How do we remove religious influence from schools.

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not the one arguing to remove faith schools. My point wasn't that Christian schools did better than Jewish ones, my point was that faith schools performed better than the secular counterparts. Therefore there must be something praiseworthy about them, or how they teach.

A member of my family went to the London Oratory.

"Now lets look for the reason. It may not be religion - but it is probably something that religious schools do - discipline, class sizes, school sizes, an academic culture."

You are 100% correct.

dvpower

Pittens wrote: »

Catholics schools in England are concentrated in areas of Catholic migration - the Northe West etc.

And so what if they select. If that proves that selection works, so it does.

Of course selection works.
If your goal is to produce high academic results in a particular school then, yes, use selection, skew your intake and the results will follow.
But if you want to design a school system that caters for all school children that's a different problem.

Pittens wrote: »

Lol. You quoted a statistic which destroys the argument that secular schools can even begin to perform like relgious schools and yoiu "proved" your point with inane sarcasm.

I think that statistic "proved" that Jews get better education than Muslims and Muslims get a better education than Christians. Only an idiot would conclude that Jews are innately smarter than Muslims or Christians. Only an idiot would conclude that secular schools can't perform like religious schools. You must look at the reasons for differences in performance.

Pittens wrote: »

Now lets look for the reason. It may not be religion - but it is probably something that religious schools do - discipline, class sizes, school sizes, an academic culture.

I am interested in looking for the reasons. I agree with you that it's not got to do with religion. So what are the other reasons? (I suggested, and provided evidence for, some above).
Discipline, class sizes, school sizes, academic culture may correlate with faith schools, but it isn't faith that produces these attributes.

Pittens wrote: »

If destroying the religious ethos destroys that, then what is the point.

The evidence (y'know, when you scratch the surface) points to factors other than religious ethos. So why continue with the line that the better performance of religious schools has anything to do with religion?

dvpower

Pittens wrote: »

No I understood that the statistics quoted proved the opposite of the point the poster was opposed to.

You misunderstood.

lynski

wow this thread has gotten off-topic (sorry op if i am stepping on your toes, but i am interested in this)
I am lucky my children will go to an educate together primary school - already confirmed for next yr - but for secondary they will go to the local catholic patronized school.
Dealing with primary first, they will attend a school that does not train for catholic ceremonies so they will not be involved in first communion or confirmation; so what its only 1/2 yrs? people say, but here is the central point of the catholic primary schools problem; it is not only those years. The other classes are involved in the choir, in the masses, in the celebration of the sacrament. Not to mention that the veneration of the whole process that is inherent. There is also the prayers during the day and masses for any special occasions.
Like i said I am lucky my children will not have to go through primary school as some of the few children not involved in all those things.
Secondary school is a different matter, and you come up against the same things, but they are more independent and might be able to deal with it better. Anyway there is a campaign to bring the ET philosophy to second level, so heres hoping.
So how do we make it a reality that all irish children do not have to have more catholicism forced on them? We have to make the 'sheep' wake up, the i dont want little johnny to be different, ah sure we were all raised that way, I want the day out for the little one in the dress, sure what can we do people. These are the ones keeping religion in the classroom, not the religious.
There would be alot fewer little white dresses bought is little Ellie had to go to sunday school or after school to get her communion.

sublunar

lynski wrote: »

We have to make the 'sheep' wake up, the i dont want little johnny to be different, ah sure we were all raised that way, I want the day out for the little one in the dress, sure what can we do people. These are the ones keeping religion in the classroom, not the religious.

very very true. apathy is a powerful force. we need to take a leaf out of the french's book, they protest about everything.

i watched that thing on rte news about the atheist parents having to baptise their children to get them into schools. i love how the report shows what's happening, by interviewing two separate parents about it, then cuts to "the government denies this is happening." :rolleyes: they don't think it's happening, therefore it isn't. toddler logic.

patsman07

Jakkass wrote: »

I also agreed with what Paul Rowe had to say on the matter. I actually personally would have very little difficulty with the Educate Together system as long as they are not teaching children about contentious political and social matters in the classroom.

