How do we remove religious influence from schools.

Erren Music

What can we do to remove religious influence from schools.

This is not another attack the RCC thread. This is about putting the church where it should be, in peoples private lives only.

Aside from writing to every TD, newspapers, senate, and using the current public opinion about their involvement in cover ups and the fact that they are brainwashing our young in primary schools.

how will we get rid of them?

The government obviously has no interest in the protection of childrens rights, and it seems to be doing everything to avoid prosecuting anyone who is guilty of abuse.

Are we on our own?

The church seem to be content to let this peeter out but they have inflicted more damage to themselves than I could have dreamed of previously.

cypharius

By removing Preists from the boards of schools, and refusing to allow the Parish to apoint them.

Also, bringing up the point that pictures of a half-naked skitzofreniac being nailed to a peice of wood should not be in an enviroment where children are meant to learn.

Also, demanding that the "Dawn Of The Dead" plot is sumerised every time the "Resurection" is mentioned.

Nah, but in reality there is no way, the hysterical parents who don't want little billy to be an atheist are the problem, and they aren't going to listen to reason.

liamw

You could donate, lobby or volunteer for Educate Together schools.

lynski

Dont keep quiet, question people who blindly follow tradition.
look for educate together schools in your area and register a protest to the dept if not.
get involved in whatever schools your children do go
do not allow religious edu for ur children if u dont want it

Fuhrer

Build your own schools and then teach in them for little or no money for several years.

Rev Hellfire

Motive the general population to actually care enough to do something about it.
Lets the face it the status quo works for the majority and you'll need arguments stronger than its right thing to do if its to hit them in their pockets.

PeterIanStaker

Get the Opus Dei heads out of the senior ranks of the Dept of Ed. ?

hiorta

The time spent on indoctrinating the children could make a huge difference to the standard attained over the years at school.

On another approach, all religions should be introduced and have equal time - by their practioners - to achieve the desired balanced understanding by the youngsters.

This has nuisance value as wel as being fair and even-handed, another desirable quality.

philologos

Erren Music wrote: »

This is not another attack the RCC thread. This is about putting the church where it should be, in peoples private lives only.

Since when is belief a matter for peoples private lives only?

This is more about where you think it should be rather than where society as a whole thinks it should be.

Society is a marketplace of ideas and people. My faith is a public aspect of my life, in the same way as other peoples political beliefs are an aspect of their lives.

You can criticise the role of church in education without demanding that peoples faith be relegated to the private. That won't ever happen.

Kooli

Jakkass wrote: »

My faith is a public aspect of my life, in the same way as other peoples political beliefs are an aspect of their lives.

Well would it be OK if over 90% of schools were run by Fianna Fail? And spent considerable time indoctrinating children into the policies of Fianna Fail and encouraging them to vote Fianna Fail? I know it's a ridiculous analogy, but something can be a public part of YOUR life without it being enforced on ALL!

I don't care what beliefs anyone holds personally, and I think they're more than welcome to share them in public. But when they try and instill these beliefs in MY children, by making it very difficult for me to find an alternative education for them, then I do have a problem!

philologos

Kooli, please re-read the last line of my post again, and think of what I was trying to say with that in mind.

I personally don't think that faith schools are bad, rather we need to have enough secular alternatives. I think the education system should reflect society, and that's the reason why I think a one size fits all secular education system is a woeful idea. So woeful that very few Western nations have such a system in place.

With these alternatives, you shouldn't have to bring your children to a Catholic school, yet people who want to send their children to Catholic schools still can.

Dades

Jakkass, do we really need this again?

This is the A&A forum - people here want a secular education system. Not an education system that ignores religion - but one that teaches about all faiths. It's not (despite what was said above) about relegating religion to private lives it's about equality.

So unless you have any input in how to remove the religious influence from schools perhaps let's not rehash the debate.

Erren Music

hiorta wrote: »

The time spent on indoctrinating the children could make a huge difference to the standard attained over the years at school.

