Luas in Waterford

Sully

With all the talk of Dublin getting a Metro and with their own Luas line running around Dublin, I thought it might be a nice discussion to talk about, in the unlikely event, Waterford given some form of Luas line.

Where would you have it running? How often?

I'd like to see one from the Railway station, covering the bus station, the clock tower, out towards ardkeen and also out towards WIT. Also would be good to have one covering the back of the town up by Ballybricken etc.

I find the bus service a bit slow and unreliable at the best of times and a Luas would really add to the city.

abouttobebanned

Would it be possible to run one across the bridge with the lifts?

CantGetNoSleep

Could have 2 lines

One starting in Ballybeg, finishing in train station, other starting on Dunmore Road, finishing by the Hypermarket, with both lines meeting somewhere in city centre

ziedth

I think you would def need to service WIT to make the serious doe.

I guess train station-quay-harveys-woodies-wit.

Maybe second line quay-Newtown-hospital-woodlands.

Be very handy but I doubt the dunmore road line would make any money

Asmodean

Interesting idea and one that has often been brought up before as a sort of "pie in the sky" concept. I think that it isn't as ludicrous an idea as I'm sure some people would think. The bus services in Waterford leave a lot to be desired at times ( no buses on sunday for example, or the fact that the buses here are only about half the size of other cities ) which I suppose can be attributed to demand for the service.
There was talk about running a luas/tram line throughout Galway city, which has been laughed off by pretty much everyone and only a handful of politicians are still trying to strive for it. I do think though that a luas type system would be far more beneficial and feasible in a city like ours rather than somewhere like Galway, which has a larger suburban population but the street size/transport infrastructure is much more cramped.
A nice route would be from the train station and in across the bridge, up the quay and out the Dunmore road, with a branching line heading out the mall and out the tramore/cork road.

abouttobebanned

Will someone address my bridge concerns...

Sully

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Would it be possible to run one across the bridge with the lifts?

Perhaps the building of a special bridge? Is there not plans for a pedestrian bridge anyway, maybe it could be integrated into that? The current bridge is simply to busy to use a lane for Luas and not wide enough for construction of a dedicated line (assuming the lift issue could be addressed).

A luas towards Ardkeen IMO would do very well. People going to the hospital, the loads of housing estates, Tesco and bowling etc.

ziedth

I'm sure it wouldn't matter, Luas only travels on a track right? It doesn't have any overhead wires or anything I think.

abouttobebanned

That pedestrian crossing by the tower would be the best thing to ever happen to the city imo.

The luas would be fantastic for the city...but is a bridge too far I think. (apologies)

abouttobebanned

ziedth wrote: »

I'm sure it wouldn't matter, Luas only travels on a track right? It doesn't have any overhead wires or anything I think.

The ones in Dublin all have over head wiring.

ziedth

Ah,

I stand corrected.

foxylad2

instead of reinventing the wheel -
extend the Suir Vally Railway -
think there are already plans to extend it into the city
would be a lot more economical!

Bol_Whelan

Think we should focus on getting a decent bus service that can move people around the city. If travelling from the Dunmore road to the Industrial estate, do you still need to take 2 buses ? If I did not have a car, how would I get to Harvey Norman from Ardkeen ?

A bus service that goes along the outer ring road down the cork road into town and back out the dunmore road in a loop (perhaps in both directions), would do so much for public transport in the city. Much more than a tram covering an already well serviced route.

dayshah

foxylad2 wrote: »

instead of reinventing the wheel -
extend the Suir Vally Railway -
think there are already plans to extend it into the city
would be a lot more economical!

Go from Kilmeaden to Waterford, then along the quay, out to railway square, and then out to Tramore.

Lets face it though, the train station is in a terrible location. Best thing would be to move it somewhere.

merlante

Had some fun with this idea when it came up during the boom. I fear there are two many cities ahead of us in the pecking order, but for what it's worth, the following network would cover a population of 60,000 (Waterford + Tramore + park & ride in Slieverue?). Wouldn't electrify the Tramore one, too much distance for too little population, plus you'd have problems on Rice bridge with wires. Diesel/biofuel engines would do the job.

With the benefit of hindsight, I might add the WIT campus in Carriganore onto the Gracedieu to Brasscock line.

jayboi

What problems do people think would stand in the way?
Personally I think a lot of the streets and roads are too narrow, like the dunmore road for example would their be room for a tram lane?
Would we need 2 lanes for a tram ingoing and outgoing?

If we had a tram in the town id like to see the car parks on the quay removed.
I’d like the reliability of a tram service.

How much did the Dublin one cost?

I remember someone telling me before that there were plans to put the train station down at bilberry back in the day which would of been the job, might have brought a bit of life down that part of town.

Gael23

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

Stan Nangle

A Luas system is really only cost effective when you have a population over half a million or so.

For a City the size of Waterford a solution running on rubber tyres, with its own engine, is the way to go.

These vehicles could run on the roads, in bus lanes, or on dedicated trackways.

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

Trick of the Tail

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The ones in Dublin all have over head wiring.

