Manchester United vs. FC Bayern München - Champions League Q/Final 2nd Leg

flahavaj

Chances of JOSH starting tomorrow lads?

UnitedIrishman

The Muppet wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as to say the vast majority but we certainly have our fair share of fair weather friends.

When you see a fan cursing our manager for not having made a substitution by the 60th minute of a game you'd have to aks questions of that fan.

Don't think there's many that are all that bad.

When you look around at any group of fans, be they season ticket holders or forum users, if their side loses then they generally have a gripe about it whether its the formation or who was on the pitch or the players performances. It's football.

It's kneejerk stuff like "Hargreaves should be released" or "Berbatov should be sold" that's the worst of it. But looking at the United thread, most have defended Berbatov. So it's not all doom and gloom.

Spud83

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'm not sure why everyone was so critical of Boskowskis post, he pretty much nails it with this part. I don't think there in decline but I do think it's an important summer for them. Neville, Giggs and Scholes aren't getting any younger and Anderson and Nani are far to inconsistent to be counted on for a full season. If Rooney misses a few games it's a huge blow as they don't have adequate cover. There only a few players short of being in an ideal spot but they do need to be made. If United didn't make any major signing in the summer I'd be very worried if I was a United fan.

But the same could be said of every side. Every team should be looking to improve year after year, every team has areas they can improve in, look at Barca last year, won everything they could, pretty much everyone agreeing that they were a perfect side but they still went out and tried to improve (without agruing if Ibra is an actual improvement).

People said the same thing last year, especially when Ronaldo was sold, If they don't spend the money, and didn't make a major signing that United fans should be worried.

Well we have been going alright this season without spending all the Ronaldo or making a major signing.

The same thing will be said every year, because everybody can't wait for the decline of Man United.

SlickRic

ah f*ck, not JOS.

utd's 'one-man squad depth' is back then.

flahavaj

The Muppet wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as to say the vast majority but we certainly have our fair share of fair weather friends.

When you see a fan cursing our manager for not having made a substitution by the 60th minute of a game you'd have to aks questions of that fan.

Fair weather is a little harsh.

Spoiled by success I would say, as I said living through the pre-Fergie years gives you some overall perspective when you lose a game or two or *shock-horror* fail to win everything in sight.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

ah f*ck, not JOS.

utd's 'one-man squad depth' is back then.

Not a fan of GOD Slick?:pac:

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes but it's not only common talk in football, how many managers lose their jobs over it? Over and over again you see it happen. Not that that's gonna happen to Taggart, but look at many other clubs.

Yes I'm perfectly willing to believe that lots of managers lose their jobs based on idiotic reasoning of people who read trends where none are visible. That doesn't make the argument any more sound.

Spud83

SlickRic wrote: »

ah f*ck, not JOS.

utd's 'one-man squad depth' is back then.

Back training probably too early to start tomorrow but he could make the bench.

He gives us so many options its crazy. Possibility to give Evra a rest (not tomorrow obviously), giving us a much more solid option at right back, some experienced center back cover, and although people may laugh at this a bit of extra goal threat from set pieces.

Ush1

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes I'm perfectly willing to believe that lots of managers lose their jobs based on idiotic reasoning of people who read trends where none are visible. That doesn't make the argument any more sound.

Well it illustrates what some people in football define as fine lines, being in decline as oppose to being not in decline, etc..

flahavaj

Spud83 wrote: »

Back training probably too early to start tomorrow but he could make the bench.

He gives us so many options its crazy. Possibility to give Evra a rest (not tomorrow obviously), giving us a much more solid option at right back, some experienced center back cover, and although people may laugh at this a bit of extra goal threat from set pieces.

Play him up front tbh. He's always been more of a big game goalscorer than a regular one. Saves 'em for the big occasions.

Spud83

flahavaj wrote: »

Play him up front tbh. He's always been more of a big game goalscorer than a regular one. Saves 'em for the big occasions.

If he is on the bench with ten minutes to go and we need a goal thats exactly where he will go.

flahavaj

Spud83 wrote: »

If he is on the bench with ten minutes to go and we need a goal thats exactly where he will go.

F*ck it start him. He's that good.

