Manchester United vs. FC Bayern München - Champions League Q/Final 2nd Leg

Bukman13

Pro. F wrote: »

to be fair when Nani came on we had already established a foothold in possession and a bit of dominance so he had a much easier job. If he had played from the start he probably would have ended up looking poor too.

Also Giggs didn't just drift in off his wing, he swapped with Park and moved in permanently for a lot of the game. I'm not saying that Giggs didn't play poorly, he did, just that Nani did have it easier when he came on.

Nani did have it easier when he came on I agree with you there. But before that there was still a distinct lack of width on the left hand side whether is was Giggs or Park, which congested the midfield.

Gary Neville got 10 crosses into the box to Evra's 5, so that in itself shows you that there was more width coming from the right.

keane2097

Boskowski wrote: »

Are Manchester past their prime and look like they have missed opportunities to line up good enough successors in order to continue their domination of English and European football?

Some of United's players are certainly past their prime.

Giggs, Scholes and Neville being the obvious ones.

Of those three Neville is third or fourth choice when everybody is fit, Nani looks to be developing into an adequate replacement for Giggs.

Scholes needs to be replaced, and I would expect him to be. If he isn't then we may well struggle, but then again we have Anderson and Hargreaves to come back from long-term injuries. Assuming we do then the United midfield will be relatively strong as I expect Anderson to develop into an excellent player.

Boskowski wrote: »

May there be a few quieter years coming up?

Only if players don't recover from injury and we fail to strengthen our CM, which is extremely unlikely.

SlickRic

keane2097 wrote: »

If poeple think losing two games 2-1 to top sides has suddenly pushed us off the cliff I'm at a loss as to what to say tbh.

while i think midfield is an issue for Utd moving forward, i essentially agree with you.

any hint of a slippery slope to mediocrity is hilarious.

keep going people by all means!

while Ferguson and Rooney are there, there's nothing to worry about in terms of competing at the higher end of things.

particularly Ferguson.

Bukman13

Irishcrx wrote: »

Actually I forgot about him, is he match fit? Big lad and lightning quick, might be a good option to spring in the last 30 mins if Macheda is lacking match fitness..

He didn't train today so I don't think he will be involved.

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

My point is that last week - before the Bayern game - United were looking like the mutt's nuts.

They've lost two tough, tight games and all of a sudden the heralds of doom come crawling out of the woodwork.

If United had drawn the last two games would people still be saying United are on the downslope?

No but it's all symptomatic. United lost those 2 games and it MIGHT cost them bigtime this season. You can look at those games in which they even won this year but weren't utterly convincing and see a decline from what might have been there last season. Nothing to do with doomed to anything, but if they aren't as strong as last year, they ARE in fact, in decline.

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

Are Manchester past their prime and look like they have missed opportunities to line up good enough successors in order to continue their domination of English and European football? May there be a few quieter years coming up?

Edit: And when I say 'quieter' I mean 'quieter' coming from domination. Meaning maybe just a few CL quarter finals finishes or so, maybe not winning the EPL. I don't mean quieter as in playin' with Blackburn for a Europa league spot.

I've been saying since last summer that this season would be a rebuilding one but that we'd still be in with a shout of winning a big trophy. We have a great defence (when you consider the depth of quality) and one world class striker with good back up and prospects across the attack. We are a decent solid side with the best manager in the world. I honestly believe we are one or two signings away from being as dominant as Barca. The question, for me, is should we incur more debt to make those signings or should we keep our net spend towards zero?

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

Nothing to do with doomed to anything, but if they aren't as strong as last year, they ARE in fact, in decline.

You can't call a disimprovement from one season to the next a "decline".

If we gradually get worse over a number of years we will be a team in decline - AC Milan would be an example of this.

United certainly are not a "team in decline" at the moment - arguments to the contrary are fairly ridiculous imo.

Bukman13

Pro. F wrote: »

I've been saying since last summer that this season would be a rebuilding one but that we'd still be in with a shout of winning a big trophy. We have a great defence (when you consider the depth of quality) and one world class striker with good back up and prospects across the attack. We are a decent solid side with the best manager in the world. I honestly believe we are one or two signings away from being as dominant as Barca. The question, for me, is should we incur more debt to make those signings or should we keep our net spend towards zero?

Excatly, before this season most people said we were a team in transition and expected us to struggle in both the League and Champo League.

And when you consider the amount of injuries we've had, I would almost say the team have exceeded expectations this season.

