"Irish Shooters Digest"/NARGC Newsletter

xesse

Here lads
there is loads of talk here on how to fix the problem with the firearms law in this country
There,s what the FCP should do, the SSAI,NARGC,NTSAI,NASRPC should do and ,
Then there is what Y O U are doing
How many on here actually have pistols,even .22 unrestricted ones?
Now how many were at the last pistol shoot?
Answer that and you have the problem with pistol shooting in this country

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

Here lads
there is loads of talk here on how to fix the problem with the firearms law in this country
There,s what the FCP should do, the SSAI,NARGC,NTSAI,NASRPC should do and ,
Then there is what Y O U are doing
How many on here actually have pistols,even .22 unrestricted ones?
Now how many were at the last pistol shoot?
Answer that and you have the problem with pistol shooting in this country

Unfair, I do not need, nor does anybody need to compete to own!!
If you like to hurl you do not have to play the game, you can go to a GAA field and hit a few points goals etc.
I myself get the luxury of firing HK 9mm for free every year!
I bought a glock .40 as it was cheaper than an Olympic pistol. That does not mean I have to go to shoots that are on on weekends to suit people who work regular 9-5

A lot of us shooters/Hunters like the sport coz we can fit it around our work.

I believe your comment is unfair.
I never shoot competition but I use the range, does that mean I am not entitled to be there?

I was attending a Range on and off since 1999, And yet I think I was maybe in 2 or three competitions.
I shoot coz I love it. Not to compete......
I have enough stress in my life, so why would i want the stress of competition.
P.S I have done as much as the next guy for the sport, I do it every day by educating anybody who asks for my help, or pointing them in the right direction if i do not know the answer.

xesse

yea yea whatever
would the GAA be as big as it is if every player just hit a few slithers around a field?
maybe they would try to licence the hurl as it could be deemed an offensive weapon lol

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Unfair, I do not need, nor does anybody need to compete to own!!
If you like to hurl you do not have to play the game, you can go to a GAA field and hit a few points goals etc.
I myself get the luxury of firing HK 9mm for free every year!
I bought a glock .40 as it was cheaper than an Olympic pistol. That does not mean I have to go to shoots that are on on weekends to suit people who work regular 9-5

A lot of us shooters/Hunters like the sport coz we can fit it around our work.

I believe your comment is unfair.
I never shoot competition but I use the range, does that mean I am not entitled to be there?

I was attending a Range on and off since 1999, And yet I think I was maybe in 2 or three competitions.
I shoot coz I love it. Not to compete......
I have enough stress in my life, so why would i want the stress of competition.
P.S I have done as much as the next guy for the sport, I do it every day by educating anybody who asks for my help, or pointing them in the right direction if i do not know the answer.

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

yea yea whatever

I take it you are a 9-5er then so!

xesse

There are postal competitions too
if we as shooters dont bring up the profile of pistol shooting in this country
we could well see an outright ban on pistols down the line,
so if everyone shot a few competitions , raising the profile of pistol shooting
we all might save the sport in this country
it might even save you a legal battle in the future if the powers that be decide there is no reason to licence pistols
It seems to have worked for the clay and trap guys

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I take it you are a 9-5er then so!

Bananaman

Xsesse has a point - for many people applying for their cf pistols this time found their ch super wanted proof of competition

Sure the majority of competitions are on at weekends as that suits the majority of people

NASRPC or your club would be more than willing to facilitate those that cannot attend these weekend shoots - just start the discussion with them and see what happens

I also agree that competition should not be a requirement but it helps the argument - to take away someones hobby can be sold to the public by the Minister easily but to abolish a sport is more difficult - I know he has done it already with IPSC but he did that as a solo run against the opposition and his own party using the party whip - when he sells the PR, if you do not take part in competition you are a gun enthusiast=bad as opposed to a sportsperson=good. In the end it is the guns he is after, all of them - not the sports - he is only after the sports as it removes the 'reason' for having them.

Range attendance should be sufficient to show you have been target shooting but competition attendance can only help and to some Gardai is the only acceptable proof. Right now for Centrefire Pistol but for everything else in due course.

A good example was the NASRPC fundraiser is hilltop earlier this year - over 100 competitors - that cannot be referred to as anything other than a major sporting event.
It is events like that and mass participation that will make it more difficult for the Minister to take it away from us.

It's also great craic - politics be-damned.

