Dog Biting - Help!

Tester46

My friend (yes really my friend) has a dog which was rescued from a shelter. It's a four year old female collie/german shepherd cross.

The problem is the dog seems to have been badly treated before and is extremely nervous around people. While she is very good with my friend, she bites other people who visit the house. Up to now she has only bitten adults and they have not raised a problem (but have had to get shots after). Their big worry is that the dog could really hurt someone or maybe bite a child visiting the house - there are people in and out of the house daily.

They have already had a dog behavioralist to the house but her advice hasn't changed anything and the dog hasn't settled down or stopped biting. They now plan to give the dog back to the shelter, obviously explaining about the biting issue. Presumably the dog will end up in a cage for a few weeks and then be put down.

My question is, would it be kinder to have the dog put down now, saving her the few weeks in a cage at the shelter? If you think not, what else can be done, the dog's well-being being the primary factor here?

Sigma Force

Would be probably better to get a different dog trainer and get to classes.
One coming to the house is fine but unless the trainer can come regularly, regular training classes might be more of a help some trainers run individual classes.

It sounds like something that will need on going training. If she is in the Dub. area someone like Dog Training Ireland, anywhere that uses humae methods of training.

In the mean time perhaps keep the dog condfined to certain parts of the house, if needs be muzzle the dog if around people your friend knows the dog might bite. Now she knows the dog bites you can't take any risks around adults, the next person the dog bites might not be so forgiving.

I wouldn't say the dog is a lost cause, however the dog will need a lot of training and time and perhaps something like agility to build up confidence and keep the dogs brain active.

peasant

Tester46 wrote: »

My question is, would it be kinder to have the dog put down now, saving her the few weeks in a cage at the shelter? If you think not, what else can be done, the dog's well-being being the primary factor here?

Why not give it back to the shelter and let them give it to a home where there is less traffic and owners willing and able to handle the biting issues?

Strange interpretation of "well-being" you have there.

lrushe

peasant wrote: »

Why not give it back to the shelter and let them give it to a home where there is less traffic and owners willing and able to handle the biting issues?
QUOTE]

Although this is a nice idea in theory the reality is there are v.few people willing or qualified to rehome a dog with a bite history. As I see it and I don't mean to sound harsh but your friend has two choices, either find a new trainer with experience with agressive dogs and work with the dog or have the dog put to sleep. The dog is your friend's responsiblity and I for one could not sleep at night knowing I had rehomed a dog with a bite history who could potentially be a danger to someone else.

peasant

The dog is nervous and bites people who come to the house

- take the dog to a house where there are fewer visitors
- the dog will have less reason to be nervous and respond to training better
- with less traffic through the door it should be easier to keep the dog away from the visitors until it is fully trained
- with less visitors there should also be more time for the dog

A good rescue that is open and upfront about the issues and good in selecting potential owners should be able to deal with this.

Problem solved

EGAR

Am absolutely with peasant on this one. A good rescue assesses the dogs prior to rehoming and would be aware of any of those issues. The adopter is entitled to rescue backup after adoption as well. OP, feel free to PM me - I might be able to help.

lrushe

peasant wrote: »

The dog is nervous and bites people who come to the house

- take the dog to a house where there are fewer visitors
- the dog will have less reason to be nervous and respond to training better
- with less traffic through the door it should be easier to keep the dog away from the visitors until it is fully trained
- with less visitors there should also be more time for the dog

A good rescue that is open and upfront about the issues and good in selecting potential owners should be able to deal with this.

Problem solved

I think this is looking at things with rose tinted glasses, is the above possible? Of course its possible, what you are going to find more difficult is to find someone willing and qualified to do this, at a time when resuces are finding it hard to rehome friendly, well adjusted animals it is going to be v.hard to find the right fit for a dog like this. I would also be somewhat suspicious of someone wanting a GSD type with bite history, of course there are the genuine people but there is also people with less than good intentions out there.
This dog will need to be 'controlled' and managed to some degree for the rest of its life, the harsh reality is that this is an investment that the average person just wouldn't be willing to make

peasant

lrushe wrote: »

This dog will need to be 'controlled' and managed to some degree for the rest of its life, the harsh reality is that this is an investment that the average person just wouldn't be willing to make

Every dog needs to be controlled and managed to some degree, this particular dog just needs a bit more control.

