What's your view of cycle lanes?

monument

As I said over on the commuting and transport thread: Somebody within a cycling advocacy group recently said to me that councils claim they never get complaints about the quality of cycle lanes, so I'm looking to see what exactly are people's opinions of cycle lanes.

The thread including a poll is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65257068

Lumen

There is no option for "I don't use cycle lanes..."

tomasrojo

I hate them with a passion. My heart sinks when I see work beginning to add them to a perfectly usable road, as I know I'm going to start being harrassed by busybodies when I don't use them and I know I'm going to have to proceed very slowly when I do use them.

Nevertheless, I have only contacted Dublin City Council once on the subject, and it was just to tell them that they might reconsider the design of the two-way/contraflow on Inchicore Road, because it was encroached upon by buses and speeding cars so much, as well as being parked on all the time. They said that they'd sent an engineer and he's seen no speeding, no encroachment and no parking. Anyone familiar with the area will know he wasn't trying very hard.

After that, I never bothered again. I mean, why bother when you'll just be told that they know better than you?

short circuit

There is not 1 all encompassing answer for this.

Some are good and I use them. Examples of this being
1. Ranelagh to Sandyford
2. Along the grand canal both ways
3. Navan road till the McDonalds - both ways

Some are just bad due to maintenance issues such as coming back from Sandyford to Ranelagh in a few places and I try to avoid them.

Some are downright stupidly planned ... the one on the Huntstown road in D15 falls in this criteria ... good surface and an area which actually needs it as the traffic on the road is bad and they had an opportunity to do this properly when the road was recently relaid. But they decided to keep it off road and put it alongside the footpath and about 3 mts away from the road. Now there are pedestrians, kids playing soccer, prams etc on it. And to top it all, it is right outside the entrance to Lidl, a school and something else I am not sure what .... so there are always cars waiting to turn onto the Huntstown road standing on the cycle lane ... and something you can't trust even when there are no cars as you never know what is going to come out from one of these gates.

So, if there is a well designed cycle lane, I will use it ... but something which is plain bad like the one above, I won't.

Bad surface, I can complain to the council .. but what about stupidity like above .... not sure complaining will make much difference there.

Ryder

I, almost always, ignore them.
Theyre a cheap and easy way for local authorities to show that 'theyre doing something', irrespective of the fact that they increase risk for cyclists (IMO)

tomasrojo

short circuit wrote: »

Some are good and I use them. Examples of this being
1. Ranelagh to Sandyford
2. Along the grand canal both ways
3. Navan road till the McDonalds - both ways

I know the first two, and I know those roads from before the lanes were put in. I didn't find those roads difficult to negotiate previously. I don't believe those lanes made my journeys any safer or easier. The net effect was zero. Now, that means that those lanes are ok, but it would have been just as good and cheaper to leave the road alone.

I guess you could argue that at least you can get past stalled traffic along the canals at rush hour. Traffic wasn't as bad before the lanes went in, because it was pre-boom, so I can't say what difference they've made in that sense.

short circuit

tomasrojo wrote: »

I know the first two, and I know those roads from before the lanes were put in. I didn't find those roads difficult to negotiate previously. I don't believe those lanes made my journeys any safer or easier. The net effect was zero. Now, that means that those lanes are ok, but it would have been just as good and cheaper to leave the road alone.

I guess you could argue that at least you can get past stalled traffic along the canals at rush hour. Traffic wasn't as bad before the lanes went in, because it was pre-boom, so I can't say what difference they've made in that sense.

I never knew these roads before the lanes were put in .. so can't comment ... but they are nice to use and I am happy to have my own 2 or 3 feet or road .. would be even more pleasurable if parking on them was policed.

The one difference I see when I am cycling on these roads as opposed to roads with no cycle lanes marked is that the traffic passes a lot closer and there are more honks etc.

Also, one thing about these roads is that if the lanes were "marked" on after the road was built, then the older roads were probably wide enough to take the cycle lane + vehicular lane .. and hence didn't make much difference after the cycle lanes were put in.