Spud83

Ush1 wrote: »

No but it's all symptomatic. United lost those 2 games and it MIGHT cost them bigtime this season. You can look at those games in which they even won this year but weren't utterly convincing and see a decline from what might have been there last season. Nothing to do with doomed to anything, but if they aren't as strong as last year, they ARE in fact, in decline.

Not really look at the amount of games we won last year 1-0, or kept a clean sheet in. We had 24 clean sheets last year, only 15 this year. In terms of the league that has been the difference between this year and last, and that has largely been down to injuries to O'Shea, Brown, Rio, Vidic, Evans, and VDS. Even with that we are still in a position to win the league.

As for the CL, well lets wait until we are knocked out before saying we have under performed in that, even last year it took a wonder goal and a good defensive performance in Portugal to get past Porto.

So saying we are in decline is certainly not a fact, it is an opinion, and it is still wrong.

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

You can't call a disimprovement from one season to the next a "decline".

If we gradually get worse over a number of years we will be a team in decline - AC Milan would be an example of this.

United certainly are not a "team in decline" at the moment - arguments to the contrary are fairly ridiculous imo.

Well what do you mean? You are either getting better, the same, or not as good? If the latter of the 3, which many would agree in Man. Uniteds case, they are in decline. Doesn't matter if it's over 1 season or many.

It's really the old addage of complancency tbh.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

Well what do you mean? You are either getting better, the same, or not as good? If the latter of the 3, which many would agree in Man. Uniteds case, they are in decline. Doesn't matter if it's over 1 season or many.

It's really the old addage of complancency tbh.

You can only judge decline over a long time period like looking at a 5 year period.

Saying they're in decline compared to last season when this current season hasn't even ended and when the team is challenging still for the CL and Prem is idiot-level reasoning to be honest.

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

Not really look at the amount of games we won last year 1-0, or kept a clean sheet in. We had 24 clean sheets last year, only 15 this year. In terms of the league that has been the difference between this year and last, and that has largely been down to injuries to O'Shea, Brown, Rio, Vidic, Evans, and VDS. Even with that we are still in a position to win the league.

As for the CL, well lets wait until we are knocked out before saying we have under performed in that, even last year it took a wonder goal and a good defensive performance in Portugal to get past Porto.

So saying we are in decline is certainly not a fact, it is an opinion, and it is still wrong.

A wonder goal that may not be there this year.
I never said it was a fact, but if they got knocked out of either the CL or don't win the PL, they will be in decline and all these questions will be asked again. I'm not even saying I agree anyway, I'm saying what the op was saying, isn't that extreme at all.

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

You are either getting better, the same, or not as good? If the latter of the 3, which many would agree in Man. Uniteds case, they are in decline. Doesn't matter if it's over 1 season or many.

What you're basically trying to argue is the following:

one datapoint = a trend

What reality says is the following:

one datapoint != a trend

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

You can only judge decline over a long time period like looking at a 5 year period.

Saying they're in decline compared to last season when this current season hasn't even ended and when the team is challenging still for the CL and Prem is idiot-level reasoning to be honest.

Well it's not really. Do you think United are as good as last season? If someone was to answer no, then they think they have declined.

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

Well what do you mean? You are either getting better, the same, or not as good? If the latter of the 3, which many would agree in Man. Uniteds case, they are in decline. Doesn't matter if it's over 1 season or many.

It's really the old addage of complancency tbh.

dude you were sort of raising a reasonable question but you're getting way off the mark now. You can't tell whether a team is in decline based on one season, especially not a season where, at the very least, the team will have gotten close to the previous seasons achievements.

And there is no need to worry about Ferguson ever being complacent. That should be obvious to anybody who knows even the slightest bit about the man.

Spud83

Ush1 wrote: »

A wonder goal that may not be there this year.

A wonder goal that may not be needed this year.

Ush1 wrote: »

I never said it was a fact,

Really?

Ush1 wrote: »

No but it's all symptomatic. United lost those 2 games and it MIGHT cost them bigtime this season. You can look at those games in which they even won this year but weren't utterly convincing and see a decline from what might have been there last season. Nothing to do with doomed to anything, but if they aren't as strong as last year, they ARE in fact, in decline.

Ush1 wrote: »

but if they got knocked out of either the CL or don't win the PL, they will be in decline and all these questions will be asked again. I'm not even saying I agree anyway, I'm saying what the op was saying, isn't that extreme at all.

