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Cork's Rudest Bar Staff? ***MOD WARNING POST #87***

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    #92
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    miss_shadow wrote: »
    They don't mind you going in sober but once you have had too much in the club then they will not think twice about chucking you out on the street worse for where..even on you're own!now i know it's you're own responsibility to look after yourself but some women I have seen thrown out can't even stand and their skirt around their waist..can't those sort of bouncers be MAN enough to call them a cab.

    Nice use of chauvinism to support your point there...

    Drunk doesn't just mean you can't do differential calculus like you used to. Drunk means staggering around, spilling your drink, unable to communicate in simple sentences, you get agitated with people etc etc. These are all reasons why drunk people are removed from clubs/pubs, not simply because they've had one more pint than they can handle and they're bringing the average IQ down.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Being realistic: if the girl can walk out, she is her own responsibility. We aren't actually allowed to call cabs for people who are too intoxicated to do it themselves.


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    #93
    miss_shadow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭miss_shadow


    Dermighty wrote: »

    Nice use of chauvinism to support your point there...

    Drunk doesn't just mean you can't do differential calculus like you used to. Drunk means staggering around, spilling your drink, unable to communicate in simple sentences, you get agitated with people etc etc. These are all reasons why drunk people are removed from clubs/pubs, not simply because they've had one more pint than they can handle and they're bringing the average IQ down.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Being realistic: if the girl can walk out, she is her own responsibility. We aren't actually allowed to call cabs for people who are too intoxicated to do it themselves.

    you're hardly walking if you're intoxicated.


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    #94
    SomeFool
    Registered Users Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭SomeFool


    miss_shadow wrote: »
    sorry but i can't believe you got a thanks for that.

    Ah fair play to the poster for giving their side of the story, I found it an interesting contribution to the thread. Brave too given the previous posts, mine included! :)


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    #95
    DamienH
    Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭DamienH


    I particularly don't like the way most bouncers are just so fecking serious all the time. I mean would it kill them to smile and maybe let you think that your business is wanted and appreciated. I can think of barstaff who are nice and at least courteous, and they have to serve every customer left in at least once. You could easily have some banter with barstaff but most bouncers would look at you like you've twelve heads if you said anything.

    I don't live at home anymore and bouncers don't exist over here so it doesn't matter much to me, but people would be a bit more understanding if you treated them with a bit more respect, drunk or not.


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    #96
    BUNK1982
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭BUNK1982


    DamienH wrote: »
    I particularly don't like the way most bouncers are just so fecking serious all the time. I mean would it kill them to smile and maybe let you think that your business is wanted and appreciated. I can think of barstaff who are nice and at least courteous, and they have to serve every customer left in at least once. You could easily have some banter with barstaff but most bouncers would look at you like you've twelve heads if you said anything.

    I don't live at home anymore and bouncers don't exist over here so it doesn't matter much to me, but people would be a bit more understanding if you treated them with a bit more respect, drunk or not.

    Yeah the line up to get past the bouncers is what really gets me, anyone in high spirits is gone - it's like queuing at the post office sometimes.

    I can understand why bouncers are the way they are having to deal with a drunken public and directives from management, but usually go out of their way to make work for themselves!


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    #97
    colblimp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭colblimp


    Dermighty wrote: »
    It's not illegal to search people in the queue. Every single person is asked if they consent to being searched (by people trained to search people properly).

    Er, it is illegal to search people in a queue. Doormen have no more authority to search people than I do, the only people legally allowed to search citizens are the Gardai. No wonder the doormen in Cork have such a bad reputation. It says a lot about your work ethics that you class yourself as a bouncer, these days they're all doormen, or do you literally bounce people out of the door? :rolleyes:


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    #98
    oeb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    colblimp wrote: »
    Er, it is illegal to search people in a queue. Doormen have no more authority to search people than I do, the only people legally allowed to search citizens are the Gardai. No wonder the doormen in Cork have such a bad reputation. It says a lot about your work ethics that you class yourself as a bouncer, these days they're all doormen, or do you literally bounce people out of the door? :rolleyes:

    It's perfectly legal to have a search policy in any premises.

