Manchester United vs. FC Bayern München - Champions League Q/Final 2nd Leg

Boskowski

I agree, I think Bayern were only alright last week and thats including the two subs in midfield actually over-performed. I would have expected Bayern to be weaker with Pranjic and Altintop, but they were alright, especially Altintop.
I didn't think Ribery was great either. I mean in absolute terms he was pretty ok, but he was only average by his own standards.

I expect better tonight.

Schweinsteiger will make a big difference, many people don't realize how good he actually is which is pretty darn good. Robben from the start will cause trouble, he has been in great form lately. And if Ribery can improve just a little from last week and van Bommel do his usual stuff then Utd will be having all sorts of problems in the middle of the park.

The only thing I wonder would it not be to open to start those 4 in midfield.
So maybe either stick Pranjic into that midfield to help van Bommel and start with just one striker or else leave Robben or Schweinsteiger on the bench or else let Scheinsteiger do a more defensive role.

In any case, in midfield Bayern is spoilt for choice, its def'ny not a problem area. Actually with regards to firepower the Bayern midfield is better than Utd's by quite a margin I believe.

The Bayern problems are that up front only Olic has shown consistent form and also some weaknesses at center back cannot be disputed.

Again I expect Bayern to be better up front tonight - hoping Gomez will start - and if they can repeat last weeks performance at the back they're alright. Almost certainly not good enough to keep a clean sheet but that would be a lot to expect in any case going to Old Trafford tbh.

Overall certainly good enough to give Utd a proper game. Not a favourite but at least the cockiness has stopped. Bayern are being recognized for what they are. Proper opposition.

Catenaccio!

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Well then don't post any, easily solved.

Wait, is that the best you can come up with after I highlighting how misleading everything you posted was?

BFassassin

Bukman13 wrote: »

Just to lift the mood in here.

The last time United trailed going into a 2nd leg at Old Trafford this happened.


Full of energy and tempo, we need that same desire tonight.

Thanks Bukman13
I was up in the East stand that game. It was epic.

UnitedIrishman

Bukman13 wrote: »

Full of energy and tempo, we need that same desire tonight.

This. Need to get up in their faces, chase and hassle and get the ball moving quickly when we're on the ball. It doesn't have to be pretty. We've no divine right to make it through and I think Fergie will be telling the lads that.

Hopefully OT is hopping aswell as it always is on European nights, makes a huge difference.

Bukman13

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

So what you're saying is we need Alan Smith back :pac:

Nah...Sure we have a ready made replacement in Berbatov.

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

not a favourite but at least the cockiness has stopped. Bayern are being recognized for what they are. Proper opposition.

I honestly don't think Bayern are good opposition at this level of the competition. United's performance last week would have seen us comfortably beaten by all the other teams still in the CL except for CSKA.

PHB

God I can't remember the last time that Carrick has shot, let alone scored, from outside the box.

Boskowski

Pro. F wrote: »

I honestly don't think Bayern are good opposition at this level of the competition. United's performance last week would have seen us comfortably beaten by all the other teams still in the CL except for CSKA.

You were beaten.
Not comfortably but by a weakened Bayern side playing only alright themselves.

antod

Boggles wrote: »

No you said there was no point betting unless you put money on it.

Which reminds me of this picture.

well i hope your rite with score line ,bring on the game now.

Julez

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

So what you're saying is we need Alan Smith back :pac:

Or Michael Carrick to score goals like the ones he scored in this game!

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

You were beaten.
Not comfortably but by a weakened Bayern side playing only alright themselves.

I didn't dispute that and I still say that Bayern are not strong opposition at this stage of the CL. If we are knocked out by them (which is a definite possibility) it will be an embarrassment and an indictment of our team's weaknesses.

Boskowski

They say what I've been saying all along:

Rummenigge:
"Manchester have slightly better cards, but we have a chance - something we didn't think possible two weeks ago."

van Gaal:
"They have that away goal, they are a top team with a lot of experience and they're going to have a lot of support from the stands."
Asked if Manu were favourites he simply answered
"Yes"

Robben:
"They're still favourites, but no longer 80:20 favourites, more like 60:40."


