Cork's Rudest Bar Staff? ***MOD WARNING POST #87***

Dermighty

Max001 wrote: »

Thats NOT what the previous poster said. They said the policy must be applied uniformly, or not at all. Do you search / pat down everyone, or just those who you identify as risky in some respect?
Doormen/bouncers/whatever have a rotten reputation for a reason. They themselves created it. Theres no one else to blame. Courtesy costs nothing and respect has to be earned.

We search everyone, male and female. By omitting this from my previous post I assumed it was given as read that everyone was searched (ie: not specific individuals). My mistake if this wasn't clear.

Doormen have a bad reputation because, before it was a licensed business, people were treated very differently by doormen, often incorrectly and violently, the exact opposite of how things are run where I work.

I'm not blaming anyone else for anything.

Courtesy does indeed cost nothing. I was working tonight, I can think of at least 15 separate incidents, witness by a single bouncer (me), where people showed zero courtesy and zero respect to others around them (myself included). If I'm discourteous to somebody I'm an asshole bouncer on a power trip but what people tend to forget is that in a club situation it's 50-50. Half the people are grand and the other half are witless idiots running around like headless chickens. It's part of my job so I'm used to it, but I really don't think the general public should be painted as 100% kind, sheepish, genuine people up against the bouncers.

Everyone in the club is a customer and a person. I am a person, at work in the club. Outside the job, I'm no different from anyone else.

BArra

got asked for ID at havanas recently

all our group were well dressed and at least 24 years old and we look it, until he asked me for ID and i said all i have is old college ids from 2007/8

he was lamping on about needing ID's and my buddys international ID was useless to him, even though it has multiple stamps and offical logo's.

i was about to get annoyed, but for whatever reason he just let us all in

i mean whats the point?

oeb

BArra wrote: »

got asked for ID at havanas recently

all our group were well dressed and at least 24 years old and we look it, until he asked me for ID and i said all i have is old college ids from 2007/8

he was lamping on about needing ID's and my buddys international ID was useless to him, even though it has multiple stamps and offical logo's.

i was about to get annoyed, but for whatever reason he just let us all in

i mean whats the point?

More often or not, the point is simply to engage you at the door. That way he can get a judge of you manner and/or level of intoxication.

ondarack

Dermighty wrote: »

Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)


I'm a licenced doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but i'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervine if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our durastiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket

ondarack

Dermighty wrote: »

Just to clarify a few things:

Too much drink on board = you are not getting in because I, my manager or the owner wish to deny you access, which is allowed as we reserve the right to refuse admission.

Might as well fix your post for you.

Might as well fix your post for you.

You cannot tell ANYONE that they have too much drink on board! Whether they do or not, that is only your opinion and you must state this!

oeb

ondarack wrote: »

Dermighty wrote: »

Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)

I'm a licensed doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but I'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervene if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our jurisdiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket

No, being searched is a condition to entry. It's fine to do it outside the door, (as long as they are in the que to come in) in fact you are better off doing it there. Your security company and/or venue is responsible for training you on how to search, just as they are the ones responsible for instructing you in methods of safe removal etc.

The reason you are advised to not intervene in a fight outside the premises is that if you injure someone, or someone tries to claim for any other reason then the insurance company most likely won't pay out (And a judge is likely to look poorly on it).

colblimp

Dermighty wrote: »

Based on the way you're speaking about bouncers I assume you're either a stay at home internet warrior or someone who has gotten hassle from bouncers before. Nobody is perfect, even bouncers :rolleyes: . Welcome to reality, in every profession there are good people and bad people, and I'll bet that whatever profession you're in is not exempt from that either.

I'm not a 'stay at home internet warrior', nor have I ever 'received hassle' from 'bouncers' before - FYI, I don't drink and I don't frequent Nightclubs. My, you're really angry, aren't you?

ondarack

oeb wrote: »

No, being searched is a condition to entry. It's fine to do it outside the door, (as long as they are in the que to come in) in fact you are better off doing it there. Your security company and/or venue is responsible for training you on how to search, just as they are the ones responsible for instructing you in methods of safe removal etc.