Not winning the CL, or the Premiership will not mean we are in decline.

Not winning the premiership could just mean that somebody performed better than us this year then we performed last year? Or it could just mean that circumstances out of our control like injuries etc had a negative effect on our season. It does not indicate a decline in the ability of the team.

Also not winning the CL would not be a decline to me anyway, especially as we didn't win it last year. It is a cup competition, and by their very nature you need a bit of luck to win them. We might just not get the luck, or we might not just perform on the night. However not performing on one night again does not mean a decline.

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

What you're basically trying to argue is the following:

one datapoint = a trend

What reality says is the following:

one datapoint != a trend

No I'm not saying that. If you actually re-read what the op said:

"I'm talking about "lack of quality" with regards to their own very high standards)"

At the level the club aspires to be at, you can only have so many off days, CL and PL and whatever else cups. So you can only afford so many datapoints at this level.

The op was only suggesting it, which is fine, who the hell said it was ever a fact?

Spud83

Ush1 wrote: »

The op was only suggesting it, which is fine, who the hell said it was ever a fact?

You did.

SlickRic

Utd will beat Bayern by 2 clear goals tomorrow, a giant step will be made towards another CL final (bastards ), and you'll be wondering what you've been talking about with this 'decline' stuff.

Ush1

Pro. F wrote: »

dude you were sort of raising a reasonable question but you're getting way off the mark now. You can't tell whether a team is in decline based on one season, especially not a season where, at the very least, the team will have gotten close to the previous seasons achievements.

And there is no need to worry about Ferguson ever being complacent. That should be obvious to anybody who knows even the slightest bit about the man.

But that's my point. I'm not saying it's so but some people are raising the question. If they get close to what they achieved last year that'll be good for them, but at the level they aspire to be at it is fine lines to what makes a season a failure or a triumph. I'm not personally saying United are in decline but I can see why someone might suggest it.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

Well it's not really. Do you think United are as good as last season? If someone was to answer no, then they think they have declined.

I'll wait till the end of the season to answer that, at the very least.

Even if you answer no it still doesn't point to a decline. There will always be slight fluctuations in a team's fortunes over a number of years, saying it points to an overall decline is looking it in the most critical, exaggerated and pessimistic way possible. If they fail to win the title for say three years and fail to reach the later stage s of the CL, then you might be able to say they're in decline. According to your logic, United would be in decline every year they haven't won the title since 1993. Which is pretty stupid and has been proven to be incorrect by what has happened over the years.

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

A wonder goal that may not be needed this year.



Really?





Not winning the CL, or the Premiership will not mean we are in decline.

Not winning the premiership could just mean that somebody performed better than us this year then we performed last year? Or it could just mean that circumstances out of our control like injuries etc had a negative effect on our season. It does not indicate a decline in the ability of the team.

Also not winning the CL would not be a decline to me anyway, especially as we didn't win it last year. It is a cup competition, and by their very nature you need a bit of luck to win them. We might just not get the luck, or we might not just perform on the night. However not performing on one night again does not mean a decline.

Read that quote that you have in bold to yourself and tell me it isn't a fact. I said IF they aren't as strong, they are in decline, simply by definition. Where did I say they aren't as strong as last year for a fact?

So what would indicate a decline in the ability then?? Finishing third in the PL? Extremely subjective and realistically for a Man. United fan, you wouldn't want to be arguing these points at that stage.

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

You did.

Nope I sure did not.:)

Spud83

Alright I missed the IF they aren't as strong bit. Apologies.

Is your definition of not as strong based solely on the trophies they win?

The Muppet

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

Alright I missed the IF they aren't as strong bit. Apologies.

Is your definition of not as strong based solely on the trophies they win?

Nope, but the op had a mixure of reasons why he thinks it may be so.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

it's brilliant.

us Liverpool fans are fickle at the best of times.

but i tell you, some of the reactions in here over the course of the season have been sensationally knee-jerk.

Spud83

Ush1 wrote: »

So what would indicate a decline in the ability then?? Finishing third in the PL? Extremely subjective and realistically for a Man. United fan, you wouldn't want to be arguing these points at that stage.

Exactly it would be a subjection opinionated view. Basing it purely on what they win from this season to the previous season is wrong. I would base it on what I have watched over the last two seasons, and the respective circumstances of both those seasons.

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

Exactly it would be a subjection opinionated view. Basing it purely on what they win from this season to the previous season is wrong. I would base it on what I have watched over the last two seasons, and the respective circumstances of both those seasons.