I teach in an Educate Together school. Would love to know what you meant by this?

strobe

sublunar wrote: »

very very true. apathy is a powerful force. we need to take a leaf out of the french's book, they protest about everything.

But they also cheat a lot and surrender constantly........

-"Let it go Strobe, it's been months, for god's sake!!"

--"Never!!!!"

Blackhorse Slim

patsman07 wrote: »

I teach in an Educate Together school. Would love to know what you meant by this?

I think he means atheism

patsman07

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

I think he means atheism

How is atheism a "contentious political or social issue?"

strobe

patsman07 wrote: »

How is atheism a "contentious political or social issue?"

It is not unless you believe it is. I think Jakkass believes it is? (actually scrath that last bit, I'm sure he'll ellaborate in time). Unless he's going down the whole, evolution is a conspiritorial lie route but I seriously doubt that.

philologos

patsman07 wrote: »

I teach in an Educate Together school. Would love to know what you meant by this?

Let me first say, that I am certainly not blaming Educate Together*. I'm merely saying that there are things to be wary of potentially happening, in any school, but I'm talking in this case about secular schools in particular.

By contentious political and social matters, I mean biasing the children to hold liberal views about family structures, marriage, how faith and religion are developed, that religions are in fact anti-science, and so on. Biasing children towards pro-choice views, and life and death issues including euthanasia, and assisted suicide.

If teaching about such issues remains impartial, It'd be one reason to be very pleased at how a school is operating.

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

I think he means atheism

Read above.

strobe wrote: »

It is not unless you believe it is. I think Jakkass believes it is? (actually scrath that last bit, I'm sure he'll ellaborate in time). Unless he's going down the whole, evolution is a conspiritorial lie route but I seriously doubt that.

I believe that evolution is more than likely part of the explanation as to how God created the world. As such I have no problem with people teaching, and learning about, what is demonstrable about how simplex life formed into the complex life forms we have today, and how it is continuing to do so.

You could call me a theistic evolutionist.

* I particularly wouldn't accuse Educate Together, knowing that they are quite willing to allow churches to meet on their premises on Sundays. One wouldn't be anti-faith to do this.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

By contentious political and social matters, I mean biasing the children to hold liberal views about family structures, marriage, how faith and religion are developed, that religions are in fact anti-science, and so on. Biasing children towards pro-choice views, and life and death issues including euthanasia, and assisted suicide.

I'm just curious. This question isn't to Jakkass in particular so if anyone knows please answer. Do any regular schools teach lessons/classes about family structures, marriage, euthanasia and assisted suicide? I only have one primary school (catholic obviously) and two secondary schools (community schools) worth of personal experience and we certainly weren't thought anything about the above. Our lessons and classes were in, like, Maths, History, Chemistry, French.....stuff like that. We occasionally had speakers come in and talk to us about stuff, but that was always things like, stay away from drugs, and don't bully people that are different ect.

I never remember anyone telling me about how they were thought that a certain veiwpoint on assisted suicide was the right one in thier school either, or even that the topic was ever touched on in normal school day.

I don't think I'm out of school that long that things could have changed so drastically.

Dades

We had a "Civics" class once a week in senior school.

If anything it showed that you can't actually teach civics and that morality is completely subjective (amongst kids who'd been though 10 years of indoctrination). Was interesting though.

strobe

I heard of some schools teaching civics classes. I just presumed it was about your rights as a citizen and how government works. Did it really go into discussions of things like abortion and assisted suicide? Did you think the classes gave a certain slant on things or were biased in any particular direction Dades? Rather than saying "This is what the law says. This is how it effects you as an Irish citizen"

Dades

Our Civics classes went the same way as threads here - leaping from one issue to another. Our teacher was also not the best at maintaining decorum (or caring) so if there was a curriculum I have no idea what it contained.

MikeC101

strobe wrote: »

I'm just curious. This question isn't to Jakkass in particular so if anyone knows please answer. Do any regular schools teach lessons/classes about family structures, marriage, euthanasia and assisted suicide? I only have one primary school (catholic obviously) and two secondary schools (community schools) worth of personal experience and we certainly weren't thought anything about the above.