But they don't have to have overhead power, the same design trams as the Luas are used in some European cities with 3rd rail power.

Only the section of the power rail that has a tram on top of it is switched live, so its perfectly safe.

A.

rasper

nice thoughts but won't happen, we've got some of the worst public transport in the country, e.g Tramore-Waterford every 60mins at peak time , unbelivable, no wonder people can't/won't use it

Trick of the Tail

ryanf1 wrote: »

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

So would I, it wouldn't take much doing as the line is still officially 'open' anyway.

A railcar could be used on the line; judging by the traffic entering Waterford from the New Ross direction in the mornings and trying to enter NR from Waterford in the eves, there seems to be substantial commuter traffic.

A Park & Ride facility around the north quays might work, or extend the line over the bridge and out towards the industrial estate partially along the alignment of the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway.

It'll never happen though!

A.

Dum_Dum

Stan Nangle wrote: »

...

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

I hope the copy and paste job "Waterford City URBAN & COMMUTER BUS TIMETABLE" isn't the shape of things to come.

If you want the buses to work in Waterford you need:
integrated ticketing, timetabling, numbering and branding
timetables and shelters at bus stops
punctuality
family and day savers, timed tickets, encouragement of cashless systems to speed-up boarding
get rid of confusing circular routes
adopt clockface timetables

dayshah

ryanf1 wrote: »

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

But old people don't have to pay, so they won't make it viable.

Its commuters that we need to attract.

merlante

Stan Nangle wrote: »

A Luas system is really only cost effective when you have a population over half a million or so.

For a City the size of Waterford a solution running on rubber tyres, with its own engine, is the way to go.

These vehicles could run on the roads, in bus lanes, or on dedicated trackways.

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

Possibly, but there are much smaller cities <100,000 people with tram systems.

For example,
Frankfurt-am-Oder, Germany
Population: 61,286
1 Tram line: http://www.vbbonline.de/download/pdf/liniennetze/141208_Frankfurt.pdf

Görlitz, Germany
Population: 56,461
2 Tram lines:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/goer/goerlitz.htm

The population Waterford/Tramore is 60,000 and growing quickly.

I think what makes the investment more worthwhile in the Irish context is that Irish cities are small but growing very quickly. The German cities mentioned are either in decline or are stagnating. Furthermore, they are near the bottom of the urban hierarchy as opposed to near the top, as in Ireland. An urban centre of 50,000-100,000 people is Ireland is a regional capital, and principle centre for a population of 350-500,000.

The idea that public transport should pay for itself, particularly from the get go, is a very anglo-saxon view. In other countries, public transport is seen as something you should just do because it's a good thing.

I do accept though that there are a lot of things we need to do in this country before we build tram lines in Waterford. For starters, a bus system that is almost 100% reliable, linked up with integrated, time based or `total-journey' based ticketing would go a long way. People do, however, much prefer trams, and I think that trams offer the most attractive prospect for commuters and the best hope of getting people out of their cars.

dayshah

I wonder if the hill situation is important. Waterford is a bit more hilly than Dublin.

Partizan

A stupid and pointless thread. For a population the size of Waterford there is absolutley no need for a Luas like service in Waterford city. What is needed is proper integrated public transport between bus and rail. The first port of call for blame lies with IE & BE. There is absolutley no link up or joined up integrated transport link between the two. Both IE and BE are in competition between the two which should not happen.

First rail lines are there, to Dublin, Limerick, New Ross and Rosslare. New Ross line has been shut since the mid 1990s and the Rosslare line has been deliberatly run into the ground. The Waterford to Limerick Junction service is being scaled back and run on times that would be an inconvenience to many people. What I am getting at here is the root of the problem...commuter rail. It doesnt exist. Why cant there be a regular and reliable service from New Ross, Campile, Kilmac, Clonmel-Carrick and Thomastown? If we get that right and implement bus corridoors in Waterford city then Waterford and the South East has a reliable and cost effective transport service. Building Luas lines from Ballybeg and Dunmore Road would be a waste and divert much needed service away from vital capital rail projects.

In short the following should be done:
1) Bus corridors in Waterford city and regular buses from Waterford to Tramore and the surrounding townds and villages.
2) Reopen Waterford to Kilmac line with intermediate stations at Kilmac, Park & Ride at Kilmeaden, WIT Carriganore and Plunkett station with connecting bus from rail station to the city.
3) Provide regular 2 hourly services from Clonmel to Waterford and onto Wexford with linking trains to/from Dublin. Connecting buses to meet these services.

Would cost the guts of 60-80 million euro but for that you would get a top class public transport service.

merlante

Partizan wrote: »

A stupid and pointless thread.

Why bother commenting then?

Some people like the idea. I just pointed out two other cities of more or less the same size which have tram lines, so your opinion on what a city the size of Waterford 'needs' is just that, your opinion.

Agree with your comments on Iarnrod Eireann. What you're suggesting would not be cheap either though.