B'Man

PS: I'm a 7 to 7'er

bunny shooter

The only reason they looked for participation in competitions as a requirement to have a firearm for target shooting was because they knew very few participated in competitions and I reckon they got that nugget of information from here

My own Super, bless his cotton socks, once I mentioned target shooting with my firearms, as well as hunting for all but one, wanted to know what competitions, at what level and how often I entered competitions :eek: I have and do enter competitions but not as many as I'd like as I work shifts which include weekends, days and nights, and it's not always possilble to be off for competitions, unfortunately

The fact I am a member and regulary attend, often weekly, during the week if I'm working the weekends, an authorised range did not seem to be good enough :mad:

Thankfully I got to keep what I had but I reckon he was trying to make a case to revoke some of my licences :mad:

Tackleberrywho

xesse wrote: »

There are postal competitions too
if we as shooters dont bring up the profile of pistol shooting in this country
we could well see an outright ban on pistols down the line,
so if everyone shot a few competitions , raising the profile of pistol shooting
we all might save the sport in this country
it might even save you a legal battle in the future if the powers that be decide there is no reason to licence pistols
It seems to have worked for the clay and trap guys

I was able to say I shoot HK with the DF, and as a result My Pistol shooting was for practicing on my own time.

It's not the winning that's important, it's the taking part.

I have helped loads of guys fill out FA applications this year, and wrote cover letters for them.

Thats How I helped the sport!
Pistols are the same as rifles, are the same as shotguns, we all like to shoot them. Once we can shoot in a safe way, have a record of positive safety etc.

My local SGT asked ME if I would "Coach a few guys on what to say for their interview with the chief" As the local boys in blue have deemed me as a responcible chap and I have educated them over the years, explaining differences in calibres to them in a simple and easy to understand way!

Hence I never have any problem with them.
As I said, I go to the Range, that is my histroy. I know of lads that compete and were refused.
So does that put a hole in your arguement??;)
And If you compete you know who I am talking about!
As my previous point was, Attendance is all that is required and common sense, which is not that common;)

Grizzly 45

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

pedroeibar1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

Grizzly,
I see where you are coming from and accept much of your argument. However, there is a thin line between one’s “right” and fulfilling one’s “requirement.” A polite, non-confrontational stance is more likely to succeed than one of quoting law and his own rulebook at the CS. Approaching it in a positive way, as if obtaining the licence was just a matter of course, is the best way, with a polite smile. Remember, the FO has a boss who must not be annoyed, and so along up the line to the CS. In the event of an unpleasant incident involving a firearm, the Minister can do a Pontius Pilate and blame the CS "For granting a licence to hold a dangerous WEAPON." So, it is much easier (as always) for everyone along th eline to say “No” than “Yes” to an FCA1 application.



From what I’ve seen, including the responses to Parliamentary Questions, I have concluded that the Minister has in a cowardly fashion shirked his responsibility and passed the decision to the Chief Super with little or no guidance, evidenced by the large number of variations in questions and excuses region by region. The wording of the Act, the Minister's obnoxious position and the role of the “persona designate” is the issue that should be tackled by the pistol people.

P.

xesse

Whats wrong with doing a few competitions even if you aren,t to pushed about winning just to stack the odds in your favour when licence renewal comes around again?:DIf you really want something in this life, you have to work for it - Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers!;)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FFS PEOPLE!!! WOULD YOU ALL STOP falling into this goddam TRAP about COMPETITIONS!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Would somone please show me in any of our firearms acts that it is a REQUIREMENT of your liscense that you shoot competitions on approved ranges???????Why the HELL do we have to keep giving our enemy ammo that we seem to be in tacit agreement with them that approved competitions are the only suitable reason to shoot handguns?????
Whats next??That if you dont shoot a "suitable amount of times" on your range you arent suitable to own a handgun?That if you dont win somthing at least three times a year you arent suitable??
That if you didnt shoot a national average you are unsuitable to own a handgun?That you havent repersented Ireland at least once in your life you are not suitable to own a firearm in your chosen sport??
Sorry,unless I woke up in the GDR ,Soviet Russia or N Korea this morning
This kind of attitude to shooting is contemptible coming from us Irish gunowners.
Keep it to whats there...If a super says how many competitions have you shot..Simply say "Did you put that pre condition on my liscense?" If not none of your damn busisness,and we will discuss it in the DC!
Stop giving these people more rope for which they are tying knots in for us to hang ourselves with.Honestly!!

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Grizzly,
I see where you are coming from and accept much of your argument. However, there is a thin line between one’s “right” and fulfilling one’s “requirement.”

Indeed P ,however there are certainly no "rights" here re gun ownership,and as for "responsibilities" .They are laid down in the FA of various years. I cant find anywhere in them that shooting in "competitions "is a precondition,or a requirement.Not to mind we dont have a defination of what a competition is here.

A polite, non-confrontational stance is more likely to succeed than one of quoting law and his own rulebook at the CS.

Well, unfortuneatly for most of us going to the District Court on these matters.The time for that is long past.Also,the CS is as much obliged to obey the law of the land and the FA as you and me.He has been issued guidelines as to what he can,or cannot do.If he is starting to add in or make it up as he sees fit,then we are not in a democratic state but in one of an arbitariy police state.My point is,we do not have to assist them in agreeing that this is a good idea to hang ourselves.