In the right circumstances however this wouldn't be an issue, never mind an "investment".
In a calm houshold with few visitors this dog should be easily trainable to forget about its nervousness.

lrushe

peasant wrote: »

In a calm houshold with few visitors this dog should be easily trainable to forget about its nervousness.

I do genuinely hope this is true, this dog has already been failed by the shelter who homed her orignially by not assessing her or her new nome enough to know that a busy household wasn't for her, lets hope for the sake of her next owners that this mistake is not made again.

morganafay

Well first of all, she can't risk the dog biting more people. She should keep the dog out of the way if there are alot of people. It's just nervous, more than aggressive.

But it does need more socialisation, but in a calm atmosphere with one person at a time (and muzzled just in case, with a proper fiting muzzle). Well that would be my idea. But a professional trainer, or classes would be good. Maybe group classes after a while, so the dog can be socialised more.

Tester46

I think the problem might be solved now because I think I can take the dog myself. I live in the country and have lots of space.

I love dogs (and usually vice versa). This dog's propensity to bite doesn't worry me or my wife, and our house is quiet. The cat will be pi**ed off, but he'll get over it I'm sure.

My problem is that even though I love dogs, I have never owned one. When this dog arrives at my house, what do I do? What I mean is, I don't want the dog to run away and I want it to have time to get used to us and the house and the area. We'll both be out at work during the day, but I can nip home at lunchtime. How long should I keep the dog in the house to get used to things before I let her go out? What about going to the toilet? There are farm animals around the area, so how would I get her used to staying near the house and not going after local animals?

I really think she deserves a second chance with us. Regardless of Peasant's comment above, sending this dog to the shelter or putting her down would not be my choice at all. This is still my friend's dog, only now I can take her instead of the shelter.

Can anyone give me some good advice on how to start off owning and looking after this dog? I'm sure everything will be grand once she settles in and gets used to us and realises she can sleep in front of the fire

barbiegirl

Your in the country so first things first, a run or safe area for the dog when you are not there. In fact the run might even help the dog fit in and have a place it feels safe. A walk in the morning, a quick run about at lunch and a good walk in the evening. Plenty of attention from you and your wife. Have little treats in your pocket all the time, and reward all good behaviour, ignore non threatening bad behaviour and correct immediately threatening behaviour. You and your wife take up the leadership position, give an air of confidence around dog at all times, yopu expect good behaviour and will not take anything else. Slowly integrate other people, very slowly. With love and work you'll have a lovely dog.
Best of luck

Tester46

barbiegirl wrote: »

Your in the country so first things first, a run or safe area for the dog when you are not there. In fact the run might even help the dog fit in and have a place it feels safe. A walk in the morning, a quick run about at lunch and a good walk in the evening. Plenty of attention from you and your wife. Have little treats in your pocket all the time, and reward all good behaviour, ignore non threatening bad behaviour and correct immediately threatening behaviour. You and your wife take up the leadership position, give an air of confidence around dog at all times, yopu expect good behaviour and will not take anything else. Slowly integrate other people, very slowly. With love and work you'll have a lovely dog.
Best of luck

Good info, thanks! This is the kind of practical information I need. Keep it coming people, and thanks!

madrabui

I'm just giving advice from my experience. It sounds to be that the dog wasn't socialised at all and not given enough excercise. I've basically taken over my parents collie mix. In a matter of a few months since he's been given at least one long walk a day (including swimming and a bit of play), his behaviour has changed. Also his type of breed can only be left alone for a few hours. I still wouldn't trust him an inch, but he appears to be a much happier dog.

peasant

Tester46 wrote: »

What I mean is, I don't want the dog to run away and I want it to have time to get used to us and the house and the area. We'll both be out at work during the day, but I can nip home at lunchtime. How long should I keep the dog in the house to get used to things before I let her go out? What about going to the toilet? There are farm animals around the area, so how would I get her used to staying near the house and not going after local animals?