SlickRic

flahavaj wrote: »

Not a fan of GOD Slick?:pac:

if he was ours, i'd adore him.

one of my favourite moments of his was actually the year after he scored the winner against Liverpool (that JOS winner was one of the most painful we've had in recent memory against your lot), when Ferguson brought him on in the 90th minute, i'm pretty sure just to take the p*ss after the previous year.

as Spud said, the options he can give are just ludicrous.

i'd be surprised if he was anywhere other than on the bench tomorrow.

Pro. F

Bukman13 wrote: »

Nani did have it easier when he came on I agree with you there. But before that there was still a distinct lack of width on the left hand side whether is was Giggs or Park, which congested the midfield.

Gary Neville got 10 crosses into the box to Evra's 5, so that in itself shows you that there was more width coming from the right.

But Neville is far more pro-active in his decision of when to cross. Evra tends to run more with the ball.

I'm not saying Giggs played well, just that lack of width wasn't something that concerned me about his performance.

The Muppet

flahavaj wrote: »

F*ck it start him. He's that good.

Start him in Goals to make it interesting.

UnitedIrishman

We won't need a sub keeper on the bench either if JOS is back. Actually the rest of the subs might aswell take the night off - he's got this one covered..

Bukman13

flahavaj wrote: »

Play him up front tbh. He's always been more of a big game goalscorer than a regular one. Saves 'em for the big occasions.

Spud83 wrote: »

If he is on the bench with ten minutes to go and we need a goal thats exactly where he will go.

Just play him as fly-goalie.

That way we can have 3 in centre midfield and also play 2 up front. Best of both worlds .

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

if he was ours, i'd adore him.

one of my favourite moments of his was actually the year after he scored the winner against Liverpool (that JOS winner was one of the most painful we've had in recent memory against your lot), when Ferguson brought him on in the 90th minute, i'm pretty sure just to take the p*ss after the previous year.

as Spud said, the options he can give are just ludicrous.

i'd be surprised if he was anywhere other than on the bench tomorrow.

My favourite memory is his chipped goal against Arsenal a few years back, possibly at Highbury, to seal a 4-2 win. Hie reaction was priceless, half shocked that he'd actually tried it, not to mind pulled it off and half just pure joy that he'd scored. Didn't know what to do with himself then.

What I love about JOSH s you get the impression every single time he pulls on the shirt he's actually delighted to be doing so, like a big kid fulfilling a dream, and has to pinch himslef to see if its actually true. That and the fact that he's a Waterford man make him my favourite United player of all time, legit.

Spud83

flahavaj wrote: »

My favourite memory is his chipped goal against Arsenal a few years back, possibly at Highbury, to seal a 4-2 win. Hie reaction was priceless, half shocked that he'd actually tried it, not to mind pulled it off and half just pure joy that he'd scored.

Loved that goal, but the Liverpool one for its importance makes it better for me, especially with the level indifference he had been treated with by some fans.

Not only was it a massive victory against the Pool, but it was also massive in terms of the league. I remember sitting there going John O'Shea just won us the league.

CR 7

flahavaj wrote: »

My favourite memory is his chipped goal against Arsenal a few years back, possibly at Highbury, to seal a 4-2 win. Hie reaction was priceless, half shocked that he'd actually tried it, not to mind pulled it off and half just pure joy that he'd scored. Didn't know what to do with himself then.

What I love about JOSH s you get the impression every single time he pulls on the shirt he's actually delighted to be doing so, like a big kid fulfilling a dream, and has to pinch himslef to see if its actually true. That and the fact that he's a Waterford man make him my favourite United player of all time, legit.

Le King

I love everything about O'Shea expect the fact he was unfortunately born in Waterford. He could of been born in a proper Hurling county like Tipp....:D


Valencia on the right, Nani the left, CM's pick themselves really as do the back four and BErba up front. Not confident at all about this.

flahavaj

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Left the f*cker for dead. You have no idea how proud that made me.

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

Well it illustrates what some people in football define as fine lines, being in decline as oppose to being not in decline, etc..

So what? It really isn't important if some people use faulty logic and poor maths to try and muddle their way to an understanding of the situation. If they read this thread they might understand where they're going wrong.

UnitedIrishman

Spud83 wrote: »

Loved that goal, but the Liverpool one for its importance makes it better for me, especially with the level indifference he had been treated with by some fans.

Not only was it a massive victory against the Pool, but it was also massive in terms of the league. I remember sitting there going John O'Shea just won us the league.