Some trivia added to this...
Bayerns record in Old Trafford is actually quite good. Never lost there it seems. 0:0, 1:1 and 1:0 win so far.

Boskowski

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't dispute that and I still say that Bayern are not strong opposition at this stage of the CL. If we are knocked out by them (which is a definite possibility) it will be an embarrassment and an indictment of our team's weaknesses.

???


* German Championship: 21 (record)
o 1931–32, 1968–69, 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74, 1979–80, 1980–81, 1984–85, 1985–86, 1986–87,
1988–89, 1989–90, 1993–94, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06,
2007–08
* DFB-Pokal: 14 (record)
o 1957, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1971, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1998, 2000,
2003, 2005, 2006, 2008

* UEFA Champions League/European Cup
o Winner (4): 1974, 1975, 1976, 2001
o Runners-up (3): 1982, 1987, 1999

* European Cup Winners' Cup: 1
o 1967

* UEFA Europa League: 1
o 1996

* Intercontinental Cup: 2
o 1976, 2001

herbieflowers

I don't think Man Utd will win this. I can't see them scoring more than Bayern. Also, Bayern have been excellent on the road in the CL this season and could be very dangerous on the counter with Robben and Ribery. Score draw I'd say.

Mitch Connor

Boskowski wrote: »

???


* German Championship: 21 (record)
o 1931–32, 1968–69, 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74, 1979–80, 1980–81, 1984–85, 1985–86, 1986–87,
1988–89, 1989–90, 1993–94, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2004–05, 2005–06,
2007–08
* DFB-Pokal: 14 (record)
o 1957, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1971, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1998, 2000,
2003, 2005, 2006, 2008

* UEFA Champions League/European Cup
o Winner (4): 1974, 1975, 1976, 2001
o Runners-up (3): 1982, 1987, 1999

* European Cup Winners' Cup: 1
o 1967

* UEFA Europa League: 1
o 1996

* Intercontinental Cup: 2
o 1976, 2001

what the hell has Bayerns past success got to do with it? Does their past make them a better side NOW? Does Liverpool's past make them better than Chelsea? Hell, does Nottingham Forests past success make them better than Chelsea?

Boskowski

Mitch Connor wrote: »

what the hell has Bayerns past success got to do with it? Does their past make them a better side NOW? Does Liverpool's past make them better than Chelsea? Hell, does Nottingham Forests past success make them better than Chelsea?

Whats it got to do with it?

They're an umpteenth time champion of practically everything. And while its 9 years ago since they won this competition last its not bloody 30 years is it?
Granted they haven't been the strongest in the naughties. But it's always ebb and flow with teams like this and they sure are still a force in Europe likely to make some sort of comeback sooner or later.

Therefore its hardly an embarrassment. Thats what it got to do with it.

Boggles

herbieflowers wrote: »

I don't think Man Utd will win this. I can't see them scoring more than Bayern. Also, Bayern have been excellent on the road in the CL this season and could be very dangerous on the counter with Robben and Ribery. Score draw I'd say.

I wouldn't say excellent.

They hammered a poor Juve team.

The only other 2 decent sides they played away they lost.

Even though they would take the same loss as they did against Fiorentina in the last round.

Professey Chin

Julez wrote: »

Or Michael Carrick to score goals like the ones he scored in this game!

At least be realistic :P

Mitch Connor

Boskowski wrote: »

Whats it got to do with it?

They're an umpteenth time champion of practically everything. And while its 9 years ago since they won this competition last its not bloody 30 years is it?
Granted they haven't been the strongest in the naughties. But it's always ebb and flow with teams like this and they sure are still a force in Europe likely to make some sort of comeback sooner or later.

Therefore its hardly an embarrassment. Thats what it got to do with it.

The past has nothing to do with. What matters right now is how good Bayern are right now. Not how good they were in years past.

herbieflowers

Boggles wrote: »

I wouldn't say excellent.

They hammered a poor Juve team.

The only other 2 decent sides they played away they lost.