Good on you for wanting to take the dog yourself !

As to your question ...the only way to keep a dog from wandering/running away is a secure fence or keeping it on a lead when outside the fence.

In a rural setting with other animals running around no dog can be trusted to stay near the house ...even dogs you have had for years and that have good recall. A newcomer could be gone the second you let them out the door.

So, until you can fence in an area for her, do not let her out unless on the lead.

Tester46

peasant wrote: »

So, until you can fence in an area for her, do not let her out unless on the lead.

I am planning to build a run for her. Current plan is to use 8ft wooden posts sunk into concrete bases and run chain link fence around it with strengthening wire top and bottom. I'll keep her kennel at the end of the run. I reckon there's at least one hard weekend's work to build it.

How big should the run be (length, width and height)?

The other option is to use Harris Fencing (you know the kind you see around building sites) - anyone know where I'd get those panels cheap and 2nd hand in the Cork region? Thanks

PaulB91

i may know where you can get cheap scaffolding planks/posts from near midleton

size depends on how long you'll leave the dog alone for and how much exercise you'll be giving and how much land you have and how much money. I have a "run" which is approx 25ft by 15ft at the mo, extening to 30ft by 13ft extra on the back - with a 10ft by 8ft shed and two large kennels (but i got four largish dogs ;o) ) - would also make sure the dog can't dig under the fence (what's the terrain you're building on?) and i'd say you'd need at least foot height - if not more if it's open top, again depends on the terrain - be carefull where you put the kennel/shelter as well as the can use this for jumping the fence, my box/lab used his kennel to get on the roof of the shed and over the 15ft wall - luckily the drop on the other side was only about 5ft

EGAR

Harris fencing isn't very secure. Chainlink fence is way better. Your main objective is to keep the dog from biting. At first, and until you know the dog and what it reacts negatively to, this can only be achieved by management, i.e. effective control over the dog at all times.

Once you have the dog sussed out then you can start with training.

As a rule of thumb, you will not know her true nature until she is with you for at least 6 weeks, some dogs even longer.

Also, as she came from a shelter - check the rehoming contract, many rescues insist that the dog is not to be handed to a third party without prior agreement.

And do not fall into the trap of *oh the poor dog, so many homes etc* - treat her like a dog, not a child.

Building trust takes a long time and patience.

I find with dogs prone to attack people the safest bet is to train them to a certain word which breaks the attack mode. The best for this is "down" - a down command breaks the tension as the dog is forced to focus on the command rather than the imminent attack. Repetetive training of this is essential.

Once this is properly trained and was taken in by the dog, slowly expose her to problem situations but make sure those are staged and in an controlled environment so that no injuries can occur.

Tester46

EGAR wrote: »

Harris fencing isn't very secure. Chainlink fence is way better.

I was thinking of something like this (look at the first photo).

Thanks for all your other advice about keeping this dog. If anyone else has some general advice too, I'd appreciate hearing it.

Thanks

EGAR

Feeding: 20% protein is more than enough for a non-working dog, so check the bags for protein content. Alot of behavioural/hyper behaviour is down to overfeeding with protein. My dogs climb the walls if I give more than 20% and they are quite active. Get a good quality dry food - it may be a bit dearer to buy but it will pay off in the long run.

Don't feed tinned food, it's usually very high in sugar, cleverly disguised as *colouring agent*.

pitbull_fanatic

Tester46 wrote: »

I think the problem might be solved now because I think I can take the dog myself. I live in the country and have lots of space.

I love dogs (and usually vice versa). This dog's propensity to bite doesn't worry me or my wife, and our house is quiet. The cat will be pi**ed off, but he'll get over it I'm sure.