I had a religion teacher for a few years who would touch on subjects like the above, and always said that the Catholic church stance was the correct one and would go off on tangent about how Jesus loves us very much at any chance. Our religion book had a few pages on other religions - she dismissed them as nonsense. It was a little odd, given that she was only in her twenties - I'd have thought she might have been a little more open minded.

At one point, she left the class alone with a speaker who turned out to be a well known local fundamentalist, who lectured about how evolution was false, everything in the Bible was true (in response to a question about whether Adam and Eves kids engaged in incest, he said they did, but it was ok back then because the gene pool was pure). He also showed some video proving this.

Looking back, he was a strange choice of person to have lecturing a class, to say the least.

I tried to get myself excused from religion class a few times back then, but no support from parents + attitude of "you do believe really, you're just saying it to be cool" meant I got nowhere. Still, at least when the priests called in to take confession, they weren't able to force me to go, so I sat in a classroom with a slightly annoyed / confused religion teacher who acted like they were hurt by my refusal to go to confession. :rolleyes:

5uspect

I vaguely remember Civics class, we sat through a lot of nonsense about good and bad and later how democracy works.

Seemed more like History and Moral Philosoply to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_urWSSZgwU

philologos

Third time always works a charm.

I said, in my original posts, that the idea of secular schooling is fine, provided that certain contentious areas, among these what I described above, are taught in an impartial manner.

I never said that this in actuality takes place in Ireland. I doubt it does.

It's more what to be wary of, and what to guard against.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

Third time always works a charm.

I said, in my original posts, that the idea of secular schooling is fine, provided that certain contentious areas, among these what I described above, are taught in an impartial manner.

I never said that this in actuality takes place in Ireland. I doubt it does.

It's more what to be wary of, and what to guard against.

You feel the same should apply to religious schooling I presume?

patsman07

I was in a Catholic secondary school. Done my leaving in 2001. Our civics was more of biology than politics. But religon was a different story. We "covered" the death penatly, abortion, sex etc. All the contentious issues. Abortion sticks out in my mind the most. We too had a young teacher mid-20s. We were shown poems written from the point of view of a foetus in the womb "Please mammy don't hurt me" etc. And worst of all a picture of an aborted fetus. This was done then we were in junior cert year. At the time I didn't really understand but I remember feeling angry that she was trying to change everyones opinions on these issues. Knowing what I know now i'd have a right go at that teacher if I ever met her out and about.

PDN

patsman07 wrote: »

And worst of all a picture of an aborted fetus. This was done then we were in junior cert year. At the time I didn't really understand but I remember feeling angry that she was trying to change everyones opinions on these issues. Knowing what I know now i'd have a right go at that teacher if I ever met her out and about.

Ah sure, if it's only a 'bunch of cells' then it's no different from the pictures of diseased lungs that they showed us at school to try to stop us smoking.

Dades

Oh please, let's not go down this route...

WanderingSoul

I am in a Catholic secondary school and I must say (as someone who is definitely not Christian) it's not that bad. However I have a sister in 6th class in a Catholic primary school and I am amazed by how much she has been (imo) brainwashed.

I had quite a heated debate with her a couple of weeks ago and I was honestly stunned. From the age of 4/5 they were saying prayers at least 3 times a day, attending school masses and being lectured to by the parish priest. At the age of 6/7 they began learning the 10 commandments and the bible. By the age of 7/8 they were saying a full decade of the rosary each week. So, by the time they were in 6th class (11/12) all they knew was Catholicism. They were never taught about other religions or beliefs, nor were they really given a chance to think about their religion: they were just told it was right and true and scared into believing so because otherwise they "will rot in hell".

She had no idea of what was really in the bible (despite having been first told biblical stories when they were 6/7). They were just taught that Jesus is the savior and Catholicism is the true religion etc. When it was pointed out some of the things that were in the bible (regarding homosexuals etc) she had no idea. Never had she ever been told in school of the theory of evolution, they were taught only of creationism.

The problem with the influence the church has over schools is that they are told a very one-sided view of that religion over and over from before they can really make a decision for themselves until they have no choice but to believe it.