In a majority of areas, I think the road would have to be widened to make it safer for cycles and cars ... which would beg the question, why not just mark the cycle lanes at the same time.

sumone

Ryder wrote: »

I, almost always, ignore them.
Theyre a cheap and easy way for local authorities to show that 'theyre doing something', irrespective of the fact that they increase risk for cyclists (IMO)

In the draft final report of the of the Review of Cycling in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown (produced by the council) the section on Leopardstown Road from Leopardstown Heights to the N11 says:

The newer measures show how poorly cyclists can be considered in new build. They also demonstrate both the lack of adequate understanding of cyclists' needs and the benefits to be derived from the use of a thorough cycle audit that looks at both strategic and site specific issues.

Elsewhere in the same section it says:
nevertheless they demonstrate the lack of status of cyclists and the ease with which their needs are set aside

This reports is dated February last year. There are plenty of other critical comments, as well as pointing out some good facilities in the county.

tart

Cycle paths are good for kids going to school, slow commuters but not for anybody going over 25kph there`s being too many times when batting into work when there`s kids, dogs people walking, bus stops, driveways, when i and others have nearly come to be a cropper.... I dislike them...

doozerie

I could list those cycle tracks that I believe to be good, bad, or downright dangerous, but instead I think the focus should be on whether cycle tracks ultimately achieve anything useful. Personally, I think that they cause more problems than they solve, primarily by segregating cyclists even further from other road users and thereby widening the divide between these groups. The result is that both drivers and cyclists alike seem to become less tolerant of each other when they do find themselves sharing the same stretch of road, making life harder for everyone.

As I'm sure many people can, I could recount plenty of stories of my having run-ins with drivers that seemed unwilling to accept my right to be on "their" road, but I also have to acknowledge that as a cyclist I am also not very forgiving of drivers that park or drive in cycle lanes (even though they may have done so out of pure ignorance rather than malice) - basically, despite my best efforts, I've fallen into the same trap too of seeing cycle lanes as "my/our" road space and that is not a healthy mindset to adopt. The days before cycle lanes were not exactly idyllic either, but I believe that things have gotten worse since the lanes were put in and many cyclists and drivers alike seem to have given up all efforts of trying to safely and considerately share the same road space.

There seems to be a common perception that cycling in Ireland has become more dangerous in recent years (a view that I don't necessarily share), and this seems to often motivate calls for further cycle lanes to be installed. Ironically, I think that this approach actually aggravates the problem rather than solves it. I'd be in favour of getting rid of all cycle lanes and rely on both education and active enforcement of the rules of the road to gets the minority of idiots amongst all road users to toe the line. Unfortunately though, I can't see that happening, so we remain stuck in this demented half-way house where some of your journey from A to B is on cycle track, some of it on shared road, with both drivers and cyclists randomly making up their own rules of the road on the spur of the moment throughout and seeming to incur no penalty for doing so - no-one wins in that scenario.

coolbeans

They're a ****ing disaster and, in this country at least, have served to knock cycling as a safe and commuter friendly activity back ten years or more.

monument

Thanks for all the responses so-far... Remember to post / cross post view on the other thread. And vote in the poll. Thanks.

doozerie -- at least around Dublin, I don't think cycling has gotten more dangerous in recent years. If anything, it feels like it has gotten safer with more and more people cycling, most HGVs removed from the roads, and now slower speeds in the city centre.

And I was just down in Ballina with the bike and, while I didn't do much cycling, it seems as safe as always (I grew up there). People seem to give you a wider berth than in Dublin -- maybe because of the lack of cycle lanes?

doozerie

monument wrote: »

doozerie -- at least around Dublin, I don't think cycling has gotten more dangerous in recent years. If anything, it feels like it has gotten safer with more and more people cycling, most HGVs removed from the roads, and now slower speeds in the city centre.

And I was just down in Ballina with the bike and, while I didn't do much cycling, it seems as safe as always (I grew up there). People seem to give you a wider berth than in Dublin -- maybe because of the lack of cycle lanes?