That was just one of those moments when you knew - they've done it.

I remember him scoring one of massive importance against Everton aswell to keep us top, think it was the season after.

For a man villified by so many for so long, he's a credit to hard work and a genuine love for the club. Can't wait 'til he's back in the starting 11.

Boskowski

The Muppet wrote: »

Deep down in your heart you know that's just not going to happen, don't you?

I gonna be honest with you.

Bayern is trying desperately to close the gap between themselves and Europe's top clubs. Last years defeat to Barca hurt. One can lose to Barca no problem, but it was the way it happened. It hurt.
Bayern has improved from last year but are they up there with the last four in Europe? Have they the potential to reach the final? I don't know. But the answer is more likely 'No' than 'Yes'.

Now we're talking quarter finals and those kind of ties will show what progress was made or not.

Manchester left an impression of vulnerability in Munich and it gave the players and supporters believe that reaching the next round is possible. I honestly believe Bayern can advance here and has more than an outsider chance at this stage. I think they rattled Utd a bit and while Utd didn't play well neither did Bayner show their full potential.

But yet I can't help but being worried Utd may find a second gear to which Bayern may have no answer to. After all this is the team who's been in 4 consecutive semi-finals, the winners of 2008 and last years finalists.

I'm hoping and believing but if I had to put my house on it I guess I'd go with Utd.

Thats how I feel about it.

Ush1

Pro. F wrote: »

So what? It really isn't important if some people use faulty logic and poor maths to try and muddle their way to an understanding of the situation. If they read this thread they might understand where they're going wrong.

It's poor logic in your opinion. They are trying to pre empt things before it gets to a bad stage.

Anyway, what the op said has some merit and isn't that shocking at all to me as many have said similar.

Boggles

Seems Rooney could be on the bench tommorow afterall.

Won't need him with JOS back!

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

It's poor logic in your opinion. They are trying to pre empt things before it gets to a bad stage.

Trying to pre-empt a decline based on a non-existant trend is stupid. There is no way around that. When you are talking about the end of season achievements there is no discernable decline yet and there won't be this season even if we finish third in the league and get knocked out of the CL tomorrow.

Ush1 wrote: »

Anyway, what the op said has some merit and isn't that shocking at all to me as many have said similar.

I gave an answer to the OP's question which I do think was reasonable.

Ush1

Pro. F wrote: »

Trying to pre-empt a decline based on a non-existant trend is stupid. There is no way around that. When you are talking about the end of season achievements there is no discernable decline yet and there won't be this season even if we finish third in the league and get knocked out of the CL tomorrow.


I gave an answer to the OP's question which I do think was reasonable.

Well then what would you call a discernable decline? By definition, it's already a decline trophy wise from the season before if they finish third in the league.

Spud83

Boggles wrote: »

Seems Rooney could be on the bench tommorow afterall.

Won't need him with JOS back!

Where you gettin that from?

Bukman13

Spud83 wrote: »

Where you gettin that from?

Sir Alex seemingly left the door slightly ajar when asked if Rooney may possibly make the bench.

"I don't think so, no," he said. "He'll maybe talk me into it. But, no, it's a difficult one."

Pro. F

Ush1 wrote: »

Well then what would you call a discernable decline? By definition, it's already a decline trophy wise from the season before if they finish third in the league.

A discernable TREND of a decline would probably become evident if we finished trophyless for a few years. It would need a little bit of thought and effort to do it properly but I'm not willing to do that now. But I am very confident that if it was charted you would see that there is no discernable trend of decline yet.

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

Well then what would you call a discernable decline? By definition, it's already a decline trophy wise from the season before if they finish third in the league.

Your definition is wrong.

timetogetfit

Hope we go with this tomorrow

vds

rafael rio vidic evra


carrick flecther

scholes

Valencia Nani

berba

The Muppet

Boggles wrote: »

Seems Rooney could be on the bench tommorow afterall.

Won't need him with JOS back!

Spud83 wrote: »

Where you gettin that from?

He got it from fergies right hand man



This may not be true

SlickRic

good old fashioned 4-4-2, with Fletcher and Scholes in the middle, and Berba & Kiko up front, with the team pressing high up the pitch, and I reckon you'd have a good chance of overwhelming them.

it's whether Fergie still has the balls to do it in Europe.