THall04

Partizan wrote: »

A stupid and pointless thread. For a population the size of Waterford there is absolutley no need for a Luas like service in Waterford city. What is needed is proper integrated public transport between bus and rail. The first port of call for blame lies with IE & BE. There is absolutley no link up or joined up integrated transport link between the two. Both IE and BE are in competition between the two which should not happen.

First rail lines are there, to Dublin, Limerick, New Ross and Rosslare. New Ross line has been shut since the mid 1990s and the Rosslare line has been deliberatly run into the ground. The Waterford to Limerick Junction service is being scaled back and run on times that would be an inconvenience to many people. What I am getting at here is the root of the problem...commuter rail. It doesnt exist. Why cant there be a regular and reliable service from New Ross, Campile, Kilmac, Clonmel-Carrick and Thomastown? If we get that right and implement bus corridoors in Waterford city then Waterford and the South East has a reliable and cost effective transport service. Building Luas lines from Ballybeg and Dunmore Road would be a waste and divert much needed service away from vital capital rail projects.

In short the following should be done:
1) Bus corridors in Waterford city and regular buses from Waterford to Tramore and the surrounding townds and villages.
2) Reopen Waterford to Kilmac line with intermediate stations at Kilmac, Park & Ride at Kilmeaden, WIT Carriganore and Plunkett station with connecting bus from rail station to the city.
3) Provide regular 2 hourly services from Clonmel to Waterford and onto Wexford with linking trains to/from Dublin. Connecting buses to meet these services.

Would cost the guts of 60-80 million euro but for that you would get a top class public transport service.

I agree , bit of a pointless thread , but the sad fact is we had what would now be called a sub-urban rail , park and ride service.....but it got closed down fifty years ago.....back then it was called the Tramore Train.

Imagine how the development of Waterford would have changed if they kept it open , there'd be houses all the way out to Tramore and the Dunmore road would be countryside

dayshah

Some people are probably thinking, 'Dublin has 1million people and only 2 tram lines, so what can Waterford expect with 50,000'. However we should bear in mind the generally woeful public transport in Dublin.

In contrast Brussels has a similar population to Dublin, 6 metro lines and about 15 tram lines. Thats roughly 1 line per ...
50,000 people!!!

I would prioritise the "Green Route" however, and have a decent network of cycleways, replace Kenneallys with a decent service, put timetables in bus shelters, GPS bus tracking, integrated ticketing etc. Then I would think about a kilmac to Waterford to Tramore line.

Partizan

dayshah wrote: »

Some people are probably thinking, 'Dublin has 1million people and only 2 tram lines, so what can Waterford expect with 50,000'. However we should bear in mind the generally woeful public transport in Dublin.

In contrast Brussels has a similar population to Dublin, 6 metro lines and about 15 tram lines. Thats roughly 1 line per ...
50,000 people!!!

I would prioritise the "Green Route" however, and have a decent network of cycleways, replace Kenneallys with a decent service, put timetables in bus shelters, GPS bus tracking, integrated ticketing etc. Then I would think about a kilmac to Waterford to Tramore line.

It simply would not be feasable to reopen the line to Tramore. Much of the old alignment has been built upon and where the old station stood in Railway Square is now occupied by an apartment block. If you want to rebuild the Tramore line, what alignment would you use, where would you put the level crossings, how do you overcome the topography and where would you now put the stations? It would cost hundreds of billions to build just 10km of track needed. It woudl be better value for money to reopen 1) Put in a decent bus service in the city which would serve Tramore, Dunmore, Ballygunner, Passage, the city itself with bus lanes and 2) Reopen the Waterford - Dungarvan line as far as Kilmac (Stations at Kilmac, Kilmeadan Park & Ride, WIT Carriganore, Waterford South) for a fraction of the cost. A new train station could be built where the halting site is now or on the site of the old Foundry and have shuttle buses from Waterford South to Plunkett Station, the city and bus station.

Now that would be better value for money.

merlante

Partizan wrote: »

It simply would not be feasable to reopen the line to Tramore. Much of the old alignment has been built upon and where the old station stood in Railway Square is now occupied by an apartment block. If you want to rebuild the Tramore line, what alignment would you use, where would you put the level crossings, how do you overcome the topography and where would you now put the stations? It would cost hundreds of billions to build just 10km of track needed. It woudl be better value for money to reopen 1) Put in a decent bus service in the city which would serve Tramore, Dunmore, Ballygunner, Passage, the city itself with bus lanes and 2) Reopen the Waterford - Dungarvan line as far as Kilmac (Stations at Kilmac, Kilmeadan Park & Ride, WIT Carriganore, Waterford South) for a fraction of the cost. A new train station could be built where the halting site is now or on the site of the old Foundry and have shuttle buses from Waterford South to Plunkett Station, the city and bus station.

Now that would be better value for money.

Hundreds of billions? I really think we have a skewed idea of how much things cost because of what we paid for things during the boom when labour was expensive and government contracts were very generous.

Trams, such as the Luas can go on streets or on ordinary tracks where they exist.

I'm not pushing the tram idea ahead of everything else, just pointing out that it wouldn't cost *that* much.