Even though they would take the same loss as they did against Fiorentina in the last round.

Perhaps, but they've scored mroe away from home. May not equate to excellent but they were more convincing in their away victories in the group stages than they were at home. Other than Bordeaux, of course.

Boskowski

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The past has nothing to do with. What matters right now is how good Bayern are right now. Not how good they were in years past.

Well for all I know they are in the quarter finals of the champions league in which they won their first leg to last years finalists and 2008 winners and looking at their squad sheet they look like a European top side to me.

Other than that the jury is still out on how good they actually are.

Vanbis

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

At least be realistic :P

Gibson to start ahead of Carrick tonight for me

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

Whats it got to do with it?

They're an umpteenth time champion of practically everything. And while its 9 years ago since they won this competition last its not bloody 30 years is it?
Granted they haven't been the strongest in the naughties. But it's always ebb and flow with teams like this and they sure are still a force in Europe likely to make some sort of comeback sooner or later.

Therefore its hardly an embarrassment. Thats what it got to do with it.

Dude their past has got nothing to do with it. I'm saying they are a not a good standard of opposition at this stage of the cl NOW. This current Bayern team is nothing special imho and I will be embarrassed for my team if we lose to them. The fact that they have a glorious history is in no way a factor of how I judge the team's quality.

Bukman13

Vanbis wrote: »

Gibson to start ahead of Carrick tonight for me

Just sit him in midfield and let him take potshots all night.

One of them is bound to go in .

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

Dude their past has got nothing to do with it. I'm saying they are a not a good standard of opposition at this stage of the cl NOW. This current Bayern team is nothing special imho and I will be embarrassed for my team if we lose to them. The fact that they have a glorious history is in no way a factor of how I judge the team's quality.

in midfield they are good enough imo. Schweinsteiger, Robben, Ribery are very very good players. Van Bommel is not bad either. their defence is weak imo though. I think they have it in them to beat or draw with United tonight - at which point I agree with you in that it is a sad indictment of United and the level of our own midfield.

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

Well for all I know they are in the quarter finals of the champions league in which they won their first leg to last years finalists and 2008 winners and looking at their squad sheet they look like a European top side to me.

Other than that the jury is still out on how good they actually are.

The jury isn't out for me. Their squad sheet doesn't look anything like a top European side to me. They've got a good midfield and almost nothing else.

Boskowski

Pro. F wrote: »

Dude their past has got nothing to do with it. I'm saying they are a not a good standard of opposition at this stage of the cl NOW. This current Bayern team is nothing special imho and I will be embarrassed for my team if we lose to them. The fact that they have a glorious history is in no way a factor of how I judge the team's quality.

And I'm saying thats bloody arrogant.
Its after all not as if Bayern vanished into the lower leagues or something. Since their win in 2001 they featured in the Champions League practically every year and while they haven't been strong enough to make any sort of impact in the playoff stages one could not be surprised if they did either. Especially not with the squad they're having.
You sound like all you could accept defeat from was Barca or something.
There is other teams out there with big budgets and ambitions you know.

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

in midfield they are good enough imo. Schweinsteiger, Robben, Ribery are very very good players. Van Bommel is not bad either. their defence is weak imo though. I think they have it in them to beat or draw with United tonight - at which point I agree with you in that it is a sad indictment of United and the level of our own midfield.

yep I completely agree that their midfield is good. But the rest of the team is very weak.

Catenaccio!

And United's midfield most certainly doesn't look like a top European side.

Ush1

The Muppet wrote: »

Dodgy refereeing

You could win less trophies and not be in decline, if the opposition improved for example.

Doesn't matter, it's still a relative decline. 1 trophy less than last year. I think alot of people in this thread need to look up the definition of the word.

Bukman13

Ush1 wrote: »

Doesn't matter, it's still a relative decline. 1 trophy less than last year. I think alot of people in this thread need to look up the definition of the word.

By that definition Barcelona are a team in decline.

Ush1

Bukman13 wrote: »

By that definition Barcelona are a team in decline.

Yep, sure are. In fact, alot of people say they aren't as good as last year play wise anyway. Not as dominating in matches, etc..