Whats wrong with doing a few competitions even if you aren,t to pushed about winning just to stack the odds in your favour when licence renewal comes around again?If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it - Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers

!



First ,I want a defination in LAW as to what a competition actually is?

Second,I dont want to give those lot more ideas to deny anyone elses liscenses when they have enough dictatorial powers to do so already.

Third. Whats to say then if you are shooting "competitions" some other idiotic and vexing precondition is added,and supported by the unthinking amongst us as another good idea for appeasing the great God Cheif Super?There comes a time where we have to draw a line in the sand and say"enough"Either we all play on a level pitch without moving goal posts,or we then decide not to bother with a rule book at all and just go and do as we please here in society.

Fourth.Well aware of having to work for anything I have.I would consider a 2year six month ,running battle to gain a liscense three years ago as earning it,not to mind willing to take my cases to the Supreme court if necessary.:mad: Anyone coming along on that ride?????

xesse

i think i will draw a line in the sand here too

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed P ,however there are certainly no "rights" here re gun ownership,and as for "responsibilities" .They are laid down in the FA of various years. I cant find anywhere in them that shooting in "competitions "is a precondition,or a requirement.Not to mind we dont have a defination of what a competition is here.

Well, unfortuneatly for most of us going to the District Court on these matters.The time for that is long past.Also,the CS is as much obliged to obey the law of the land and the FA as you and me.He has been issued guidelines as to what he can,or cannot do.If he is starting to add in or make it up as he sees fit,then we are not in a democratic state but in one of an arbitariy police state.My point is,we do not have to assist them in agreeing that this is a good idea to hang ourselves.

!



First ,I want a defination in LAW as to what a competition actually is?

Second,I dont want to give those lot more ideas to deny anyone elses liscenses when they have enough dictatorial powers to do so already.

Third. Whats to say then if you are shooting "competitions" some other idiotic and vexing precondition is added,and supported by the unthinking amongst us as another good idea for appeasing the great God Cheif Super?There comes a time where we have to draw a line in the sand and say"enough"Either we all play on a level pitch without moving goal posts,or we then decide not to bother with a rule book at all and just go and do as we please here in society.

Fourth.Well aware of having to work for anything I have.I would consider a 2year six month ,running battle to gain a liscense three years ago as earning it,not to mind willing to take my cases to the Supreme court if necessary.:mad: Anyone coming along on that ride?????

Sikamick

Please correct me if I’m wrong, did the Minister not state somewhere that firearms licenses are for sporting and recreational purpose. I have not seen anywhere in the act or commissioners guide lines that one has to be competitive to get a firearms license.

If one has to be competitive to get a firearms license where does this leave game or rough shooters, how do they prove that they are using their firearms, does one drag an odd deer to the local station as proof.

Sikamick

Bananaman

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

Sikamick

Bananaman I totally agree with your sentiment, but to be competitive is not a prerequisite to getting a firearms license.

Example: we have a club member been told he cant have a telescopic sight for his .22 rifle by his firearms officer, (WHY) because he ticked the box on the FCA1 form 3.2 (Sights/other specify)he put down (Telescopic sights).

Off the wall or what? but this is the decision of his firearms officer because of the way he filled out the form.

Sikamick

Bananaman wrote: »

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

cavan shooter

I think that actively partaking in the sport and actively partaking in competition is splitting hairs. Ok I do not shoot pistol, no interest how ever I shoot clays, Im not registered with the ICPSA but will shoot local flappers/ county shoots, club shoots etc.

Is it not good enough to be a member of a club, have proof that you use the firearm at the range, to justify the use of the firearm for sporting purposes, as a hobby.

Really all it takes is for a club to classify all members who shoot based on scores handed in like a golf society. Then you can clearly see that Mr. x is a active member who shoots and is classed at 15th in a club of 25 etc etc.

Just a suggestion

sidneyreilly

cavan shooter wrote: »

I think that actively partaking in the sport and actively partaking in competition is splitting hairs. Ok I do not shoot pistol, no interest how ever I shoot clays, Im not registered with the ICPSA but will shoot local flappers/ county shoots, club shoots etc.

Is it not good enough to be a member of a club, have proof that you use the firearm at the range, to justify the use of the firearm for sporting purposes, as a hobby.

Really all it takes is for a club to classify all members who shoot based on scores handed in like a golf society. Then you can clearly see that Mr. x is a active member who shoots and is classed at 15th in a club of 25 etc etc.

Just a suggestion

Your dead right.

Its where the firearm in question is restricted is where the water muddies somewhat insofar as the covenant of the only type suitable blah blah blah comes into play.