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

He got it from fergies right hand man



This may not be true

I lol'd

The Muppet

Boskowski wrote: »

I gonna be honest with you.

Bayern is trying desperately to close the gap between themselves and Europe's top clubs. Last years defeat to Barca hurt. One can lose to Barca no problem, but it was the way it happened. It hurt.
Bayern has improved from last year but are they up there with the last four in Europe? Have they the potential to reach the final? I don't know. But the answer is more likely 'No' than 'Yes'.

Now we're talking quarter finals and those kind of ties will show what progress was made or not.

Manchester left an impression of vulnerability in Munich and it gave the players and supporters believe that reaching the next round is possible. I honestly believe Bayern can advance here and has more than an outsider chance at this stage. I think they rattled Utd a bit and while Utd didn't play well neither did Bayner show their full potential.

But yet I can't help but being worried Utd may find a second gear to which Bayern may have no answer to. After all this is the team who's been in 4 consecutive semi-finals, the winners of 2008 and last years finalists.

I'm hoping and believing but if I had to put my house on it I guess I'd go with Utd.

Thats how I feel about it.

Good post, United are usually at their most dangerous after a couple of bad results. I expect United to up their game tomorrow night and really go for Bayern from the off, If I'm right they could score two or three and should go through, If Bayern get an early Goal United are in trouble. It should be a cracker of a game.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

good old fashioned 4-4-2, with Fletcher and Scholes in the middle, and Berba & Kiko up front, with the team pressing high up the pitch, and I reckon you'd have a good chance of overwhelming them.

it's whether Fergie still has the balls to do it in Europe.

I'd worry about Bayern's pressing game being too much for that central midfield to be honest. Can't see Scholes starting again having played on Saturday.

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

Your definition is wrong.

How exactly? What would you call winning less trophies then please tell me? An incline?

The Muppet

Ush1 wrote: »

How exactly? What would you call winning less trophies then please tell me? An incline?

Dodgy refereeing

You could win less trophies and not be in decline, if the opposition improved for example.

RasTa

The Muppet wrote: »

Dodgy refereeing

You could win less trophies and not be in decline, if the opposition improved for example.

Your team is still in decline, enough with your propaganda.

The Muppet

RasTa wrote: »

Your team is still in decline, enough with your propaganda.

I'm all out of propaganda today, how's things in the super fan camp?

MagicMarker

I can't understand why any sane person would want Berba as a lone striker tomorrow.

I'd rather Macheda as a lone striker over Berba ffs!! Preferably though I want both to start.

Mitch Connor

MagicMarker wrote: »

I can't understand why any sane person would want Berba as a lone striker tomorrow.

I'd rather Macheda as a lone striker over Berba ffs!! Preferably though I want both to start.

you are insane.

Sure, Kiko will run more.

But have a much worse first touch, much worse passing, much worse close control, much less experience, much less match practice.

I can't understand why anyone would want Kiko to start ahead of Berbatov for such a massive game.

Ush1

Ferguson reckons Ribery is no faster than Gary Neville. Interesting.

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Ferguson reckons Ribery is no faster than Gary Neville. Interesting.

ah, he's old. Hopefully the eyesight of the coaching team is better!

PHB

Frankly, I think if United play anything like they have in the last 2 games, they'd have a very very tough time of it and may well go out. However, if United can find the form that they had 3-4 weeks ago, I'd be pretty confident we'd go through.

Ultimately, ignoring the peformance in Munich, 2-1 is a good result away from home in the first leg of a European cup tie. Away goal sets it up nicely. Considering despite playing absolutely awful in Munich we successfully blunted their attack pretty much completely, and concedded due to a deflection and a **** up from one of our most consistant defenders, I think defensively we have it in us to keep a clean sheet. If we do keep a clean sheet, I expect us to go through.

If they do score, I hope to **** its an early score.

projectmayhem

I'll give a Bayern-centric preview again, and get torn to shreds by United fans. Again. Then hopefully I'll be right and Bayern win. Again.

