Cork - Limerick Rail Link

corktina

rather discredits the whole thing doesn't it!

Sponge Bob

Very pie in sky if they are also abandoning the line @ same time eg foynes and cement traffic both.

cgcsb

the document also talks about an airport DART spur (that old chestnut), electrification of the Galway and Cork lines and running Cork and Galway services, via DART underground and the airport spur to Dublin Airport.

invinciblePRSTV

Pie in the sky i know but surely a far more amenable solution then re-opening Charleville - Limerick would be the consolidation of the various services on the WRC - Limerick Jtn - Waterford lines into a single cross country service with Cork connections at Lim Jtn?

Removing LCs and merging services on the Cork - Lim Jtn & the WRC/Lim - Wat lines would do far more for the Munster/western seaboard train services then opening another old line. No doubt there is numerous barriers to such a proposal ever happening.

dowlingm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Removing LCs and merging services on the Cork - Lim Jtn & the WRC/Lim - Wat lines would do far more for the Munster/western seaboard train services then opening another old line. No doubt there is numerous barriers to such a proposal ever happening.

Irish Rail has never troubled us with the reasons why for instance the first Galway-Limerick couldn't have a driver step into the rear cab from the platform at Limerick, the Galway driver step out and the train blast out of the station as soon as the clock hit the timetabled minute for Waterford and the same for the first train ex Waterford.

--Note this takes no account of other movements, just illustrates an ideal--
Dep Galway 0620 Arr Limerick 0835 (current timetabling)
Dep Limerick 0840 Arr Limerick Junction 0907
Dep Limerick Junction 0910 Arr Waterford 1048

Because of track passing limitations that is actually 21 minutes longer than it could be due to slow running of the Galway-Limerick service.

Dep Waterford 0640 Arr Limerick Junction 0818
Dep Limerick Junction 0820 (currently 0840) Arr Limerick 0847 (currently 0915)
Dep Limerick 0850 Arr Galway 1050

Now the thing to notice there is that if the Limerick-Waterford service was minimally impeded/slaved to the arrival/departure of Dublin or Cork trains it can manage 2h8m station to station. With a proper relay of the track and rationalisation in Waterford that might come down to 2h dead. The current BE 55 time is 2h25min. If you query the IE timetable all of the results are 2h28 or longer and are displayed as requiring a transfer. Even if you wanted to IE won't let you make an online booking. Why would you take the train?

Wild Bill

If we still want to build the M20 then I see no point in wasting money on a new Cork-Limerick railway.

This sort of thinking brought us the useless, pointless Galway - Limerick line running up beside the M18.

pigtown

What if it was built in conjunction with the M20? Or at least buy enough land beside the M20 so it could be built in the future. Would that reduce the costs by much?

corktina

never mind how much it might cost to build it, how much would it lose every year?

Theres no advantage to spending millions on this line when trains could go via Lim Junc AND make connections for the Waterford service (if service is the right word)

total pie in the sky.

cgcsb

Wild Bill wrote: »

If we still want to build the M20 then I see no point in wasting money on a new Cork-Limerick railway.

This sort of thinking brought us the useless, pointless Galway - Limerick line running up beside the M18.

I suppose that the point would be that the max speed on the proposed M20 is 120kph where as, if the route is constructed properly(i.e. not a WRC botch job). Limerick-Cork could be a 50 minute journey, with speeds of 160kph(assuming an upgrade of Charleville-Kent).

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

I suppose that the point would be that the max speed on the proposed M20 is 120kph where as, if the route is constructed properly(i.e. not a WRC botch job). Limerick-Cork could be a 50 minute journey, with speeds of 160kph(assuming an upgrade of Charleville-Kent).

Perhaps - but given cars actually travel on motorways at 140kph in RL and then add in the travel to stations etc I doubt rail will ever compete.

Could reserve a corridor alongside the motorway I suppose; even if they never build a railway it could serve as a nature corridor

corktina

160k is not fast enough for rail to compete with road.

In any case Limerick to Cork in 50 minutes would imply a non stop journey. I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

160k is not fast enough for rail to compete with road.