My problem is that even though I love dogs, I have never owned one. When this dog arrives at my house, what do I do? What I mean is, I don't want the dog to run away and I want it to have time to get used to us and the house and the area. We'll both be out at work during the day, but I can nip home at lunchtime. How long should I keep the dog in the house to get used to things before I let her go out? What about going to the toilet? There are farm animals around the area, so how would I get her used to staying near the house and not going after local animals?

I really think she deserves a second chance with us. Regardless of Peasant's comment above, sending this dog to the shelter or putting her down would not be my choice at all. This is still my friend's dog, only now I can take her instead of the shelter.

Can anyone give me some good advice on how to start off owning and looking after this dog? I'm sure everything will be grand once she settles in and gets used to us and realises she can sleep in front of the fire

well first things first bring the dog for a two hour walk around your area before you bring him into your home. he needs to "migrate with his pack before he finds somewhere to sleep". introduce him room by room on a lead. dont let him have free roam of the house straight away. be firm but fair, calm, build your trust in him, dont nurture bad behaviour or nervous behaviour and dont be afraid to correct him if he does wrong. and most importantly enjoy your new best friend.

mollymascara

Tester46 wrote: »

I was thinking of something like this (look at the first photo).

Thanks for all your other advice about keeping this dog. If anyone else has some general advice too, I'd appreciate hearing it.

Thanks

I havent read through all of the posts on this thread, but Im glad to hear that the dog is at least going to get a chance.

In my experience of handling animals (im no expert, but have never been bitten in 10yrs), mostly dogs, both placid and aggressive, its best there is both respect and trust built on both sides, like any relationship.
I will give an example. Take a small child in a house with strangers entering. How do you think the child will react? Esp if one of those strangers walks right up to the child and starts hugging etc, I reckon the child would get very upset altogether, this big giant walking into their home, invading their personal space (and lets face it, we all get uncomfortable when our personal space is being invaded, dogs are no different).
Anywho, my point being that a dog is no different in these situations, esp one that has come from a background of possible cruelty. It will take the animal some time to get used to people coming and going. Let the animal come to the person, not the other way around. Until the dog has fully settled into its new home, and is fully comfortable with the people living their, IMO, I would take the animal out of the room if visitors are coming in, just until it gets the opportunity to become more socialised. A way to try to do is would be possibly bringing one person into the home, having them sit in the same room with the owner and the dog, and have them just ignore the dog, sit chat amongst yourselves, dont make any eye contact, give the animal time to come to you, let them have a sniff, all the while ignoring it. Maybe if the animal shows an interest by moving slighly closer and having a good sniff, I would then maybe suggest that after a couple of minutes maybe have the visitor address the dog by name, saying somthing like "hello _ _ _ _", in a nice calm tone, almost like how you would talk to a child, and say nothing else, see how the dog reacts to this, if good, get the visitor to say something else, and so on. Build on this slowly, over time, allow the animal time to get a bit of confidence around people, allow them to know that there is no harm meant to them, that it is a safe environment. I would definately say that children around the dog at this point would be a no no, as both are unpredictable. No matter what, always remember, never force people onto the animal, if it is a nervous one by nature there will be negative consequences.

A bit long winded but if you would like to know more just pm me k

Ps - Dog Whisperer Rules!!!!

The Sweeper

Tester46 wrote: »

The cat will be pissed off, but he'll get over it I'm sure.

Would you not make sure the dog isn't aggressive to cats, before introducing an animal to your household that could quite conceivably kill your cat if it gets a chance?

I know most people love dogs and consider cats a second-class pet, but seriously, is your existing pet not worthy of consideration? Or is the dog just more interesting? Let's hope the dog stays interesting and a nice puppy doesn't come along in a few years that the dog will have to "get over".

Tester46

The Sweeper wrote: »

Would you not make sure the dog isn't aggressive to cats, before introducing an animal to your household that could quite conceivably kill your cat if it gets a chance?

I know most people love dogs and consider cats a second-class pet, but seriously, is your existing pet not worthy of consideration? Or is the dog just more interesting? Let's hope the dog stays interesting and a nice puppy doesn't come along in a few years that the dog will have to "get over".