I agree completely. I think they spend 2 1/2 hours a week learning nothing.

hiorta wrote: »

On another approach, all religions should be introduced and have equal time - by their practioners - to achieve the desired balanced understanding by the youngsters.

This has nuisance value as wel as being fair and even-handed, another desirable quality.

Great idea, and one the religious could not disagree with, as it would offer a balanced view.

Jackass how do you feel about this idea.

Jakkass wrote: »

Since when is belief a matter for peoples private lives only?

Not everyone believes the same thing.

Jakkass wrote: »

This is more about where you think it should be rather than where society as a whole thinks it should be.

I would like a referendum on this, I think you would be very surprised at the result

Jakkass wrote: »

Society is a marketplace of ideas and people. My faith is a public aspect of my life, in the same way as other peoples political beliefs are an aspect of their lives.

Political beliefs are not the same as religious beliefs. Politics exists in reality, it is not a delusion.

Jakkass wrote: »

You can criticise the role of church in education without demanding that peoples faith be relegated to the private. That won't ever happen.

Jackass, religion has no place in schools in 2010, and certainly not by an organisation as corrupt as the catholic church. How can anyone trust RCC with children.

School is for educating children in facts and reality, and should not be used as an indoctrination excuse into a 2,000 year old cult.

Jackass I have to ask you not to derail this thread. This is about removing the church from controlling our primary schools.

Erren Music

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Get the Opus Dei heads out of the senior ranks of the Dept of Ed. ?

How many in there, do you have names and details?

Whose ear do they have in power.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

philologos

Erren Music wrote: »

I agree completely. I think they spend 2 1/2 hours a week learning nothing.

It makes you wonder though. Why do faith schools out perform their secular counterparts in Britain?

Erren Music wrote: »

Great idea, and one the religious could not disagree with, as it would offer a balanced view.

Jackass how do you feel about this idea.

I was educated in this fashion for RE in examinations at second level. However, the school had an Anglican ethos.

Erren Music wrote: »

Not everyone believes the same thing.

So? This doesn't mean that faith should be private. I'm about as comfortable with an Orthodox Jew regarding their beliefs as public in their lives.

In a Western society that regards free speech, and freedom of conscience at its core there is no place for relegating peoples beliefs to the private.

I regard Christianity as a key part of my identity. Just because there are people of other beliefs in my society doesn't mean that it won't be a key part of my identity in public.

I don't believe that faith is a private matter, if you have it it will ultimately inform your everyday behaviour.

Erren Music wrote: »

I would like a referendum on this, I think you would be very surprised at the result

The Constitution actually promotes freedom of education including that of morals and religious belief.

Erren Music wrote: »

Political beliefs are not the same as religious beliefs. Politics exists in reality, it is not a delusion.

Why is religion a delusion? And why should atheism be enforced in the laws of State? - Interesting you say this, as your agenda isn't about secularism at all, its about including state atheism in legislation.

Erren Music wrote: »

Jackass, religion has no place in schools in 2010, and certainly not by an organisation as corrupt as the catholic church. How can anyone trust RCC with children.

An assessment of most Western countries will inform you that churches have some role, even if partial in the education system.

Erren Music wrote: »

School is for educating children in facts and reality, and should not be used as an indoctrination excuse into a 2,000 year old cult.

Again. You would need to demonstrate that religion isn't a reality if you are going to alter laws of State. It isn't good enough in law to suggest that because you don't believe in something that you should enforce certain rules on them. Russell's teapot isn't good enough for law.

Erren Music wrote: »

Jackass I have to ask you not to derail this thread. This is about removing the church from controlling our primary schools.

If I am deemed to be de-railing things, let Dades deal with that. Or press this button: to the left hand side of my posts.

I don't consider it to be de-railing to question absurd assumptions.

Erren Music

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It saddens me too. How selfish is it of a parent to force their religion onto their child. Instruct the child in all religions and let them pick their own or none at all.