I am so glad I am not in that school.

I think removing religious influence from schools won't happen anytime in the near future because so much of this country is "Catholic". However, if the amount of ET schools or other secular schools rise I will be glad and I think that is the most likely way religious influence in schools will be reduced if not removed.

WanderingSoul

strobe wrote: »

I'm just curious. This question isn't to Jakkass in particular so if anyone knows please answer. Do any regular schools teach lessons/classes about family structures, marriage, euthanasia and assisted suicide? I only have one primary school (catholic obviously) and two secondary schools (community schools) worth of personal experience and we certainly weren't thought anything about the above. Our lessons and classes were in, like, Maths, History, Chemistry, French.....stuff like that. We occasionally had speakers come in and talk to us about stuff, but that was always things like, stay away from drugs, and don't bully people that are different ect.

I never remember anyone telling me about how they were thought that a certain veiwpoint on assisted suicide was the right one in thier school either, or even that the topic was ever touched on in normal school day.

I don't think I'm out of school that long that things could have changed so drastically.

I'm currently in (a Catholic) secondary school. In your school, in 3rd and 5th year we do "morality" within religion. In 3rd year the death penalty is just barely touched upon and as far as I know euthanasia and assisted suicide are covered in 5th year. We do family structures/marriage etc in SPHE in Junior Cycle. Obviously, marriage is also done in religion but I highly doubt family structures is.

Truley

Jakkass wrote: »

By contentious political and social matters, I mean biasing the children to hold liberal views about family structures, marriage, how faith and religion are developed, that religions are in fact anti-science, and so on. Biasing children towards pro-choice views, and life and death issues including euthanasia, and assisted suicide.

Abortion, euthanasia, suicide lol I don't know what primary school you're thinking about :eek:

I can not praise Educate Together schools enough, I was blessed to have attended the second of it's kind in the country and can safely say it made me who I am. Can I just clarify for a few people how they work? ET schools are national schools, they cover the same curriculum as any other national school, the one and only difference is it's apporach to religious education.

We did study religion in our school. It was known as 'core curriculum' back then, I don't know if it is still done like that. Core curriculum was essentially the study of all the major world religions, studied in a very inmpartial way (for example 'Catholics believe this'... as opposed to 'this is what happened.') Often the subject would be adapted to encompass the religious denominations of the particular class. For example we had Mormon and Jehova's witness children in our class and their parents or religious teachers would come in and talk to the class.

Ironically the school placed a very heavy emphasis on festivals and celebrations (unlike alot of Catholic schools at the time did.) We celebrated seasonal festivals such as the harvest and May Day, also 'Winter fair' and 'Spring fair' to keep them all embracing and neutral.

That said, religion wasn't this big bad entity that was forbidden from the classroom. The school did provide specific religious classes where there was a demand for it, on school premises, outside of school hours. While I was there we had a first holy communion and confirmation class, an Islamic class and a couple of protestant sunday school type set ups.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that ET schools are academically inferior. They cover the exact same curriculam as any other national school, and from my experience my classmates excelled academically above any other school in the area. Teachers in ET schools were not supposed to have some sort of liberal left wing bias, they were expected to be impartial, tolerant and to uphold the multi - donominational ethos.

As far as I am concerned test scores meen sweet FA anyway. One thing I can say about ET kids is that they have a knowledge and tolerance for different cultures and ways of life rivalled by no one. Because from a very early age we were made aware that the world is full of different people, with different opinions and ideas, and these ideas were shared and embraced among us in the classroom, not segregated into different rooms. It wasn't until I attended a Catholic secondary school that I really began to appreciate this.

If I had my way all schools in Ireland would follow the Educate Together ethos, because they are accepting of everyone. Even the most bible bashing person in the world could send their children there without a problem, that's the beauty of it. I can't for the life of me imagine why someone would want to segregate children according to religion, it's a terrible idea which seems to be driven by fear of anythign that is different. What kind of 'education' is that to give a young child?

