bonus points for maths

whadabouchasir

Podge_irl wrote: »

Nonsense. They could try simply encouraging people to take it. Tackling the (mistaken imo) view that it is massively difficult and giving careful consideration to how it is taught and certain elements of the course would help.

Just telling people that maths isn't as difficult as people think wouldn't encourage many more to do it at all.You need to offer students some incentive to do it,because imo it was the subject that I had to do the most work for,dispite my love of maths and most others who did HL agreed with me.On the other hand all of my freinds who droppedfrom HL to OL said that there was a huge deifference between the two,in both the amount of work required and the difficulty of the course material.

SantryRed

elarkla wrote: »

There's so much more work involved in higher maths... It deserves more points as it's so hard to do well in! How can you really say that an A in some of the easier subjects (e.g. music or Home Ec - not trying to take from them) is worth the same (therefore as easy to get) as an A in higher maths?

What? Some people find things easier than other. I got 74 in my Maths mock in Higher Level but I think it would be a farce if I received extra points for doing good in it.

Podge_irl

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Just telling people that maths isn't as difficult as people think wouldn't encourage many more to do it at all.You need to offer students some incentive to do it,because imo it was the subject that I had to do the most work for,dispite my love of maths and most others who did HL agreed with me.On the other hand all of my freinds who droppedfrom HL to OL said that there was a huge deifference between the two,in both the amount of work required and the difficulty of the course material.

I obviously don't think it should be as simplistic as just telling people it's not hard, but some sort of coordinated awareness campaign for want of a better word.

I just don't think something as simplistic as giving extra points for it is the way forward. It's formalising the view that it is somehow a much harder subject and I don't see it as a way of attracting more people to do HL maths. The people dropping HL maths are generally in the C range, not the A range, so it's questionable how many extra points they'd get either. It would largely just end up unfairly rewarding those who are excellent at maths.

SarcasticFairy

I get what you're saying about formalising the view that it's difficult, but do you not think many of those C students would keep it up, rather than drop it, knowing that their 60 point C is now worth more than 60 points? An OL A is only going to ever be worth 60 points, so dropping down would mean that would be the maximum you could get, and that's only assuming your paper is practically perfect. It would definitely make making the decision to drop down more difficult, and encourage more people to work at HL.

I do think it gives an unfair advantage to those who are naturally gifted at maths... The only way I can think of to combat that would be to not offer extra points on an A, or something, but that would be utterly retarded, as it'd make a B worth more than an A...

It's difficult, but I don't think a mere campaign will do much. They've been half-arsedly encouraging people to stick with it for years. There definitely needs to be some incentive, at least at the beginning, if they want to up numbers.

whadabouchasir

Podge_irl wrote: »

I obviously don't think it should be as simplistic as just telling people it's not hard, but some sort of coordinated awareness campaign for want of a better word.

I still believe that students need some sort of incentive to do HL maths.Another possibilty might be to put the maths exam near the end of the LC timetable therby giving people more time to study for maths.You aklso mentioned people having a preconcieved idea about it being hard.I think you're right there,but i remember at the beginning of 5th year my maths teacher told us that HL would take an hour of study every night for 2 years.I don't think that any other subject requires this much work,well at least none of the one's i did anyway.In college there is a credits system based on how much work each module requires,I think that something similar should be introduced to the LC to take into account the varying amounts of work each subject requires.Imo bonus points for some subjects would be the best way to go about doing this in the short term anyway.

niamh2709

The reason to give maths more points is to encourage more people to do it as it looks bad on ireland because of the high fail rate. Its not saying its more important just subjects with higher points ie medicine tend to have a maths base to them.

Podge_irl

niamh2709 wrote: »

The reason to give maths more points is to encourage more people to do it as it looks bad on ireland because of the high fail rate. Its not saying its more important just subjects with higher points ie medicine tend to have a maths base to them.

Medicine doesn't really have a maths base to it. Indeed many courses with a large maths basis have quite low points requirements as there isn't as much demand for them.

whadabouchasir wrote:

but i remember at the beginning of 5th year my maths teacher told us that HL would take an hour of study every night for 2 years.I don't think that any other subject requires this much work

Such comments are reasonably worthless though as it's a very subjective thing. I'll readily admit to being an exception here, but I did precisely zero work for maths outside of the classroom because I found it easy. In contrast I put the most effort into French and Irish and didn't get amazing marks in either. I just don't subscribe to the view that maths is inherently harder than the other subjects and I think the reason that so many people need to spend so long working on it has more to do with the poor way it is taught. There is too much emphasis on memorising techniques and repetitive questions and not enough on actual problem solving methods and teaching students to properly analyse questions. The problem is that the latter is much harder to do and there aren't enough good maths teachers out there.

whadabouchasir

Podge_irl wrote: »

Such comments are reasonably worthless though as it's a very subjective thing. I'll readily admit to being an exception here, but I did precisely zero work for maths outside of the classroom because I found it easy. In contrast I put the most effort into French and Irish and didn't get amazing marks in either. I just don't subscribe to the view that maths is inherently harder than the other subjects and I think the reason that so many people need to spend so long working on it has more to do with the poor way it is taught.