The reason you are advised to not intervene in a fight outside the premises is that if you injure someone, or someone tries to claim for any other reason then the insurance company most likely won't pay out (And a judge is likely to look poorly on it).

I never disputed the fact that you can search people as i've stated in previous posts...i'm merely stating my valid opinion from what i know you cannot search on the street.

You are correct,your insurance will not cover you if you intervene in a fight outside the front door as it is not on your premises. Why then is it ok to search outside your premises?? Also, the doormen that I have seen do this, do it alone.....who is there to verify that he did get permission to search from a potential client??

corkcomp

I've not been reading this thread but IMO anyone who is getting grief from bouncers without a genuine reason should vote with their feet and tell their friends so they can do the same. re the being searched, it is perfectly legal if the patron agrees to it, if they dont they wont get searched and probably wont gain entry, so again if somebody doesnt like this just go elsewhere..

ondarack

I dont think myself, oeb and Dermighty will come to agree on doorman practices in cork. We have clearly been taught from different rulebooks, i'm not saying that they are wrong...I could be wrong for all I know. But as I say, I have been licensed and it is clearly a problem with the training if some people are being told 1 thing and others are being told different, like myself and the boys above.

oeb

ondarack wrote: »

I never disputed the fact that you can search people as i've stated in previous posts...i'm merely stating my valid opinion from what i know you cannot search on the street.

You are correct,your insurance will not cover you if you intervene in a fight outside the front door as it is not on your premises. Why then is it ok to search outside your premises?? Also, the doormen that I have seen do this, do it alone.....who is there to verify that he did get permission to search from a potential client??

Ok, slowly this time.
By standing in the que outside a nightclub, a customer is indicating that they wish to enter the premises. In some clubs, being searched is a condition of entry. You can search someone ANYWHERE if they give you permission. If a person does not wish to be searched, then they walk away. There is no law or requirement relating to the number of people who are required for a search. The reason having multiple people present is to ward against people claiming sexual assault or theft. (And having good camera coverage can help this)

In most premises, searching inside the door would be a hazard.

CB19Kevo

oeb wrote: »

Ok, slowly this time.
By standing in the que outside a nightclub, a customer is indicating that they wish to enter the premises. In some clubs, being searched is a condition of entry. You can search someone ANYWHERE if they give you permission. If a person does not wish to be searched, then they walk away. There is no law or requirement relating to the number of people who are required for a search. The reason having multiple people present is to ward against people claiming sexual assault or theft. (And having good camera coverage can help this)

In most premises, searching inside the door would be a hazard.

No reason why a search cant be done at the Door, Its the safest place to conduct it and if people dont want to be searched they dont have to come in. Simple as that. Venues can refuse anyone once theres good reason.

oeb

CB19Kevo wrote: »

No reason why a search cant be done at the Door, Its the safest place to conduct it and if people dont want to be searched they dont have to come in. Simple as that. Venues can refuse anyone once theres good reason.

No it's not.

It's an obstruction, and a fire hazard. Not to mention if you find something that gives you reason to refuse the person, then you need to deal with them inside the door amongst patrons trying to get in and leave rather than outside.

Bill-e

This is an interesting topic to me as I was a bouncer in cork for a year or so back in 2008.
We did searching only on random college nights and all the time during RAG week. I got a bin liner full of naggings one night J (sorry poor college students)
College students are normally broke so it’s only logical for them to attempt to bring in their own drink. I did it all the time back in the day! We would search them and confiscate the booze or allow them to leave with it but probably not let them back in knowing that he/she probably just downed it.
When I did the door I left nearly everyone in. I was a bit of a softie, as I remember how crappy it was when I couldn’t get in anywhere. Every now and then my manager would tell me via radio who he didn’t want coming in and I’d relay that as politely as I could. If asked why, I’d say the reason if he gave me one or else I’d use the “you seem intoxicated”. When I started I was told that the only 100% legal way to deny access was the you’re too drunk argument. I don’t know if that’s true but that’s what my boss told me. If didn’t like the look of someone I’d quiz them a bit and make it look like I was personally going out on a limb by letting them in. Never failed me.
I think bouncers these days are pretty alright. In my experience, any hot headed dickhead bouncers I worked with normally didn’t last long in the job. You have to be calm and nice to people and avoid getting emotional with it.