Ickle Magoo

Truley wrote: »

Abortion, euthanasia, suicide lol I don't know what primary school you're thinking about :eek:

I was thinking exactly the same! Can't beat a bit of unjustified hysteria when it comes to ET's!

Truley wrote: »

We did study religion in our school. It was known as 'core curriculum' back then, I don't know if it is still done like that. Core curriculum was essentially the study of all the major world religions, studied in a very inmpartial way (for example 'Catholics believe this'... as opposed to 'this is what happened.') Often the subject would be adapted to encompass the religious denominations of the particular class. For example we had Mormon and Jehova's witness children in our class and their parents or religious teachers would come in and talk to the class.

Yep, same as our ET

Truley wrote: »

That said, religion wasn't this big bad entity that was forbidden from the classroom. The school did provide specific religious classes where there was a demand for it, on school premises, outside of school hours.

*Nods* After school our local ET has Catholic, Protestant and meditation and spirituality classes for all who want to avail...

Truley wrote: »

I don't know where people are getting the idea that ET schools are academically inferior. They cover the exact same curriculam as any other national school, and from my experience my classmates excelled academically above any other school in the area. Teachers in ET schools were not supposed to have some sort of liberal left wing bias, they were expected to be impartial, tolerant and to uphold the multi - donominational ethos.

Our ET is vastly over-subscribed, over 100 applications per class per year - and some years there is only a handful of places once siblings of current pupils are taken into account. It as commonly regarded as one of the best schools in the area - by a long way. The teachers just teach the syllabus, they leave specific religious or moral instructions to the relevant out of hours classes the parents want their child to attend, or by the parents themselves...which is how it should be.

There seems to be a common misconception or ignorance of ET ethos that it's somehow the atheistic alternative to the faith teaching in faith schools, it's not. The clue of the main aim of ET is in the title - treating everyone the same, not pushing any particular agenda. :cool:

philologos

Truley - It appears that you haven't read my posts, in which I clarified my points, 3 times. I also made clear, of the potential bias that could seep in concerning these topics, not that they are actually occurring at the minute here.

Although, in other countries in Europe, such teaching is emerging in secular primary schools.

I also said very explicitly, that I wasn't blaming Educate Together of anything.

Truley

Jakkass wrote: »

Truley - It appears that you haven't read my posts, in which I clarified my points, 3 times. I also made clear, of the potential bias that could seep in concerning these topics, not that they are actually occurring at the minute here.

Although, in other countries in Europe, such teaching is emerging in secular primary schools.

I also said very explicitly, that I wasn't blaming Educate Together of anything.

Ok fine Jackass, I wasn't having a go at you. I just wanted to clarify that ET schools do not operate as secular or anti-religious schools. Their code of practice is composed in a way that is very hostile to religious or political agendas being peddled, liberal or otherwise. In fact it would be next to impossible for a teacher to try an impose any kind of intransigent views on their pupils when the student body is so multi-cultural and egalatarian. Religious schools certainly can not give that guarantee.

In answer to the question, 'how to remove religous influence from schools.' The answer is very simple, remove the students. Because like it or not the world is full of religion and your children are going to enter the real world and have to encounter it every single day. Would you rather they fear or hate what is different, or understand it, even embrace it.

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

Truley - It appears that you haven't read my posts, in which I clarified my points, 3 times. I also made clear, of the potential bias that could seep in concerning these topics, not that they are actually occurring at the minute here.

Although, in other countries in Europe, such teaching is emerging in secular primary schools.

I also said very explicitly, that I wasn't blaming Educate Together of anything.

You are not interested in debate about your religion.

No religion until you are 18, then you can choose, your parents or the state have no right to force this on children.

philologos

Erren Music wrote: »

You are not interested in debate about your religion.

Clarifying a strawman = not interested in discussion / debate?

Erren Music wrote: »

No religion until you are 18, then you can choose, your parents or the state have no right to force this on children.

Are you interested in discussion and or debate on this, or are you laying down the law if you will :pac:

strobe

Erren Music wrote: »

You are not interested in debate about your religion.

No religion until you are 18, then you can choose, your parents or the state have no right to force this on children.