Difficulty is a subjective thing but that's just one part of the reason why maths requires more work,another is the length of the course.You have to realise that the aim of the LC student is to get the maximum points possible by doing as little work as possible.So plenty of people do OL maths and do HL in another subject which has a shorter course.Many of these people would be more than capable of doing HL maths but are just put off by the idea of doing more work (and for most students it is more work) for the same amount of points.The only logical conclusion is to award extra points for a subject that requires extra work.I know You'll say that this gives those who are naturally gifted at maths an unfair advantage,but there are in the minority

pathway33

Here it is so

A1 150
A2 145
B1 140
B2 130
B3 120
C1 100
C2 80
C3 70
D1 65
D2 60
D3 55

so we are almost rewarding the hard workers who might get a B1 as much as the A1 genius. The 20 point gaps from C2 to C1 and C1 to B3 should stop people settling for a C3. And there's still a 10 point incentive for those who will scrape a pass. I think it's brilliant

niamh2709

pathway33 wrote: »

Here it is so

A1 150
A2 145
B1 140
B2 130
B3 120
C1 100
C2 80
C3 70
D1 65
D2 60
D3 55

so we are almost rewarding the hard workers who might get a B1 as much as the A1 genius. The 20 point gaps from C2 to C1 and C1 to B3 should stop people settling for a C3. And there's still a 15 point incentive for those who will scrape a pass. I think it's brilliant

Is this actually whats going to happen?

pathway33

niamh2709 wrote: »

Is this actually whats going to happen?

this is just my first draft. I haven't told the minister yet

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Chuchoter

Podge_irl wrote: »

I obviously don't think it should be as simplistic as just telling people it's not hard, but some sort of coordinated awareness campaign for want of a better word.

I just don't think something as simplistic as giving extra points for it is the way forward. It's formalising the view that it is somehow a much harder subject and I don't see it as a way of attracting more people to do HL maths. The people dropping HL maths are generally in the C range, not the A range, so it's questionable how many extra points they'd get either. It would largely just end up unfairly rewarding those who are excellent at maths.

I would disagree. I got an A at HL in my Junior cert, and I'm well capable of getting a B or even an A in the leaving if I work at it, but I have no qualms dropping it if it takes up too much time. The course is much longer and much harder than other courses, even teachers will tell you that, so they have two choices:make it worth the extra effort or make it easier/shorter. I want to do medicine and I'm taking Physics, I'm only doing HL maths for the sake of my pride and nothing else.

However, a much larger number of girls took higher-level Irish (9,716) than took higher-level maths (3,739).

This is a little bit off topic, but interestingly enough do you think this has anything to do with the perception (often even by schools) that girls are bad at maths and are not taking it because everyone is telling them this?

Ruski

I wouldn't see much of a point. When the maths was more difficult, nearly impossible by today's LC Maths standard. maybe 20 years, ago they did have an extra 20 points for an A1. Strand/Project maths doesn't look difficult at all. I wouldn't see any point in awarding extra points for something that is made a lot easier.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

SarahOT

Does anyone agree with me that it is not fair at all that they are just overlooking the present Leaving Certificate students of 2011?
I don't think it is fair or right, and if you agree with me then like this page and support us. We could do something about this!

LETS FIGHT THIS AND WIN!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition-to-get-25-extra-points-for-Higher-Level-Maths-Leaving-Cert-2011/114016768663224?v=app_2373072738&ref=ts#!/pages/Petition-to-get-25-extra-points-for-Higher-Level-Maths-Leaving-Cert-2011/114016768663224?v=wall

SarahOT

spurious wrote: »

'In my day' there were bonus points for Honours Maths. If I recall correctly there were 5 points for a HL A and 7 points for a Maths HL A. It certainly made people think a bit before dropping to pass at the first sign of difficulty.

They would be unlikely to introduce a change for this year's exam - it would not be fair at this late stage.