Boskowski

Pro. F wrote: »

The jury isn't out for me. Their squad sheet doesn't look anything like a top European side to me. They've got a good midfield and almost nothing else.

I loled.

For starters they have a great midfield, better than Utds anyway. No need to go through the names again.

Up front its not too shabby either although I admit the form hasn't been great. But Klose has won the golden boot how many times? And he's not over the hill yet. Just always been going through ups and downs. Gomez has been outstanding with Stuttgart and has been the record signing in the Bundesliga and I expect a lot from him in the future. Olic is simply outstanding, my favourite player. Mueller is a great talent already proving himself in the Champions League in his first real year as a regular on the squad.

At the back they have Lahm who is arguably the best wing back Bayern ever had and Badstuber who has the potential to be not far behind.
In the center back positions Bayern is average fair enough although van Buyten is not too shabby.

In goal Bayern is good to firm but its always going to be tough to find a replacement for Kahn. Which they haven't found yet. Butt is just a solid enough interim solution.

How is that for example not a European top side but e.g. Arsenal or Lyon is considered to be one?

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

Doesn't matter, it's still a relative decline. 1 trophy less than last year. I think alot of people in this thread need to look up the definition of the word.

I asked you yesterday what you think the word means.

Cos I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

And I'm saying thats bloody arrogant.
Its after all not as if Bayern vanished into the lower leagues or something. Since their win in 2001 they featured in the Champions League practically every year and while they haven't been strong enough to make any sort of impact in the playoff stages one could not be surprised if they did either. Especially not with the squad they're having.
You sound like all you could accept defeat from was Barca or something.
There is other teams out there with big budgets and ambitions you know.

I wouldn't be embarrassed by defeat to Barce, Real, Lyon, Arsenal (fully fit), Inter, Liverpool (of last season). Those teams are the type you need to beat if you want to be the best in Europe. The current Bayern team are nothing special when compared imho. We've reached the last two finals and it would not be arrogant to be embarrassed by a sudden fall from grace (should it happen) of being beaten by a lower class of opposition. (lower class compared to the other teams i mentioned, not compared to united)

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

I asked you yesterday what you think the word means.

Cos I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Where did you ask me what I think it means?

Well I'm more than pretty sure I'm right so I won't be going to the effort of pasting a reference from dictionary.com, but you're more than welcome.:)

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Where did you ask me what I think it means?

Well I'm more than pretty sure I'm right so I won't be going to the effort of pasting a reference from dictionary.com, but you're more than welcome.:)

i think the issue is that you automatically link a decline in success with a decline in ability. which isn't the case in reality.

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i think the issue is that you automatically link a decline in success with a decline in ability. which isn't the case in reality.

Nope, I never said anything like that.

SantryRed

Pro. F wrote: »

The jury isn't out for me. Their squad sheet doesn't look anything like a top European side to me. They've got a good midfield and almost nothing else.

I don't really want to start something here but what exactly is United's squad sheet bar maybe 3 or 4 players?

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

Where did you ask me what I think it means?

Well I'm more than pretty sure I'm right so I won't be going to the effort of pasting a reference from dictionary.com, but you're more than welcome.:)

dictionary.com wrote:

–noun13.a downward slope; declivity.

14.a downward movement, as of prices or population; diminution: a decline in the stock market.

15.a failing or gradual loss, as in strength, character, power, or value; deterioration: the decline of the Roman Empire.

16.a gradual deterioration of the physical powers, as in later life or in disease: After his seventieth birthday he went into a decline.

17.progress downward or toward the close, as of the sun or the day.

18.the later years or last part: He became an editor in the decline of his life.

As you can see, the definition requires a gradual downward shift over time in order for something to be labelled a decline.

You're confused by the fact that a year seems like a period of time, when in fact it is simply two datapoints, which is of course insufficiant data to suggest development of a trend.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of statistics will tell you this.

Clearly you have no such background.

RandolphEsq

I have a knot in my stomach about the match tonight. Definitely I am gonna need some alcohol to settle the nerves. Come on United! All out! Ahhhhhhhh!