LOL. Welcome back Erren. You're consistant, I'll give ye that.

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

Clarifying a strawman = not interested in discussion / debate?



Are you interested in discussion and or debate on this, or are you laying down the law if you will :pac:

You are incapable of debate.

God is real in your head, children do not believe in god, it is forced onto them.

Why can't you leave kids alone until they reach the voting age.

Erren Music

strobe wrote: »

LOL. Welcome back Erren. You're consistant, I'll give ye that.

I'm the anti PDN Fanny Jackass;)

philologos

Erren Music wrote: »

I'm the anti PDN Fanny Jackass;)

No, you're rohatch.

Slightly more liberal, he insisted on no religion until 21 and that God was just an idea in my head! Very similar indeed. :pac:

Your posts are humorous assertions without substance.

kiffer

Jakkass wrote: »

No, you're rohatch.

Slightly more liberal, he insisted on no religion until 21 and that God was just an idea in my head! Very similar indeed. :pac:

Your posts are humorous assertions without substance.

Not just in your head...

rohatch wrote:

They are just stories handed down over thousands of years.

This is of course true for all un-true religions...

Religion is a delusion. It is a stupid idea for people who are afraid to be responsible for themselves as adults.

Ditto... but clearly not for the true religion...

Irlandese

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Get the Opus Dei heads out of the senior ranks of the Dept of Ed. ?

You think you are safe behind your pathetic attempt to use a nom-de-plume?
We have Opus Dei members with staff who are experts at hacking into miserable
sites like this one and WE WILL DISCOVER YOUR IP ADDRESS and then we will begin to terrorise you.
WE OWN the Dept. Of Education. We own the Government.
We own the tax you pay and we like your little children very much...........

Sandvich

Teach them about religion instead of teaching them religion.

robindch

Erren Music wrote: »

You are incapable of debate.

Pots, kettles.

Please tone down your venting. You're reminding us all of some religious fundies we know and Dades and I would hate to permaban you!

Welcome back, btw

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

No, you're rohatch.

Slightly more liberal, he insisted on no religion until 21 and that God was just an idea in my head! Very similar indeed. :pac:

Your posts are humorous assertions without substance.

Your belief in god is a humorous assertion without substance.

After reading a few thousand of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you spend far too much time on this side of the fence.

I wonder why you do that.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Erren Music

robindch wrote: »

Pots, kettles.

Please tone down your venting. You're reminding us all of some religious fundies we know and Dades and I would hate to permaban you!

Welcome back, btw

Can't guarantee anything, but we will have fun along the way.

Erren Music

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Would you not find it humorous if one of your 40 year old friends told you he honestly believed in santa claus or the tooth fairy.

Erren Music

Sandvich wrote: »

Teach them about religion instead of teaching them religion.

That is it in a nutshell.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Erren Music

Irlandese wrote: »

You think you are safe behind your pathetic attempt to use a nom-de-plume?
We have Opus Dei members with staff who are experts at hacking into miserable
sites like this one and WE WILL DISCOVER YOUR IP ADDRESS and then we will begin to terrorise you.
WE OWN the Dept. Of Education. We own the Government.
We own the tax you pay and we like your little children very much...........

Scary thing is someones been keeping the RCC protected.

Erren Music

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why not, its the same thing.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Erren Music

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Does this offend you?

It sounds completely insane to me, and you would have to be some type of absolute moron to believe this is the truth.

Whatever religion you are you only have a 17% chance of being in the right one (there is no god).

Hows that for odds, and how selfish is it for you to think that yours is the right one and the other 6 billion people are wrong.

Originally Posted by Irlandese

"This is the same faith that believes a cosmic Jew who was his own father by a virgin can enable you to live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from something invisible called your soul that is present because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magical tree." Lovely, I think Steven Spielbarg is the director we want for this one and maybe David Bowie in the lead role??

Zillah

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

More tragic really.

strobe

Zillah wrote: »

More tragic really.

I could only agree. I would feel the same if (to use Erren's example) I knew a 40 year old that still believed in Santa Clause, I wouldn't think it was humurous at all. I would feel really sorry for them.