    For Clarity: The only person that can conduct a mandatory search is a member of AGS. But it is perfectly legal for a venue such as a nightclub to have patrons voluntarily submit to a search as a condition of entry. As I mentioned in a previous post though, if there is a search policy it must be applied to everyone. A doorman can not search every second person, or only the ones who look dodgy.

    Also, don't be such a pedant. Bouncer is a term that has been used to describe doorstaff for a long time.


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    #99
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    colblimp wrote: »
    Er, it is illegal to search people in a queue. Doormen have no more authority to search people than I do, the only people legally allowed to search citizens are the Gardai. No wonder the doormen in Cork have such a bad reputation. It says a lot about your work ethics that you class yourself as a bouncer, these days they're all doormen, or do you literally bounce people out of the door? :rolleyes:

    Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been) then we are perfectly entitled to deny entry to those refusing and permit entry to those who are searched and are suitable to enter the premises.


    No.


    Based on the way you're speaking about bouncers I assume you're either a stay at home internet warrior or someone who has gotten hassle from bouncers before. Nobody is perfect, even bouncers :rolleyes: . Welcome to reality, in every profession there are good people and bad people, and I'll bet that whatever profession you're in is not exempt from that either.


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    #100
    Max001
    Registered Users Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Max001


    Dermighty wrote: »
    Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been) then we are perfectly entitled to deny entry to those refusing and permit entry to those who are searched and are suitable to enter the premises.


    No.


    Based on the way you're speaking about bouncers I assume you're either a stay at home internet warrior or someone who has gotten hassle from bouncers before. Nobody is perfect, even bouncers :rolleyes: . Welcome to reality, in every profession there are good people and bad people, and I'll bet that whatever profession you're in is not exempt from that either.

    Thats NOT what the previous poster said. They said the policy must be applied uniformly, or not at all. Do you search / pat down everyone, or just those who you identify as risky in some respect?
    Doormen/bouncers/whatever have a rotten reputation for a reason. They themselves created it. Theres no one else to blame. Courtesy costs nothing and respect has to be earned.


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    #101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Since I was about 22 I have never gotten hassle from any bouncers to be honest, in my younger days I'd get asked for ID occassionnally, the odd time I was refused entry for having too many apparently (wasn't the case though). Generally the only folk I see getting quizzed etc by bouncers are p1ssed, very young looking or sh1tbag looking folk.


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    #102
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    Max001 wrote: »
    Thats NOT what the previous poster said. They said the policy must be applied uniformly, or not at all. Do you search / pat down everyone, or just those who you identify as risky in some respect?
    Doormen/bouncers/whatever have a rotten reputation for a reason. They themselves created it. Theres no one else to blame. Courtesy costs nothing and respect has to be earned.

    We search everyone, male and female. By omitting this from my previous post I assumed it was given as read that everyone was searched (ie: not specific individuals). My mistake if this wasn't clear.

    Doormen have a bad reputation because, before it was a licensed business, people were treated very differently by doormen, often incorrectly and violently, the exact opposite of how things are run where I work.

    I'm not blaming anyone else for anything.

    Courtesy does indeed cost nothing. I was working tonight, I can think of at least 15 separate incidents, witness by a single bouncer (me), where people showed zero courtesy and zero respect to others around them (myself included). If I'm discourteous to somebody I'm an asshole bouncer on a power trip but what people tend to forget is that in a club situation it's 50-50. Half the people are grand and the other half are witless idiots running around like headless chickens. It's part of my job so I'm used to it, but I really don't think the general public should be painted as 100% kind, sheepish, genuine people up against the bouncers.

    Everyone in the club is a customer and a person. I am a person, at work in the club. Outside the job, I'm no different from anyone else.