(I Will start a new thread on this so it does not detract from this one)

I think this horrify's the religious more than atheism, because children would be taught that all religions were equally valid.

"Every child has the right not to have their mind soiled by other people's bad ideas and or false notions. It is far more important that a child be taught how to think instead of what to think."

(sorry last line is a quote)

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

If I am deemed to be de-railing things, let Dades deal with that. Or press this button: to the left hand side of my posts.

OK then I have reported it.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't consider it to be de-railing to question absurd assumptions.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Quote of the year considering what you believe

dvpower

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I can't how education privatisation can solve any problems in rural Ireland. In most cases kids go to the nearest school, because the next nearest school is too far away to be practical (as well as other benefits like the kids going to school with their friends).

A better alternative would be a secular state system with the school buildings being made available to religious authorities for religious instruction outside of teaching hours.

I'm not in favour of church run schools but if that's what parents want then they should be free to set them up; but the state should use its resources to support the universal system before it tries to fund a private one.

Dades

Considering there's a new thread open for spillover - this one should be solely for thoughts on bringing about a secular school system.

I might even clean this thread up if it proves useful.

Erren Music

Dades wrote: »

Considering there's a new thread open for spillover - this one should be solely for thoughts on bringing about a secular school system.

I might even clean this thread up if it proves useful.

Clean away dades.

I only started the new thread because it is an interesting question, please guys keep this on topic.

Dades

Don't know if anyone was watching prime time last night (I watched the last half hour) - it was about about faith and schools.

Miriam O'Callaghan asserted that taking groups of children off separately to teach them religion makes them think they are different, and is a terrible idea.

The priest on the panel responded by saying "but the are different".

My immediate thought was "only because you are telling them they are." :mad:
(That was the cleaned up version).

It made me sad.

philologos

Dades wrote: »

Don't know if anyone was watching prime time last night (I watched the last half hour) - it was about about faith and schools.

Miriam O'Callaghan asserted that taking groups of children off separately to teach them religion makes them think they are different, and is a terrible idea.

The priest on the panel responded by saying "but the are different".

My immediate thought was "only because you are telling them they are." :mad:
(That was the cleaned up version).

It made me sad.

I agree with you here.

The main reason being that this isn't meant to be a faith school, but a state school. As such there shouldn't be a specific ethos to the school, particularly as Ireland isn't a Catholic state, there should be no formal agreements with the Roman Catholic Church as for what to teach in state schools, especially given the fact that 14% of the Irish population are not Roman Catholics. 6% do not believe, 5% are other Christians, and 3% are of other religions. The figures are probably going to differ again in the 2011 census.

If Catholic parents want to educate their children in Catholicism while at school, they can enrol them in a Roman Catholic school.

I also agreed with what Paul Rowe had to say on the matter. I actually personally would have very little difficulty with the Educate Together system as long as they are not teaching children about contentious political and social matters in the classroom.

storm2811

as soon as you walk into our school theres at least three statues of the holy mary,and the stations of the cross are in one of the hallways,we have to do confession every few months and religious speakers are always in preaching to us!

mentioned it to the principal that she cant do this but went in one ear and out the other cos shes an ex nun!

and theres two muslim children coming in next year or the year after,what are they gonna do then?

wrecks my head..

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

If Catholic parents want to educate their children in Catholicism while at school, they can enrol them in a Roman Catholic school.

Luckily, that's very easy in this country, since they control access to around 93% of them and actively discriminate against people of other religious backgrounds (and none), producing effects that are effectively racist, as happened out in Diswellstown two years back.

<grunt>

.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

The main reason being that this isn't meant to be a faith school, but a state school.

Yes - this is what made it so bad. So the VEC in question, rather than openly being a "faith" school, they split the children up during school time at take them off to teach them how they differ from their classmates.