It would!
I just don't think it's fair that we're putting the amount of work in that next years Leaving Certificate students would and we don't get the benefits too. It's so frustrating.
It was people's choice to drop down.

Ficheall

Whatever about bringing in extra points for HL for the old curriculum, with this new "project maths" bull****, it'd be completely unfair. You'd have far more people with less maths coming into college, where a basic previous knowledge is assumed. So while that might be good for "statistics", it would make a ****e of many maths-based courses.

DaveMur1

SarahOT wrote: »

Does anyone agree with me that it is not fair at all that they are just overlooking the present Leaving Certificate students of 2011?
I don't think it is fair or right, and if you agree with me then like this page and support us. We could do something about this!

Think about it this way,we're the first year thats going to get to pay these ridiculous new fee's!

Yay this country manages to completely F*** us over again!!!!!!!

confusticated

I really don't think it's fair to introduce bonus points for maths...but since the only other solution being proposed is to make the course easier, I reckon it'd be best to leave it as it is. If they make it easier it'll just mean a massively increased workload in college for anyone doing a maths-related degree, which are generally hard enough anyway!

I know a lot of people say that it takes an awful lot of time and that, but I always found accounting and English took much longer, and I hadn't any problems with either.

coffeelover

How much of the paper is changing due to project maths?

MathsManiac

coffeelover wrote: »

How much of the paper is changing due to project maths?

In 2011: none of it
In 2012:
- At higher level: all of paper 2
- At ordinary level: all of paper 2 except Q1
- At foundation level: all of paper 2 except Q1&2.
Some more stuff changes in 2013, and then by 2014, the whole thing has changed.

coffeelover

In 2011: none of it
In 2012:
- At higher level: all of paper 2
- At ordinary level: all of paper 2 except Q1
- At foundation level: all of paper 2 except Q1&2.
Some more stuff changes in 2013, and then by 2014, the whole thing has changed.

Thank you soo much .. So for honours all of paper 2 is changed so does that mean that it's easier than the old course in 2012?

MathsManiac

coffeelover wrote: »

Thank you soo much .. So for honours all of paper 2 is changed so does that mean that it's easier than the old course in 2012?

That's a matter of some debate. It's definitely different. My view is that it is not easier. I think that if it's taught well, the moderate students, who might have been humming and hawing about dropping to Ordinary on the old course, should be well able to stick with it and get their Ds and Cs. The As will still be a real challenge. But if the teacher doesn't know their stuff and doesn't manage to engage students, develop understanding, flexibility, and problem-solving skills, these students could be in trouble.

I think you should be looking forward to it. I don't know what your maths classes are currently like, but this new material should have you engaging with real-life statistics in a meaningful way, gathering, analysing and interpreting real data, becoming a more critical consumer of information, learning what kinds of questions you should ask yourself when people try to use stats to convince you of something, etc. When you're doing trigonometry, hopefully you'll also spend a bit of time out in the fresh air, figuring out how far away or how high distant objects are and that kind of stuff, and arguing with your friends about whose method is going to be more accurate, realising that ideas that seem good in theory, don't always work out so neatly in practice, etc. instead of plodding through a textbook the whole time. (All dependent on how your teacher decides to do it, of course!)

If you want some other people's views, see this thread in the maths forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055768798

coffeelover

That's a matter of some debate. It's definitely different. My view is that it is not easier. I think that if it's taught well, the moderate students, who might have been humming and hawing about dropping to Ordinary on the old course, should be well able to stick with it and get their Ds and Cs. The As will still be a real challenge. But if the teacher doesn't know their stuff and doesn't manage to engage students, develop understanding, flexibility, and problem-solving skills, these students could be in trouble.

I think you should be looking forward to it. I don't know what your maths classes are currently like, but this new material should have you engaging with real-life statistics in a meaningful way, gathering, analysing and interpreting real data, becoming a more critical consumer of information, learning what kinds of questions you should ask yourself when people try to use stats to convince you of something, etc. When you're doing trigonometry, hopefully you'll also spend a bit of time out in the fresh air, figuring out how far away or how high distant objects are and that kind of stuff, and arguing with your friends about whose method is going to be more accurate, realising that ideas that seem good in theory, don't always work out so neatly in practice, etc. instead of plodding through a textbook the whole time. (All dependent on how your teacher decides to do it, of course!)

If you want some other people's views, see this thread in the maths forum:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055768798

Thank you for that thread in the maths forum it has really helped .. You see I'm in 5th year and I dropped to pass a month ago and I don't know whether to go back to honours or not .. The honours teacher isn't great to be honest. The one teaching pass is waaay better. But I could get grinds if i changed..