I agree. Take all those things into consideration but I don't think it's too extreme for someone to notice a difference with United last season and this one and think they are missing something.

JimsAlterEgo

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

you forgot about Scholes and Neville and moan about getting rid of Tevez and Ronaldo

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

But that's my point. I'm not saying it's so but some people are raising the question. If they get close to what they achieved last year that'll be good for them, but at the level they aspire to be at it is fine lines to what makes a season a failure or a triumph. I'm not personally saying United are in decline but I can see why someone might suggest it.

First of all, you can say that other people are asking the question and raising the point but you are the one who is arguing it now. So lets just debate what you are saying.

The simple fact is, that if a team are finishing within the same group of two or three league places every year and getting to the quarters/semis/final of the cup competition and they are winning these competitions some years, losing them others then that team is not in decline. If the team wins one year, fails the next and wins the year after, then that is not a decline - it is neutral. Talk of decline based on one season's very slightly different final standings (the fine lines between success and failure that you mention) is ilogical and shows a lack of understanding of mathematics. That type of talk is common in football - probably because of a lack of education - but it is simply inaccurate.

Mr.Nice Guy

Scholes surely isn't going to feature in this is he? He's played a huge amount of games but with that being said I'd worry without him in there.

Spud83

Ush1 wrote: »

I agree. Take all those things into consideration but I don't think it's too extreme for someone to notice a difference with United last season and this one and think they are missing something.

The only thing that has gone missing between this season and last seasons. Is fit defenders, a fit goalkeeper, some step overs, and a rocket of a shot from outside the box.

Now the steps overs have been replaced by a more natural/traditional winger. Who is more effective in the traditional wingers role i.e getting to the byline, putting dangerous crosses in, and doing a bit of defending.

His goals have been replaced by Rooneys goals. The might not have been spectacular in terms of being rockets from outside the box, but they have been better team goals.

Our central midfield has been the same for the last two years. We didn't have Hargreaves last year, we don't this year. Scholes "legs", or energy hasn't changed since last year. Go back to last year and the same complaints can be found about him.

Giggs was really good at the start of the season better than at any stage last season, he hasn't kept it going into the new year though, on the flip side Nani is greatly improved from last season and is making a more valuable contribution.

The "flair" in attack has been replaced by efficiency in attack, and a more team oriented approach.

Hargreaves is in the same position as last year even though he might actually play before the end of this season.

Neville as another old guard has had to play a lot than expected due to O'Shea and Brown being out.

I think I covered all the OP's points there. Manchester United is not in decline.

UnitedIrishman

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

Where will the goals come from?

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

it's brilliant.

us Liverpool fans are fickle at the best of times.

but i tell you, some of the reactions in here over the course of the season have been sensationally knee-jerk.

I have been saying it for quite some time, the vast majority of United fans embarrass me.

Boskowski

Cool. Then Bayern must have improved or else they caught ManU on an off-day. Or maybe a bit of both. Hope they can do it again tomorrow.

Boskowski

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

That made me smile

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it sack Fergie sell Giggs time again?

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Where will the goals come from?

Won't somebody please think of the CHILDREN?!



sorry i couldn't help it

The Muppet

Boskowski wrote: »

Cool. Then Bayern must have improved or else they caught ManU on an off-day. Or maybe a bit of both. Hope they can do it again tomorrow.

Deep down in your heart you know that's just not going to happen, don't you?


It'll be very interesting in here if United ever go on a bad run of results, (longer than 2 matches) , we'll have to put the samaratins on stand by.

Ush1

Pro. F wrote: »

First of all, you can say that other people are asking the question and raising the point but you are the one who is arguing it now. So lets just debate what you are saying.

The simple fact is, that if a team are finishing within the same group of two or three league places every year and getting to the quarters/semis/final of the cup competition and they are winning these competitions some years, losing them others then that team is not in decline. If the team wins one year, fails the next and wins the year after, then that is not a decline - it is neutral. Talk of decline based on one season's very slightly different final standings (the fine lines between success and failure that you mention) is ilogical and shows a lack of understanding of mathematics. That type of talk is common in football - probably because of a lack of education - but it is simply inaccurate.

Yes but it's not only common talk in football, how many managers lose their jobs over it? Over and over again you see it happen. Not that that's gonna happen to Taggart, but look at many other clubs.

flahavaj

Perish the thought that some of the modern spoiled United fans have to live through the pre-Fergie years!