I don't agree with the view that cycling has gotten more dangerous either. However, I think that the level of aggression arising during disputes has risen in recent years though - a view based on nothing scientific, just my perception from what I have seen and experienced. Whether this relates to the greater division of cyclist and driver by cycle tracks or not is another topic for debate obviously but my perception is that motorists are more hostile nowadays to cyclists on what they perceive as "their roads". This hostility is expressed more often verbally than by anything else more immediately dangerous, usually.

I believe I've also seen more cyclists have a verbal go at motorists in recent years. Again, it's just my impression but I think that one plausible theory is if people feel themselves fenced in, as some cycle tracks can make you feel, they are probably more likely to lash out at people encroaching/trespassing on that limited space and making them feel threatened.

tomasrojo

short circuit wrote: »

In a majority of areas, I think the road would have to be widened to make it safer for cycles and cars ... which would beg the question, why not just mark the cycle lanes at the same time.

Again, that seems like a good idea, except that cycle lanes lead to closer passes. When a motorist is left to himself or herself to judge how to overtake, he or she tends to give far more room than when Dublin City Council (or whoever) put in a white line to help them make the decision.

They attempted (reasonably successful, I think) to measure this effect out on the road:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/report/cycle-lanes.pdf

1. Drivers understandably tend to assume that the cycle lane represents an
adequate amount of space for the cyclist, so position their vehicles according
to the lane markings rather than relative to the position of the cyclist.
2. Drivers see less need to take special care when overtaking if the vehicle they
are overtaking is in a separate lane.
3. The presence of the cycle lane on the opposite side of the road forces
oncoming vehicles nearer to the centre line. This reduces the space available
for overtaking vehicles to move to the right.

So really, my point of view would be the other way around: if they need to make the roads wider to have adequate cycle lanes, why not just leave the kerb lane as a wider than usual lane? The painting in of the white line to turn it into a cycle lane leads to closer passes. To overcome this effect, you have to make the cycle lane at least 2m wide.

tomasrojo

doozerie wrote: »

Unfortunately though, I can't see that happening, so we remain stuck in this demented half-way house where some of your journey from A to B is on cycle track, some of it on shared road, with both drivers and cyclists randomly making up their own rules of the road on the spur of the moment throughout and seeming to incur no penalty for doing so.

+1

doozerie

tomasrojo wrote: »

So really, my point of view would be the other way around: if they need to make the roads wider to have adequate cycle lanes, why not just leave the kerb lane as a wider than usual lane? The painting in of the white line to turn it into a cycle lane leads to closer passes. To overcome this effect, you have to make the cycle lane at least 2m wide.

I agree. There is one stretch of two-way road on my commute which had a cycle lane marked on each side some time back (the footpaths were already too narrow to eat into). The remaining road for motorists is barely wide enough for them to keep within the lines (not wide enough for buses or trucks so they have to drive with their wheels either just inside the cycle lane or just inside the oncoming lane). It makes no sense at all and as a cyclist I certainly do not feel any safer since the lanes were introduced.

BostonB

short circuit wrote: »

I never knew these roads before the lanes were put in .. so can't comment ... but they are nice to use and I am happy to have my own 2 or 3 feet or road .. would be even more pleasurable if parking on them was policed.

The one difference I see when I am cycling on these roads as opposed to roads with no cycle lanes marked is that the traffic passes a lot closer and there are more honks etc.

Also, one thing about these roads is that if the lanes were "marked" on after the road was built, then the older roads were probably wide enough to take the cycle lane + vehicular lane .. and hence didn't make much difference after the cycle lanes were put in.

In a majority of areas, I think the road would have to be widened to make it safer for cycles and cars ... which would beg the question, why not just mark the cycle lanes at the same time.

I think the grand canal is decent enough. Used to be that cars, especially at the junctions would squeeze two abreast whereas now its almost all single lane, so you have a clear run through at peak. Theres always someone parked on it in a couple of places, anytime I'm on it.

The cycle lanes in the Phoenix park are ok, decent surface compared to much of the road. But they don't integrate well with the roads. So anyone doing circuits doesn't use them, indeed most routes in the park require you get on/off them. Lot of pedestrian traffic too, but on a dark night, I think they ok.

Pretty much anywhere else they are useless, especially for commuters, as they are so poorly laid out they are impractical to use.