questioner

ondarack wrote: »

Dermighty wrote: »

Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)

Dermighty wrote: »

I'm a licenced doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but i'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervine if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our durastiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket

dont know where you did your course pal but searching people is part of the fetac level four program, i did my course as soon as it became mandatory and we had to submit a video of us completing a search.

see page 7 of this pdf

http://www.chevrontraining.net/downloads/C10267.pdf


as for this notion that there is a magic demarcation line where if you put one foot outside the premises your "insurance wont cover you" thats nonsense. Doormen stand outside the door to the premises, technically not on the premises, if you get bottled when your working outside the door to your club do you honestly your employers insurance wont carry you?

Same rules apply to the area reasonably observable from your premises, if two individuals start lamping each other inside your club your not enttiled to chuck them out the door and wash your hands of it saying "well not my problem now" this was precisely the type of meathead doorman idiocy the PSA was supposed to solve. Duty of care extends to a reasonable area outside your premises also.

if i didnt like the look of someone ALWAYS sorry mate too much tonight, even if they were blatantly sober. If youve a problem getting in take a look at yourlsef in the mirror , and ask yourself 2 questions 1. Am i a sham? if yes then deal with it and head to mangans/reds/sidetraxx 2. do i look like/sound/dress like a sham if yes see 1.

oh yeah and asking to talk to the manager is not going to work, Im amazed at hoe many people think that on the busiest night of the week the GM is going to have the time/interest in talking to messy punters who think there entitled to come in.get real. If your serious and feel hard done by call in during the week SOBER and talk to the manager.

Tip for doormen: plenty of people are too dozy to understand the significance of "right of admission reserved" it helps if you phrase it in more accesible terms. I.e." this is private property, if i showed up to your front door would you have to let me in? would you have to give me a reason why? no."

people who think doormen are pricks should go to clubs/pubs where there arent any.

ondarack

I give up

Dermighty

ondarack wrote: »

You cannot tell ANYONE that they have too much drink on board! Whether they do or not, that is only your opinion and you must state this!

Yes I can and I don't have to tell them anything else if I don't want to. Everything I say to a customer is my professional opinion

Esse85

To the majority of people complaining and giving out about doormen/security etc.... do you not realise they are employed for your safety. They do their best to insure people have a safe night.
I've often bein out sober and witnessed some of the hassle/abuse they have to put up with. It looks a stressful job dealing with drunken people who often act the clown and are just intent on causing trouble.

I have always been treated with respect by them as I treat them as "just another human doing their job". Maybe some people should try that.

Papa_Lazarou

Esse85 wrote: »

To the majority of people complaining and giving out about doormen/security etc.... do you not realise they are employed for your safety. They do their best to insure people have a safe night.
I've often bein out sober and witnessed some of the hassle/abuse they have to put up with. It looks a stressful job dealing with drunken people who often act the clown and are just intent on causing trouble.

I have always been treated with respect by them as I treat them as "just another human doing their job". Maybe some people should try that.

Yeah i have nothing but respect for most of them as i know that trouble that they have to deal with half the time. Im probably one of the quietest guys you'll ever meet but the way i have been treated by some bouncers sometimes when i go to clubs leaves a lot to be desired. I never have more than one drink before i go out to a club but some bouncers just seem to try and make it as awkward as possible for some people that are trying to get in.

CB19Kevo

oeb wrote: »

No it's not.

It's an obstruction, and a fire hazard. Not to mention if you find something that gives you reason to refuse the person, then you need to deal with them inside the door amongst patrons trying to get in and leave rather than outside.

Really now - It depends on the venue.
Most clubs wont have much room for searching inside the door and in fact would be more of a h&s concern than being outside.
Also the person may be more likely to cause trouble if they are enclosed as opposed to being on the street if they have something which would result in being denied entry.

With Good queue management there should be no problem with searching at the door.