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    #103
    BArra
    Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭BArra


    got asked for ID at havanas recently

    all our group were well dressed and at least 24 years old and we look it, until he asked me for ID and i said all i have is old college ids from 2007/8

    he was lamping on about needing ID's and my buddys international ID was useless to him, even though it has multiple stamps and offical logo's.

    i was about to get annoyed, but for whatever reason he just let us all in

    i mean whats the point?


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    #104
    oeb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    BArra wrote: »
    got asked for ID at havanas recently

    all our group were well dressed and at least 24 years old and we look it, until he asked me for ID and i said all i have is old college ids from 2007/8

    he was lamping on about needing ID's and my buddys international ID was useless to him, even though it has multiple stamps and offical logo's.

    i was about to get annoyed, but for whatever reason he just let us all in

    i mean whats the point?

    More often or not, the point is simply to engage you at the door. That way he can get a judge of you manner and/or level of intoxication.


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    #105
    ondarack
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ondarack


    Dermighty wrote: »
    Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)


    I'm a licenced doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but i'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervine if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our durastiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket


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    #106
    ondarack
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ondarack


    Dermighty wrote: »
    Just to clarify a few things:

    Too much drink on board = you are not getting in because I, my manager or the owner wish to deny you access, which is allowed as we reserve the right to refuse admission.

    Might as well fix your post for you.

    Might as well fix your post for you.

    You cannot tell ANYONE that they have too much drink on board! Whether they do or not, that is only your opinion and you must state this!


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    #107
    oeb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    ondarack wrote: »
    Dermighty wrote: »
    Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)

    I'm a licensed doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but I'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervene if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our jurisdiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket

    No, being searched is a condition to entry. It's fine to do it outside the door, (as long as they are in the que to come in) in fact you are better off doing it there. Your security company and/or venue is responsible for training you on how to search, just as they are the ones responsible for instructing you in methods of safe removal etc.

    The reason you are advised to not intervene in a fight outside the premises is that if you injure someone, or someone tries to claim for any other reason then the insurance company most likely won't pay out (And a judge is likely to look poorly on it).


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    #108
    colblimp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭colblimp


    Dermighty wrote: »
    Based on the way you're speaking about bouncers I assume you're either a stay at home internet warrior or someone who has gotten hassle from bouncers before. Nobody is perfect, even bouncers :rolleyes: . Welcome to reality, in every profession there are good people and bad people, and I'll bet that whatever profession you're in is not exempt from that either.

    I'm not a 'stay at home internet warrior', nor have I ever 'received hassle' from 'bouncers' before - FYI, I don't drink and I don't frequent Nightclubs. My, you're really angry, aren't you?


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    #109
    ondarack
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ondarack


    oeb wrote: »
    No, being searched is a condition to entry. It's fine to do it outside the door, (as long as they are in the que to come in) in fact you are better off doing it there. Your security company and/or venue is responsible for training you on how to search, just as they are the ones responsible for instructing you in methods of safe removal etc.

    The reason you are advised to not intervene in a fight outside the premises is that if you injure someone, or someone tries to claim for any other reason then the insurance company most likely won't pay out (And a judge is likely to look poorly on it).


    I never disputed the fact that you can search people as i've stated in previous posts...i'm merely stating my valid opinion from what i know you cannot search on the street.

    You are correct,your insurance will not cover you if you intervene in a fight outside the front door as it is not on your premises. Why then is it ok to search outside your premises?? Also, the doormen that I have seen do this, do it alone.....who is there to verify that he did get permission to search from a potential client??


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    #110
    corkcomp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭corkcomp


    I've not been reading this thread but IMO anyone who is getting grief from bouncers without a genuine reason should vote with their feet and tell their friends so they can do the same. re the being searched, it is perfectly legal if the patron agrees to it, if they dont they wont get searched and probably wont gain entry, so again if somebody doesnt like this just go elsewhere..


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    #111
    ondarack
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ondarack


    I dont think myself, oeb and Dermighty will come to agree on doorman practices in cork. We have clearly been taught from different rulebooks, i'm not saying that they are wrong...I could be wrong for all I know. But as I say, I have been licensed and it is clearly a problem with the training if some people are being told 1 thing and others are being told different, like myself and the boys above.