Trains in Ireland don't surpass 160kmh, yet they compete with roads. The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'. On what basis, do you believe 160kph to be uncompetitive?

corktina wrote: »

In any case Limerick to Cork in 50 minutes would imply a non stop journey. I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

A stop in Mallow can be accommodated within the 50 minutes, this stop would allow Kerry passengers to connect with Cork-Galway services

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

The fact that Cork-Limerick made it into that document is only one of several things that made me shake my head in disbelief at it.

corktina wrote: »

I don't believe there are enough through passengers to fill a train and make it viable.

So on the one hand it's assumed that there is no demand for a Cork- Limerick line but when IE do an investigation into it they are criticised. While you were ultimately proved right Corktina, I'd still prefer the proposed line to be ruled out based on investigations rather than assumptions.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

Trains in Ireland don't surpass 160kmh, yet they compete with roads. The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'. On what basis, do you believe 160kph to be uncompetitive?

In the UK in the 70s studies showed that for rail to competewith the M4 a crusing speed of 125mph was necessary.160kmax city centre to city centre ( or almost!) cannot compete with 120k door to door.

IEs share is falling rapidly and in any case I seriously doubt your figure of 50% is in any way accurate
(

A stop in Mallow can be accommodated within the 50 minutes, this stop would allow Kerry passengers to connect with Cork-Galway services

are you imagining that Tralee passengers from Limerick will travel via Mallow :eek: I think BE will be a better option and wont need hundreds of millions invested in a rail link!

btw at present Cork to Limerick junction takes just over an hour. How is your 50 minutes going to be acheived?)

corktina

pigtown wrote: »

So on the one hand it's assumed that there is no demand for a Cork- Limerick line but when IE do an investigation into it they are criticised. While you were ultimately proved right Corktina, I'd still prefer the proposed line to be ruled out based on investigations rather than assumptions.

pure common sense rules out a line largly wiped out by road improvements, which was in any case not suitable for high speeds at many points. Common sense tells me that to rebuild it would cost at least as much as the WRC has cost so far (over €100m). Common sense tells me we have no money and even if we did, there is already a line serving Limerick and Charleville which would also have connections for Waterford available if the will was there to make something of it.

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

btw at present Cork to Limerick junction takes just over an hour. How is your 50 minutes going to be acheived?)

They'll put some 'go fast' stripes on the engine

dowlingm

So let me get this straight - IE don't have to money to make existing lines other than Cork Dublin 100mph, but they have money to rebuild from scratch a 100mph alignment from Charleville to Limerick? Come on folks can we please climb down from the crazy tree? We'll be pounding into Limerick at 100mph past Raheen and then slowing to 5mph at Limerick Yard which will still be in bits?

pigtown - my criticism was mainly that IE was lumping doable projects like upgrading the Navan branch from Drogheda for passenger use or extending the Midleton line to Youghal with items like Charleville-Limerick which doesn't even have an alignment in IE ownership any more. I think that's fair comment, don't you?

pigtown

Corktina
I'm just making the point that I would prefer to have potentially important decisions- be they about infrastructure or economic policy or whatever- made after some thought has gone into them, instead of just assuming that they are unsuitable.

Dowlingm
I get what you mean about the difference in the projects but I don't see an issue with having them both in the same report. Maybe thats just me.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

The Dublin-Cork line accounts for 50% of all journeys between Dublin and Cork, including car bus and air passengers. this 50% figure is pretty poor for our best performing rail line, still it is 'competitive'.

Not true, it currently stands at:

- 50% car
- 35% train
- 15% bus

But with the introduction of the Cork to Dublin direct non stop bus service from GoBus, it will likely slide to 25% train, 25% bus as it currently is on the Galway to Dublin line.

Wild Bill

bk wrote: »

But with the introduction of the Cork to Dublin direct non stop bus service from GoBus

Which will also have 'go-fast' stripes?

Wild Bill

Sorry

Ted Mosby

dowlingm wrote: »

So let me get this straight - IE don't have to money to make existing lines other than Cork Dublin 100mph, but they have money to rebuild from scratch a 100mph alignment from Charleville to Limerick? Come on folks can we please climb down from the crazy tree? We'll be pounding into Limerick at 100mph past Raheen and then slowing to 5mph at Limerick Yard which will still be in bits?

pigtown - my criticism was mainly that IE was lumping doable projects like upgrading the Navan branch from Drogheda for passenger use or extending the Midleton line to Youghal with items like Charleville-Limerick which doesn't even have an alignment in IE ownership any more. I think that's fair comment, don't you?

