directed at the author of an ISD article, Even though it was nothing to do with my points and questions.
I did not know what to do.
As I did not want to be tarred with the same brush as the person writing the article,But I was by someone else's hand So I just bit my lip and said nothing.

I still have the reply from DOJ, When I had an interview for my restricted gear I was glad I was assessed on my own knowledge and ability not on anybody else's views.
Upside of new regulations I got my mod legalised and ammo out to a capacity to fulfill my needs.
I have seen both sides of the fence in regarding licencing in Ireland, for a young chap like myself:D

The ISD always to me was heavily weighted with Nordie adverts and articles, even though they are the minority on this Island.
Wild articles in the ISD about pistols etc only undermine good work in negotiation by some of us.
Everybody here would like a more liberal approach to firearms but asking retorical questions like and I quote" Have the gaurds lost the plot?" do not help our cause.I think that was from a a 2008 article in ISD, I was given a copy by a mate which I help on to for posterity

But at the risk of getting in trouble for my opinions I will shut up now:D

bunny shooter

Kryten wrote: »

Just what we need, more infighting.

"In fighting" :eek:

It a human trait in us all

The Irish have for their entire history been "in fighting" and our oppressors, whether internal or external, have used it against us/each other and continue to do so

By the way the poll contains a question not an accusation therefore, this is not "in fighting" it's ****e stirring if anything

jwshooter

as axl rose said in the RDS a few years ago ( the fighting fxxking irish )

Grizzly 45

As Spike Milligan said on the fighting Irish.
"They have won battles and wars for everyone else,except for themselves."