Civilian_Target

They just finished a26km cycle lane on my route to work here by Nice.

It's not perfect, but it's a pretty damn good effort. Sometimes you're just separated from cars or peds by a painted line, but in general there's a physical barrier. Priority is always clearly marked, although you're asked to yield to cars about each 1km on average. There's even a little set of traffic lights. And it's by the sea which is always nice.

Here's some shots, for you to compare with Dublin

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5499/img023nn.jpg
The start. It's just paint, but it's a good metre wide.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9161/img024nbh.jpg
After about 5km, you get to share with peds instead. The lamp-posts re-enforce the painted line.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3973/img025m.jpg
Strange palm tree slalom for about 500m

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9018/img026pc.jpg
Back to sharing with peds, but there aren't many here

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7581/img027w.jpg http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1232/img028n.jpg http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7188/img030h.jpg
Physically separated from everyone, with marked junctions

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5102/img031t.jpg
Strange contra-flow thing

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7843/img032j.jpg
The last 5km is always busy

nitrogen

Anytime I veer into them, here in London, I risk:

a) crashing into the front of a stupid driver sticking his nose out.
b) being squashed by a bus or a delightful white-van driver, who suddenly decided to ignore them.
c) riding into the back of parked cars.

I'll stick to using the road exactly how a scooter would use it.

ED E

Anyone have figures on how many regular cyclists there are in Ireland/Dublin? I'd be interested to know how much weight we have to throw around.

doozerie

The following links from the Dublin Cycling Campaign website don't necessarily answer the question fully but do contain some interesting figures for 2009:

Dublin commuters hopping on their bikes - RTE.ie News:

The Canal Cordon Count conducted by Dublin City Council found nearly 7,000 people using pedal cycles in 2009 between 7am and 10am.

Big rise in commuters using pedal power to beat traffic - Irish Independent:

Last year, as people took advantage of the new Dublin bike sharing scheme and the Cycle to Work tax incentive scheme, the number of cyclists soared by 12pc to more than 6,850. An increase of 74pc has been recorded over the past five years.

The number of people signed up for the Dublin bike scheme has risen from 2,000 in September to more than 25,000.

SubLuminal

cycle lanes? f**k them! Badly maintained, stupidly thought out - if I follow them, I'm trusting the route some imbecile has laid out for me, rather than keeping my wits about me and picking my own route. I'm pretty adept technically at controlling my bike, not that i'm jesus christ on a bike or anything, but I've good balance, I can hop up and down kerbs, etc - If I was a new commuter, middle aged woman or something, on a townie bike for the first time or whatever and I tried sticking to those cycle lanes, thinking "this is what cycling is like".. sheesh.. no wonder people think cycling is dangerous!

I THINK CYCLE LANES ARE A CONSPIRACY BY CAR DRIVERS TO KEEP NEW CYCLISTS OFF THE ROAD BY MAKING IT SO UNPLEASANT THEY GET THE BUS!

Maybe i'm crazy but.. if you consider the above point, their state of repair and the layout of a lot of them suddenly makes sense..

.. have they not thought of asking a cyclist to help design the lanes?

Doctor Bob

doozerie wrote: »

The following links from the Dublin Cycling Campaign website don't necessarily answer the question fully but do contain some interesting figures for 2009:

Dublin commuters hopping on their bikes - RTE.ie News:



Big rise in commuters using pedal power to beat traffic - Irish Independent:

To clarify- the 'nearly 7000' in the first story is the same as the 6850 in the second.

What those stats don't show is the number of people cycling in the city who don't cross the canal cordon between 7 am and 10 am- this would include almost all of the trips made on the Dublin Bikes. So the canal cordon count should be seen as the base figure for cycling rather than the final answer. There is, alas, a serious lack of info on the number of trips within the city- those living and working or living and going to school inside the canal ring.

(Not having a go at you, doozerie, just adding to your facts! As you say, those figures are just part of the story.)

blorg

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Anyone have figures on how many regular cyclists there are in Ireland/Dublin? I'd be interested to know how much weight we have to throw around.