I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but there is no need to be so snide.

My cat is extremely well treated, is well loved and is very spoiled. Does that mean I can never have another animal in the house in case the cat gets annoyed? Of course not. The cat knows well what a good home she has and will always have the run of the house and will have the run of areas where the dog won't be allowed to go.

Your implication that the dog is getting preference because it is more "interesting" is, frankly, pathetic. If you had actually bothered to read this thread, you would know that I am taking this dog because she is effectively under a death sentence if I don't. Having said that, I am really looking forward to her coming and she'll have a lovely home with us in the country.

Really, some people... :rolleyes:

P.S. If anyone has any more advice for me I'd be very grateful to read it - thanks!

mollymascara

Chances are the cat will rule the roost, haha

A couple of walks a day should do the trick. To keep the animal occupied/stimulated when no one is around - those toys that you can buy and hide food in is always a good idea. Denta rasks for healthy teeth. Unless rolling in muck and stinking, wash maybe once a month. Vet chk, vaccination, worm and de-flea (but you probably are aware of these things aleady).

Think its awesome you are taking on the dog by the way

Tester46

mollymascara wrote: »

Chances are the cat will rule the roost, haha.

A couple of walks a day should do the trick. To keep the animal occupied/stimulated when no one is around - those toys that you can buy and hide food in is always a good idea. Denta rasks for healthy teeth. Unless rolling in muck and stinking, wash maybe once a month. Vet chk, vaccination, worm and de-flea (but you probably are aware of these things aleady).

Thanks for the info. Don't assume I know anything (I know the basics) and keep the info coming. Thanks to everyone.

The Sweeper

Tester46 wrote: »

If you had actually bothered to read this thread, you would know that I am taking this dog because she is effectively under a death sentence if I don't.

As your cat will be under a potential death sentence if the dog is aggressive to cats.

If you don't know whether the dog is aggressive to cats, you are effectively shunting your existing animal in favour of a new animal.

I have read the thread. You want to take on a dog that bites because you feel you have the time and environment to coax what you see as a needy, desperate animal, out of bad behaviour and into a loving home.

In the meantime, you have delivered an assessment that says, in your own words, your cat will be pissed off but he'll get over it. I hope that's all that happens. I hope the dog is not aggressive to cats. I hope that the dog doesn't chase and attack or kill your cat in front of you. I hope that your cat doesn't piss off and live with the neighbours two doors down because he feels so alienated by you introducing a new animal without due consideration of an existing animal. And I hope you have taken all of that into consideration before introducing a new animal.

On this thread, focusing entirely on the dog, you have been flippant of your existing animal, which is your pet cat. I am merely expressing exasperation at your seeming disregard of your existing animal. You haven't said you know for a fact that the dog is not cat aggressive, or that you've introduced them and they do or don't get along, or that you've even given a moments thought to it, other than your apparent feeling that the cat will get over it.

Tester46

The Sweeper wrote: »

As your cat will be under a potential death sentence if the dog is aggressive to cats.

If you don't know whether the dog is aggressive to cats, you are effectively shunting your existing animal in favour of a new animal.

I have read the thread. You want to take on a dog that bites because you feel you have the time and environment to coax what you see as a needy, desperate animal, out of bad behaviour and into a loving home.

In the meantime, you have delivered an assessment that says, in your own words, your cat will be pissed off but he'll get over it. I hope that's all that happens. I hope the dog is not aggressive to cats. I hope that the dog doesn't chase and attack or kill your cat in front of you. I hope that your cat doesn't piss off and live with the neighbours two doors down because he feels so alienated by you introducing a new animal without due consideration of an existing animal. And I hope you have taken all of that into consideration before introducing a new animal.

On this thread, focusing entirely on the dog, you have been flippant of your existing animal, which is your pet cat. I am merely expressing exasperation at your seeming disregard of your existing animal. You haven't said you know for a fact that the dog is not cat aggressive, or that you've introduced them and they do or don't get along, or that you've even given a moments thought to it, other than your apparent feeling that the cat will get over it.