Whole thing is mad anyway

Grizzly 45

Bananaman wrote: »

Ladies

I feel a spin down the garden path is upon us

a number of people have pointed out that there is competition there if people want to take part in it

they have pointed out that if people want to but cannot attend competition due to scheduling that solutions can be found

that competition should not be a requirement and is not a requirement under law but for some Gardai it is

that competition is recommended as it is good craic - allows you to meet more people interested in shooting, see more shooting ranges, support more shooting clubs and ranges, learn form other shooters, clubs and ranges and get some perspective and a more balanced view on what is happening countrywide, firsthand as opposed to through the rumour mill. It exposes you to new codes, disciplines and firearms

it removes much of the jingoism and inate distrust between isolated members of the shooting community and helps them to act as one and defend each other as 'the shooting community' rather that sniping at each oth 'from behind the toilet brush' (to coin a phrase)

nobody is either compelling anyone nor suggesting that they must take part in competition - that is a personal choice -

I for one just think it's a good idea and can highly recommend it


B'Man

Indeed Bman I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments of the above post.It is just however that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
This is just way too open to be not abused by either side of the arguement..After all I could see a shooting organisation abusing this just as easy as the Gardai/DOJ..Say that the only competitions held that are recognised by the Gardai are the only "offical" ones sanctioned by the respective organisation?IOW a friendly club match of skittle shooting or bullseye isnt any good unless it is recognised and sanctioned by the offical shooting body.
I can see all sorts of horror scenarios developing with a shooting body putting into effect,[for some reason more than the Gardai in this case]things like ,excessively lengthy training periods to coin more money out of their members and regimenting the sport so much to make sure only "genuine" people partake in competitions. Or that their cert is the ONLY recognised saftey qualification and none else will do be they from the EU or whereever..[FFS we have enough of that nonsense with HCAP trying to creep out of the Coilte woods .] Not to mind knowing Ireland and the way Golden circles and cosy cartels worked,it is a good chance that this could be corrupted and subjected to cronyism,favourtism and back handers,under the guise of becoming an approved shooter.
Sorry,I shoot to relax,not to repersent Ireland,fill up other peoples pockets,or be regimented by being told where,what,how and with what I can shoot.So long as we are safe,and sane and shooting on safe ranges or areas,and as mature adults take responsibility for our actions or inactions in obeying the law.There should be NO reasons for us or our shooting bodies to be adding more chains to our already well manacled hands.
As the wicked witch of the West once said to Judy Garland "Be careful for what you wish for.You might just get it"

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed Bman I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments of the above post.It is just however that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
This is just way too open to be not abused by either side of the arguement..After all I could see a shooting organisation abusing this just as easy as the Gardai/DOJ..Say that the only competitions held that are recognised by the Gardai are the only "offical" ones sanctioned by the respective organisation?IOW a friendly club match of skittle shooting or bullseye isnt any good unless it is recognised and sanctioned by the offical shooting body.
I can see all sorts of horror scenarios developing with a shooting body putting into effect,[for some reason more than the Gardai in this case]things like ,excessively lengthy training periods to coin more money out of their members and regimenting the sport so much to make sure only "genuine" people partake in competitions. Or that their cert is the ONLY recognised saftey qualification and none else will do be they from the EU or whereever..[FFS we have enough of that nonsense with HCAP trying to creep out of the Coilte woods .] Not to mind knowing Ireland and the way Golden circles and cosy cartels worked,it is a good chance that this could be corrupted and subjected to cronyism,favourtism and back handers,under the guise of becoming an approved shooter.
Sorry,I shoot to relax,not to repersent Ireland,fill up other peoples pockets,or be regimented by being told where,what,how and with what I can shoot.So long as we are safe,and sane and shooting on safe ranges or areas,and as mature adults take responsibility for our actions or inactions in obeying the law.There should be NO reasons for us or our shooting bodies to be adding more chains to our already well manacled hands.
As the wicked witch of the West once said to Judy Garland "Be careful for what you wish for.You might just get it"

Here here, Well said. Life is stressfull enough at the mo, workin for the Man, Never mind given the man your last scent.
I love going shooting with one to two mates max.
We can spot for each other and have the craic and talk about girls:D

I'm not dissing competitions, just they are not my thing. I like to drink too but I don't go into competitions for drinking beer.
I have my own clay trap and like to break clays over a ploughed field.

It was NORMAL for me growing up for clays pidgeon to be in the neighbours field in Feb - March. Something to do in spare time.

Is there not enough rules and restrictions that we have to abide by?
We work hard all week/weekend when we are off we like to do what we enjoy, for me that is shooting.

Not getting up @8am on a sunday to be in time for registering for a comp, I'd prefer to roll over and have another hours kip.:D

But each to his own!
So calm down with the competition lark lads.
If I go to range, Targets in front, Bang, bang, Bang. targets down, go home.
What is wrong with that??
And I often go to thje range mid week, whats wrong with that either

This is tack, signing off