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    #112
    oeb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    ondarack wrote: »
    I never disputed the fact that you can search people as i've stated in previous posts...i'm merely stating my valid opinion from what i know you cannot search on the street.

    You are correct,your insurance will not cover you if you intervene in a fight outside the front door as it is not on your premises. Why then is it ok to search outside your premises?? Also, the doormen that I have seen do this, do it alone.....who is there to verify that he did get permission to search from a potential client??


    Ok, slowly this time.
    By standing in the que outside a nightclub, a customer is indicating that they wish to enter the premises. In some clubs, being searched is a condition of entry. You can search someone ANYWHERE if they give you permission. If a person does not wish to be searched, then they walk away. There is no law or requirement relating to the number of people who are required for a search. The reason having multiple people present is to ward against people claiming sexual assault or theft. (And having good camera coverage can help this)

    In most premises, searching inside the door would be a hazard.


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    #113
    CB19Kevo
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭CB19Kevo


    oeb wrote: »
    Ok, slowly this time.
    By standing in the que outside a nightclub, a customer is indicating that they wish to enter the premises. In some clubs, being searched is a condition of entry. You can search someone ANYWHERE if they give you permission. If a person does not wish to be searched, then they walk away. There is no law or requirement relating to the number of people who are required for a search. The reason having multiple people present is to ward against people claiming sexual assault or theft. (And having good camera coverage can help this)

    In most premises, searching inside the door would be a hazard.


    No reason why a search cant be done at the Door, Its the safest place to conduct it and if people dont want to be searched they dont have to come in. Simple as that. Venues can refuse anyone once theres good reason.


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    #114
    oeb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭oeb


    CB19Kevo wrote: »
    No reason why a search cant be done at the Door, Its the safest place to conduct it and if people dont want to be searched they dont have to come in. Simple as that. Venues can refuse anyone once theres good reason.

    No it's not.

    It's an obstruction, and a fire hazard. Not to mention if you find something that gives you reason to refuse the person, then you need to deal with them inside the door amongst patrons trying to get in and leave rather than outside.


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    #115
    Bill-e
    Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Bill-e


    This is an interesting topic to me as I was a bouncer in cork for a year or so back in 2008.
    We did searching only on random college nights and all the time during RAG week. I got a bin liner full of naggings one night J (sorry poor college students)
    College students are normally broke so it’s only logical for them to attempt to bring in their own drink. I did it all the time back in the day! We would search them and confiscate the booze or allow them to leave with it but probably not let them back in knowing that he/she probably just downed it.
    When I did the door I left nearly everyone in. I was a bit of a softie, as I remember how crappy it was when I couldn’t get in anywhere. Every now and then my manager would tell me via radio who he didn’t want coming in and I’d relay that as politely as I could. If asked why, I’d say the reason if he gave me one or else I’d use the “you seem intoxicated”. When I started I was told that the only 100% legal way to deny access was the you’re too drunk argument. I don’t know if that’s true but that’s what my boss told me. If didn’t like the look of someone I’d quiz them a bit and make it look like I was personally going out on a limb by letting them in. Never failed me.
    I think bouncers these days are pretty alright. In my experience, any hot headed dickhead bouncers I worked with normally didn’t last long in the job. You have to be calm and nice to people and avoid getting emotional with it.


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    #116
    questioner
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭questioner


    ondarack wrote: »
    Dermighty wrote: »
    Repeating what the last poster said, in essence: If our entry policy is such that you need to consent to a search by a person who has been trained to search (as all licensed doormen have been)
    Dermighty wrote: »


    I'm a licenced doorman and was never trained to search. I'm not having a go at you but i'm just stating the fact. When I was doing my training I recall being told that we could not intervine if there was a fight outside the front door as it was outside our durastiction. Surely searching people outside and quite a distance from the door would fall into the same bracket


    dont know where you did your course pal but searching people is part of the fetac level four program, i did my course as soon as it became mandatory and we had to submit a video of us completing a search.

    see page 7 of this pdf

    http://www.chevrontraining.net/downloads/C10267.pdf


    as for this notion that there is a magic demarcation line where if you put one foot outside the premises your "insurance wont cover you" thats nonsense. Doormen stand outside the door to the premises, technically not on the premises, if you get bottled when your working outside the door to your club do you honestly your employers insurance wont carry you?