This is boards, surely posters know by now that you must never ever advocate any improvement in the railways here, while blithely ignoring overspending on the motorway network. Its the law

Wild Bill

Ted Mosby wrote: »

overspending on the motorway network. Its the law

No. It's a myth. :cool:

dowlingm

Ted Mosby wrote: »

This is boards, surely posters know by now that you must never ever advocate any improvement in the railways here, while blithely ignoring overspending on the motorway network. Its the law

:rolleyes:

As for the M20, I've never seen much point of rushing the whole thing and I've done plenty of miles on the N20. The Mallow to Croom section, absolutely, Buttevant is very dodgy and adding an exit for them was the least they could do but the rest seems to me like it could wait.

In fact, if the Department had any cop on some consideration should have been given to running the Dublin-Cork line through the Charleville-Newtwopothouse with an alignment good enough for 140mph and high enough for 25kV DC plus 9'6" containers under current standards which might then be good enough for 125mph in a decade or so. I think the current speed is 80mph or so, certainly though that bloody manual LC west of Buttevant. Maybe the OP could start a fundraising effort to add a similar landtake between Charleville and Patrickswell. Having a rail line down the middle of a motorway would put a spanner in the works of the usual parish pumpers who would demand halts in Bruree and Croom.

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

:rolleyes:

As for the M20, I've never seen much point of rushing the whole thing and I've done plenty of miles on the N20. The Mallow to Croom section, absolutely, Buttevant is very dodgy and adding an exit for them was the least they could do but the rest seems to me like it could wait.

In fact, if the Department had any cop on some consideration should have been given to running the Dublin-Cork line through the Charleville-Newtwopothouse with an alignment good enough for 140mph and high enough for 25kV DC plus 9'6" containers under current standards which might then be good enough for 125mph in a decade or so. I think the current speed is 80mph or so, certainly though that bloody manual LC west of Buttevant. Maybe the OP could start a fundraising effort to add a similar landtake between Charleville and Patrickswell. Having a rail line down the middle of a motorway would put a spanner in the works of the usual parish pumpers who would demand halts in Bruree and Croom.

Well I'd like to hope that if a totally new rail line is ever built in this country it would be done properly and wouldn't stop in every small village it passes. Wishful thinking?

NITransport

bk wrote: »

Not true, it currently stands at:

- 50% car
- 35% train
- 15% bus

But with the introduction of the Cork to Dublin direct non stop bus service from GoBus, it will likely slide to 25% train, 25% bus as it currently is on the Galway to Dublin line.

We'll see what that breakdown's like as fuel prices continue to rise. Intercity lines particularly the Cork (Limerick will obviously benefit) and Belfast lines need significant investment... however, I wouldn't trust the Government or Iarnrod Eireann with the task.

Could Network Rail be brought in to manage the states railways?

dowlingm

NITransport wrote: »

Could Network Rail be brought in to manage the states railways?

having them take over NIR's infrastructure might be more plausible, especially since their derogation disappears in a year too. As for the RoI, if govt won't pay IE enough to keep the infrastructure competitive who do you reckon is going to give NR the money to? Aside from the fact that if IE is not to be demerged but instead another firm contracted, it would have to be tendered.

bk

NITransport wrote: »

We'll see what that breakdown's like as fuel prices continue to rise.

Sigh and what does intercity rail in Ireland run on, steam?

No it runs on the same diesel that intercity bus coaches use. Any increase in fuel prices will also lead to increases in train fares. Bus coaches are actually more fuel efficient then diesel intercity trains (per passenger mile) so they will actually be less effected.

Also it ignores the gradual shift to electric cars and more fuel efficient hybrid cars.

RadioClash

NITransport wrote: »

Could Network Rail be brought in to manage the states railways?

I'd rather someone up to the job like Deutsche Bahn. Compared to other major European countries their rail system is shocking. Delays all over the shop, slow and congested on main lines, and far too expensive to boot.

corktina

Network Rail arent responsible for any of that. It is the TOCs job to provide the services.