Census results 1986-2006. Table 1 is "Persons, males and females at work aged 15 years and over, usually resident in the State, classified by means of travel to work at each Census since 1986." Cycling shows a steady decline but there is an uptick between 2002 and 2006. Driving a motor car is the dominant increase in terms of sheer numbers but "train/DART/Luas" shows a big % increase also.

Cycling utterly collapses in Tables 2 and 3 though (schoolchildren.)

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

Cycling utterly collapses in Tables 2 and 3 though (schoolchildren.)

I blame the parents.

doozerie

SubLuminal wrote: »

I THINK CYCLE LANES ARE A CONSPIRACY BY CAR DRIVERS TO KEEP NEW CYCLISTS OFF THE ROAD BY MAKING IT SO UNPLEASANT THEY GET THE BUS!

Maybe i'm crazy but.. if you consider the above point, their state of repair and the layout of a lot of them suddenly makes sense..

I do tend to believe that where there is a trade-off to be made between cyclist convenience and driver convenience, in terms of road planning, the decision is made to maximise convenience for motorists more often than not. I see these as bad decisions made for the wrong reasons though, rather than an outright conspiracy against cyclists.

If it were a conspiracy against cyclists then it would be a very bad one as given the huge increase in car usage during the last few years disgruntled cyclists have probably largely turned to using cars than using the bus so they basically have added to the congestion that all motorists face i.e. they've added to driver frustration rather than reduced it.

SubLuminal wrote:

.. have they not thought of asking a cyclist to help design the lanes?

I believe that the Dublin Cycling Campaign got themselves involved in Dublin cycle track decisions and design a few years ago. This would have been after the massive outcry over such abominations as the cycle track along the N11. I don't know whether they are still involved though, or whether they felt that their views were heard and considered.

tomasrojo

SubLuminal wrote: »

if I follow them, I'm trusting the route some imbecile has laid out for me

+1, by and large.

sumone

el tonto wrote: »

I blame the parents.

My son (who is 14) tried cycling to school but had to stop as the weight of the books was damaging his back. Now he's on Dublin Bus instead.:(

Lumen

sumone wrote: »

My son (who is 14) tried cycling to school but had to stop as the weight of the books was damaging his back. Now he's on Dublin Bus instead.:(

Panniers?

During an interview with Lumen Jnr's primary school for next year I asked where he could park his bike, and was told he wasn't allowed to bring his bike to school.

I have enrolled him in a different school.

Gavin

A rear carrier on the back could take the books easily. Course he'd probably get beaten up for having a carrier on his bike.

Doctor Bob

Lumen wrote: »

During an interview with Lumen Jnr's primary school for next year I asked where he could park his bike, and was told he wasn't allowed to bring his bike to school.

:eek:

Lumen wrote: »

I have enrolled him in a different school.

:cool:

ED E

Fair play Lumen.

sumone

Lumen wrote: »

Panniers?

Obvious solution but for a 14 year old NOT COOL:cool: and you can't argue cool with a 14 year old.

DualFrontDiscs

Gavin wrote: »

A rear carrier on the back could take the books easily. Course he'd probably get beaten up for having a carrier on his bike.

The boy needs this. Scroll halfway down to 'The Goat'!

The ultimate 'practical' bike. And my dream bike (at the moment).

Check out the spec in the 'sketch'. Who says you can't spend $550 on a set of handlebars?

DFD*

*Don'tForgetDreams

monument

sumone wrote: »

Obvious solution but for a 14 year old NOT COOL:cool: and you can't argue cool with a 14 year old.

Just strap a bag on to a rear-mounted carrier, as long as there is no laptop or easily breakable things in the bag it should be fine.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

Just strap a bag on to a rear-mounted carrier, as long as there is no laptop or easily breakable things in the bag it should be fine.

I did that for years. Quite acceptable for carrying books.

km991148

back on about the lanes,
I genuinely think there has just been simply a lack of thought, particularly about the speed a lot cyclists tend to travel.

The amount of down right dangerous places there are..
I know this has been covered a lot but the amount of times I have found myself at the end of a lane cursing to myself!..

I try and use them now and again on a new route to try and see if there is one decent one about, but no chance...