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Nope, I never said anything like that.

You have said if United don't win the league or make the CL final that they are in decline, have you not? Thought that is what you said yesterday.

Headshot

this is starting to remind me of that humility crap which was in the man utd thread.

really am growing tired of this

keane2097 wrote: »

As you can see, the definition requires a gradual downward shift over time in order for something to be labelled a decline.

You're confused by the fact that a year seems like a period of time, when in fact it is simply two datapoints, which is of course insufficiant data to suggest development of a trend.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of statistics will tell you this.

Clearly you have no such background.

no point ush makes up his own definition to suit his own agenda

partyguinness

I think United are in big trouble tonight.....in fact I will be placing money on Bayern to go through.

Mitch Connor

partyguinness wrote: »

I think United are in big trouble tonight.....in fact I will be placing money on Bayern to go through.

tis a good bet. United need to either keep a clean sheet or score at least 3.

Both require vastly improved midfield performances from all involved. (and some shots from Berbatov....)

Personally I reckon it will be 1-1 tonight, and hopefully the final indicator to Fergie that he needs to spend on the midfield, properly, in the summer.

keane2097

SantryRed wrote: »

I don't really want to start something here but what exactly is United's squad sheet bar maybe 3 or 4 players?

Embarrassing?

Ush1

keane2097 wrote: »

As you can see, the definition requires a gradual downward shift over time in order for something to be labelled a decline.

You're confused by the fact that a year seems like a period of time, when in fact it is simply two datapoints, which is of course insufficiant data to suggest development of a trend.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of statistics will tell you this.

Clearly you have no such background.

One of it's definitions requires a gradual downward shift, and anyway, the time isn't specified so I'm still correct even ignoring the other definitions.

No I'm not confused, a year doesn't seem like a period of time, it is.

Less trophies will lend a weight to any doubts you may have about the club shifting downward anyway. As I said before, I'm not basing anything solely on trophies won.

But by defintion 2 datapoints is enough to show decline, fact.

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You have said if United don't win the league or make the CL final that they are in decline, have you not? Thought that is what you said yesterday.

Yep, which is correct by definition. I never mentioned ability or anything.

keane2097

Ush1 wrote: »

One of it's definitions requires a gradual downward shift, and anyway, the time isn't specified so I'm still correct even ignoring the other definitions.

No I'm not confused, a year doesn't seem like a period of time, it is.

Less trophies will lend a weight to any doubts you may have about the club shifting downward anyway. As I said before, I'm not basing anything solely on trophies won.

But by defintion 2 datapoints is enough to show decline, fact.

*Sigh*

You don't know what you're talking about and refuse to be corrected so good luck to you.

Pro. F

Boskowski wrote: »

For starters they have a great midfield, better than Utds anyway.

United's midfield is very very weak. I have been saying this for years.

Boskowski wrote: »

Up front its not too shabby either although I admit the form hasn't been great.

Not too shabby with not great form is not what I would see as the quality of the top European teams.

Boskowski wrote: »

At the back they have Lahm who is arguably the best wing back Bayern ever had and Badstuber who has the potential to be not far behind.
In the center back positions Bayern is average fair enough although van Buyten is not too shabby.

In goal Bayern is good to firm but its always going to be tough to find a replacement for Kahn. Which they haven't found yet. Butt is just a solid enough interim solution.

The fullbacks I have a lot of respect for. Centre backs and keeper are very poor imo.

So your team has a good midfield, poor strikers, CBs and keeper (all being judged at the top CL level and imo) - that does not equal a top european side for me. You may disagree but it's wrong to call my reasoning arrogant and it's silly to start banging on about past glories.

Boskowski wrote: »

How is that for example not a European top side but e.g. Arsenal or Lyon is considered to be one?

Arsenal when they're fully fit have much better strikers (RVP) an equally good midfield and slightly better defence imo.
Maybe I would be wrong to speak of Lyon so highly, i don't know, they just appear to me to be a very blanced team who can really move the ball around and have no obvious weaknesses.