@ storm2811 - what type of school are you in?

magicbastarder

Jakkass wrote: »

It makes you wonder though. Why do faith schools out perform their secular counterparts in Britain?

from what i understand, it is because faith schools tend to be private, with greater resources, and people who send their kids to private schools tend to be more successful than average, and have a greater faith in the power of education. the faith is incidental.

iUseVi

magicbastarder wrote: »

from what i understand, it is because faith schools tend to be private, with greater resources, and people who send their kids to private schools tend to be more successful than average, and have a greater faith in the power of education. the faith is incidental.

They also tend to have much smaller class sizes, which is not inconsequential.

mehfesto

I'm surprised nobody has suggested leaving them to it.
They've done more damage to themselves than recruiting in my eyes.

I was mocked by nun and a priest for my picture of the nativity having Jesus say "mama". -"he couldn't talk at one day old!" the whole class laughed.

...but he could walk on water, multiply food and come back from the dead.

The priests of my time had no common language with children, they're not cool and they didn't understand the pressures of the childs society. Nobody listened to them, I'd be surprised if anything has changed.

Being told Power Rangers are not good because they were aggressive was winning no one over. Leave them to it, it says more about their desire for control than their want to actually help.

storm2811

Dades wrote: »

@ storm2811 - what type of school are you in?

a community college!when i ask teachers about it and ask are they allowed to have so much religious items and teachings in the school they just say it's because the majority of students are christian and shrug..!

Dades

Well, maybe as mehfesto suggests, schools may soon run out of people wanting to display their religious iconography everywhere. Priests and nuns are drying up.

Eventually.

Rev Hellfire

storm2811 wrote: »

a community college!when i ask teachers about it and ask are they allowed to have so much religious items and teachings in the school they just say it's because the majority of students are christian and shrug..!

Can you not get yourself excused from class ?

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

It makes you wonder though. Why do faith schools out perform their secular counterparts in Britain?

Well, what is the essential difference between a faith school and a standard state school; religious education, right?

This would suggest that receiving a religious education has some effect on the quality of the rest of the education you get. How would that work, I wonder? Perhaps God favours faith schools and confers some miraculous benefits on their students.

No. More likely to be a down to earth explanation. Perhaps faith schools tend to be in more affluent neighbourhoods, perhaps because some are private schools they bring up the averages, perhaps because they feel that its OK to select based on religion they also feel its ok to select based on other criteria too.

One statistic: In 2007, in English primary schools, of children in faith schools 11.4% were eligible for free school meals. In state schools that figure was 17.7%

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

It makes you wonder though. Why do faith schools out perform their secular counterparts in Britain?

www.telegraph.co.uk wrote:

An analysis of GCSE results from 2007 reveals pupils in these schools make more progress at every stage of the education system.
Some 51 per cent of pupils in Church of England schools and 52 per cent in Catholic schools gained five or more good GCSEs, including the subjects of English and maths. Scores increased to 63 per cent in Muslim schools but soared to 77 per cent in Jewish secondaries.

Hey look. The Muslims are outperforming the Christians and the Jews are outperforming everyone. So its quite simple really; if we want a good education system in this country, all we need to do is convert to Judaism.:pac:

philologos

I'm not the one arguing to remove faith schools. My point wasn't that Christian schools did better than Jewish ones, my point was that faith schools performed better than the secular counterparts. Therefore there must be something praiseworthy about them, or how they teach.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

my point was that faith schools performed better than the secular counterparts. Therefore there must be something praiseworthy about them, or how they teach.

As two people have pointed out already, schools owned by one religious group or another in the UK tend to be private and therefore fee-paying, so the parents are richer, and the kids have better opportunities, and the class sizes are smaller.

Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money.

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not the one arguing to remove faith schools. My point wasn't that Christian schools did better than Jewish ones, my point was that faith schools performed better than the secular counterparts. Therefore there must be something praiseworthy about them, or how they teach.