    Same rules apply to the area reasonably observable from your premises, if two individuals start lamping each other inside your club your not enttiled to chuck them out the door and wash your hands of it saying "well not my problem now" this was precisely the type of meathead doorman idiocy the PSA was supposed to solve. Duty of care extends to a reasonable area outside your premises also.

    if i didnt like the look of someone ALWAYS sorry mate too much tonight, even if they were blatantly sober. If youve a problem getting in take a look at yourlsef in the mirror , and ask yourself 2 questions 1. Am i a sham? if yes then deal with it and head to mangans/reds/sidetraxx 2. do i look like/sound/dress like a sham if yes see 1.

    oh yeah and asking to talk to the manager is not going to work, Im amazed at hoe many people think that on the busiest night of the week the GM is going to have the time/interest in talking to messy punters who think there entitled to come in.get real. If your serious and feel hard done by call in during the week SOBER and talk to the manager.

    Tip for doormen: plenty of people are too dozy to understand the significance of "right of admission reserved" it helps if you phrase it in more accesible terms. I.e." this is private property, if i showed up to your front door would you have to let me in? would you have to give me a reason why? no."

    people who think doormen are pricks should go to clubs/pubs where there arent any.


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    #117
    ondarack
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ondarack


    I give up


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    #118
    Dermighty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    ondarack wrote: »
    You cannot tell ANYONE that they have too much drink on board! Whether they do or not, that is only your opinion and you must state this!

    Yes I can and I don't have to tell them anything else if I don't want to. Everything I say to a customer is my professional opinion


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    #119
    Esse85
    Registered Users Posts: 8,243 ✭✭✭Esse85


    To the majority of people complaining and giving out about doormen/security etc.... do you not realise they are employed for your safety. They do their best to insure people have a safe night.
    I've often bein out sober and witnessed some of the hassle/abuse they have to put up with. It looks a stressful job dealing with drunken people who often act the clown and are just intent on causing trouble.

    I have always been treated with respect by them as I treat them as "just another human doing their job". Maybe some people should try that.


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    #120
    Papa_Lazarou
    Registered Users Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭Papa_Lazarou


    Esse85 wrote: »
    To the majority of people complaining and giving out about doormen/security etc.... do you not realise they are employed for your safety. They do their best to insure people have a safe night.
    I've often bein out sober and witnessed some of the hassle/abuse they have to put up with. It looks a stressful job dealing with drunken people who often act the clown and are just intent on causing trouble.

    I have always been treated with respect by them as I treat them as "just another human doing their job". Maybe some people should try that.

    Yeah i have nothing but respect for most of them as i know that trouble that they have to deal with half the time. Im probably one of the quietest guys you'll ever meet but the way i have been treated by some bouncers sometimes when i go to clubs leaves a lot to be desired. I never have more than one drink before i go out to a club but some bouncers just seem to try and make it as awkward as possible for some people that are trying to get in.


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    #121
    CB19Kevo
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭CB19Kevo


    oeb wrote: »
    No it's not.

    It's an obstruction, and a fire hazard. Not to mention if you find something that gives you reason to refuse the person, then you need to deal with them inside the door amongst patrons trying to get in and leave rather than outside.

    Really now - It depends on the venue.
    Most clubs wont have much room for searching inside the door and in fact would be more of a h&s concern than being outside.
    Also the person may be more likely to cause trouble if they are enclosed as opposed to being on the street if they have something which would result in being denied entry.

    With Good queue management there should be no problem with searching at the door.


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