You're right of course. This thread is about the dog. But as you are quoting me so exactly, you'll see I have made my assessment that "The cat will be pi**ed off, but he'll get over it I'm sure". Contrary to your view above, I have assessed the situation and come to a conclusion. Any other view on your part is merely arbitrary speculation.

There are other people here who are posting good practical information which I am finding very useful. Your negativity is not helping and I have no wish to see this thread degenerate.

Thank you.

perri winkles

I think the most important thing to remember is to give yourself time.

Give the dog time. She's been in and out of so many different places that she's bound to take a while to get settled. This could take a few months, given her nervous disposition. Don't get frustrated or upset or give up. It is going to be a long and hard journey for you both but you will get through it so don't lose faith in her. Or yourself! It can be done!

Like another poster mentioned I presume she's been looked over by a vet, spayed vaccinated microchipped?

Get into a routine with her, this will help her trust you and get used to her surroundings. Bring her for a walk at roughly the same time everyday, same with feeding etc. This will also calm her a bit.

If I think of anything else Ill let you know

pitbull_fanatic

The Sweeper wrote: »

As your cat will be under a potential death sentence if the dog is aggressive to cats.

If you don't know whether the dog is aggressive to cats, you are effectively shunting your existing animal in favour of a new animal.

I have read the thread. You want to take on a dog that bites because you feel you have the time and environment to coax what you see as a needy, desperate animal, out of bad behaviour and into a loving home.

In the meantime, you have delivered an assessment that says, in your own words, your cat will be pissed off but he'll get over it. I hope that's all that happens. I hope the dog is not aggressive to cats. I hope that the dog doesn't chase and attack or kill your cat in front of you. I hope that your cat doesn't piss off and live with the neighbours two doors down because he feels so alienated by you introducing a new animal without due consideration of an existing animal. And I hope you have taken all of that into consideration before introducing a new animal.

On this thread, focusing entirely on the dog, you have been flippant of your existing animal, which is your pet cat. I am merely expressing exasperation at your seeming disregard of your existing animal. You haven't said you know for a fact that the dog is not cat aggressive, or that you've introduced them and they do or don't get along, or that you've even given a moments thought to it, other than your apparent feeling that the cat will get over it.

awryt bai calm down!!! he's taking the dog on and giving him a chance. the dog bites probably because he wasnt taught not to. but with positive training and repitition he will stop biting. just like if he is agressive with cats make him NOT agressive with them. keep him on a lead next to the cat and any time he does something wrong give a tug to the side on the lead. do NOT pull BACK on the lead because he'll want to go for the cat more them. make him lie down in front of the cat with his back to the cat. once you start trusting him and the cat together the cat will more or less be the pack leader. seeing as she has full roam of the house and spoilt she sounds like a dominant cat so she will put him in his place fairly lively. dogs follow calm leaders and any cat is calmer than any of us!!

Graces7

OP; can we differentiate between biting and nipping, please?

If a dog wants to really bite, it will go to the bone.

A nip, even when it breaks the skin, is different.

A warning that too much is going on around for it to cope with.

Yes, it scares as it is meant to do. And should not happen.

Our rescued collie; we were told it had bitten someone. When we asked more, it emerged it was simply a nip at her heel which did just break the skin, and she has certainly never done even that to us.

It was at a time when she had no real owner/carer.

Bringing a rescue dog into a multi-dog house with children is a hard thing to do. Fair play indeed to you!

So many stressors for the dog.

Collie here hates our cats; period. So we ensure that they have their own space. It is easy to do with a little thought.

Cats stay safe.

Collie is eight now and her recovery from 5 years of abuse is amazing. We ask no more of her.

Just that she enjoys her ageing years now; so much affection from her.

She has never really "gelled" with our existing dog; they get on fine but eg would never curl up together.

It is as it is.

So we enjoy as it is. And do all we can. But know the limits of our animals.