No, they are fee paying and so are best compared to secular private schools and not the state schools that have to educate everyone regardless of ability or lack of teaching staff/facilities.

sublunar

perhaps a better comparison would be how irish teenagers, the vast majority of whom have come through a religious, but free, educational system, are hugely outperformed academically by german teenagers, whose education is also free but completely secular.

personally i doubt that having one religion class a week, or whatever is the norm in ireland now, will affect the quality of the other teaching either way. just wanted to point out the pointlessness of such comparisons.

mehfesto

There was a piece on the six-one news about this today. might be repeated at 9.

Essentially it showed how one family has to baptize their child, against their beliefs, just to get him enrolled.

sublunar

would it be viewable somewhere online?

byhookorbycrook

Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of interested parents,non denominational schools aren't allowed in Ireland. The 30 mins teaching religion per day was actually part of lunch time.

rainbow kirby

sublunar wrote: »

would it be viewable somewhere online?

RTÉ player

Pittens

non denominational schools aren't allowed in Ireland.

lol

Pittens

Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money.

The statistics on non-fee paying religious schools and comprehensive schools shows the same difference. Comprehensive schools are a total disaster.

Pittens

No. More likely to be a down to earth explanation. Perhaps faith schools tend to be in more affluent neighbourhoods, perhaps because some are private schools they bring up the averages, perhaps because they feel that its OK to select based on religion they also feel its ok to select based on other criteria too.

Catholics schools in England are concentrated in areas of Catholic migration - the Northe West etc.

And so what if they select. If that proves that selection works, so it does.

The Muslims are outperforming the Christians and the Jews are outperforming everyone. So its quite simple really; if we want a good education system in this country, all we need to do is convert to Judaism.

Lol. You quoted a statistic which destroys the argument that secular schools can even begin to perform like relgious schools and yoiu "proved" your point with inane sarcasm.

Note: the statistics you show prove that religious schools massively outperform secular schools.

Now lets look for the reason. It may not be religion - but it is probably something that religious schools do - discipline, class sizes, school sizes, an academic culture.

If destroying the religious ethos destroys that, then what is the point.

Dades

Pittens wrote: »

Lol. You quoted a statistic which destroys the argument that secular schools can even begin to perform like relgious schools and yoiu "proved" your point with inane sarcasm.

Methinks you misread the post. Lol.

Pittens

perhaps a better comparison would be how irish teenagers, the vast majority of whom have come through a religious, but free, educational system, are hugely outperformed academically by german teenagers, whose education is also free but completely secular.

The Germans stream, so if we were to follow the secular model we should follow their example.

One of the reasons why secular schools tend to fail in the UK is because they come replete with left wing progressive ideologies. Which are designed to despise "competition" etc. And oppose streaming.

i have to laugh at the people who want to get into the "good" Catholic schools, and the poor dears have to throw water on a baby whilst not believing a word of it. Its like UTTER TYRANNY, not.

They want to get into a good school? When the religious schools are secularised we will not need so many - because the different dominations will not need their schools. We will amalgamate the schools in comprehensives.

So they won't have their local good "Catholic" schools to fall back on - they will either have to go to the local crap comprehensive, or go private. We will copy England, not Germany.

I say putting up with some water on a baby is worth £5K a year later on.

Pittens

Methinks you misread the post. Lo[

No I understood that the statistics quoted proved the opposite of the point the poster was opposed to.

Nevyn

The problem is that with the patronage system the patrons end up taking on some of the cost of the schools which if the dept of educ was to take on would mean a bigger cost and they don't want do.

Ickle Magoo

Pittens wrote: »

No I understood that the statistics quoted proved the opposite of the point the poster was opposed to.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the stats show that the best scholastic performance in private faith schools is in direct correlation with the numbers of pupils/schools and has bugger all to do with the faith aspect - which I suspect was very much the point being made...

Dades

Pittens wrote: »

No I understood that the statistics quoted proved the opposite of the point the poster was opposed to.

The post concerned how different faith schools competed against one another so I really don't know what point you think got proved.