At the back, Bayern are weak. Anyone would have admitted that freely last time, and will continue to admit that. Having said that, Martin "Hamburglar" Demichelis played his best football all year on Saturday against Schalke (a 2-1 victory in a game of equal importance to United on Saturday), holding off the very, very good striker that is Kuryiani by doing what he was supposed to be doing. The rest of the defense did a great job, especially with young Contento at left-back doing a stellar job, and feeding great balls to Ribery. Until we became a 10 man team, against 12 (terrible ref)... but we won, importantly. The concern about defense is we may be without van Buyten. If not for the whole game, for the first half at least due to an injury sustained to his knee. He did train today with the team in Old Trafford, but there's no confirmation on how rough his training was. If he's out, we lose a key man at the back and are forced to bring in Contento. As good as he is, shifting Badstuber into the center is dangerous for us as it upsets the flow and puts two young defenders in a huge game. This will force us to have someone like Olic flow back all the time to help them out.

In the middle Man UTD will be torn apart. I'm sorry, but the first leg showed your midfield to be overrated. I said it pre-match and I was harshly critisised for it, and with a midfield that was 50% compiled of subs you hadn't got the flow or possession (note: I say 'you' with the assumption most boardsies here are not Bayern fans). Ribery did a great job, and scored an amazing goal on Saturday. I expect him to be on top form tomorrow. On the other side we were supposed to be weak last time 'round with Altintop but he blew everyone away, but now we have a fully fit, eager Arjen Robben waiting to tear the United defense a new one. Imagine Altintop (who should have scored one or two goals.. Robben won't miss those) squared. That's Robben. Couple that with a newly recuperated and appearing to be in-form and fighting Mario Gomez and you've a fantastic strike force. Olic's work ethic will keep the front of the team ticking over, and what he lacks in skill he makes up for in hard work, and pot shots. One of them is bound to go in. He's cheeky - as United saw last week with his daylight robbing of the defenses ball.

In the center of the pitch is van Bommel. I was shocked and somewhat horrified he didn't have more potshots at the legs of United players. He matured very quickly last week, but I expect a more aggressive yellow-card absorbing Mark on the pitch tomorrow. He's leading his band of merry men into war. But he also can have a fierce shot on goal. He scores when he needs to. He'll be playing a more defensive game, holding off any balls from the center to the forwards on United's side. If the game goes our way though, I expect him to lob some balls forward to Ribery.

Schweinsteiger is also back. He's grossly under-rated by the United fans. Good. You'll get a good taste of a hard working, young and aggressively offensive midfielder tomorrow. No one will get past him. He's great on set pieces (with Ribery and Robben we've a great team for taking free kicks and corners). He's also tall and intimidatingly ugly. He's also got a killer strike at goal from way out. He'll miss loads, but one will go on - and it'll be a blinder. Then hopefully we'll get a close up shot of his girlfriend in the crowd.

That's about it. Bayern are going into Old Trafford with it all to win. We can all argue advantages and disadvantages with United holding a precious away goal - but with our attacking force in full swing an early goal will set us up for a defensive game that allows us to hold down the fort and take pot shots when possible. It's nice to see United fans still writing Bayern off at this point, despite the fact that United have lost as many games as Bayern have in the same week. You're also probably without Rooney - a key player in this. Depending on the score, I think it would be madness for old man grumpy to play Rooney and risk further damage. You need him more for the EPL, and England needs him for the WC.

I'm not writing united off, incidentally. It'll be a tough game. I just think Bayern are going in with the momentum behind them, and a full strength squad (bar the back line, possibly). I saw pics from training today at Old Trafford and Bayern were a happy bunch of guys. Even van Gaal, who never smiles. Never. Even Ribery was talking up the team in the press, and smiling. It's a team that have found their individual talents and managed to blend them into a proper working machine at the end of the season. Meanwhile United have a heap of pressure on them to get through, try and get back on top of the EPL and not injure anymore players.

Le King

I'm of the opinion that Bayern weren't that great first leg. We we're just terrible.

I wouldn't say our midfield is over-rated, because a lot of United fans have been calling for a new CM for a while now. Obviously, were poor through the middle compared to other top-class European sides.

I'm not a big fan of Bayern granted I only seen them in the Champions League 3 times in 2010, but I wasn't impressed with what I saw. But we shouldn't be playing Bayern at all, we should be playing Fiorentina. The Voila out played Bayern over the two legs.


Perhaps, I think you over-rate Bayern and I probably under-rate them.

Nonetheless, I still see this game as a draw match.


Can't see United winning tomorrow. Lack of confidence, lack of Rooney, lack of a decent CM to play with Fletch!