Ush1

Spud83 wrote: »

The only thing that has gone missing between this season and last seasons. Is fit defenders, a fit goalkeeper, some step overs, and a rocket of a shot from outside the box.

Now the steps overs have been replaced by a more natural/traditional winger. Who is more effective in the traditional wingers role i.e getting to the byline, putting dangerous crosses in, and doing a bit of defending.

His goals have been replaced by Rooneys goals. The might not have been spectacular in terms of being rockets from outside the box, but they have been better team goals.

Our central midfield has been the same for the last two years. We didn't have Hargreaves last year, we don't this year. Scholes "legs", or energy hasn't changed since last year. Go back to last year and the same complaints can be found about him.

Giggs was really good at the start of the season better than at any stage last season, he hasn't kept it going into the new year though, on the flip side Nani is greatly improved from last season and is making a more valuable contribution.

The "flair" in attack has been replaced by efficiency in attack, and a more team oriented approach.

Hargreaves is in the same position as last year even though he might actually play before the end of this season.

Neville as another old guard has had to play a lot than expected due to O'Shea and Brown being out.

I think I covered all the OP's points there. Manchester United is not in decline.

That a fact?:pac:

Ush1

Funny people mentioning Liverpool and Man. United fans et al.... When it was actually a Bayern fan who suggested something, and a Lyon fan taking interest. Ironic people assume someone suggesting possible negativity towards the club is actually a fan.

The Muppet

flahavaj wrote: »

I have been saying it for quite some time, the vast majority of United fans embarrass me.

I wouldn't go as far as to say the vast majority but we certainly have our fair share of fair weather friends.

When you see a fan cursing our manager for not having made a substitution by the 60th minute of a game you'd have to aks questions of that fan.

keane2097

flahavaj wrote: »

I have been saying it for quite some time, the vast majority of United fans embarrass me.

Boskowski is a Bayern fan and Ush1 has stated onthread that he hates United.

Everybody else has been arguing the same point of view as Slickric, Spud83 and myself.

Nice try though

Chucky the tree

Boskowski wrote: »

I think I said that. But I didn't mean that they were fooling the football world.

What I meant was that Manu seems on a bit of a slope. And now that I think about it...

- Ronaldo has not been replaced adequately.
- Some nasty long term injuries. (e.g. Hargeaves was 25 mill out the window effectively)
- A good few players are still great players but age-wise def'ny on the way out. Their (supposed) replacements don't seem to have the same quality.
- Overall the team seems to live of experience rather than quality (of course such a statement must be put into perspective - I'm talking about "lack of quality" with regards to their own very high standards)
- No flair. It has become a boring old Manchester United. No Cantona, no Beckham, no Ronaldo. No 'wow' factor.

If nothing happens Manchester may not be able to retain their dominant position in Europe and even in England and this just may be the start of it.

Now some of what I say here may seem a bit superficial but thats just the impression I'm getting.

I'm not sure why everyone was so critical of Boskowskis post, he pretty much nails it with this part. I don't think there in decline but I do think it's an important summer for them. Neville, Giggs and Scholes aren't getting any younger and Anderson and Nani are far to inconsistent to be counted on for a full season. If Rooney misses a few games it's a huge blow as they don't have adequate cover. There only a few players short of being in an ideal spot but they do need to be made. If United didn't make any major signing in the summer I'd be very worried if I was a United fan.

flahavaj

Ush1 wrote: »

That a fact?:pac:

Poor tbh. Read some of Boggles' latest stuff in the Liverpool thread if you want to do this kinda thing properly. Cack handed, obvious and boring stuff overall.

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

Poor tbh. Read some of Boggles' latest stuff in the Liverpool thread if you want to do this kinda thing properly. Cack handed, obvious and boring stuff overall.

It was a joke tbh. I'm not looking for a rise. Sorry if you found it "boring".

flahavaj

keane2097 wrote: »

Boskowski is a Bayern fan and Ush1 has stated onthread that he hates United.

Everybody else has been arguing the same point of view as Slickric, Spud83 and myself.

Nice try though

More a general comment in response to what Slick said than based on this thread specifically. I think you and I are in agreement for once in this particular thread.:pac:

Ush1

flahavaj wrote: »

More a general comment in response to what Slick said than based on this thread specifically. I think you and I are in agreement for once in this particular thread.:pac:

What he said was also off the mark so you both ended up being way off.