Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

pinksoir

Jakkass wrote: »

It's very much been warped. The title of the thread is also hyperbole. To suggest that people are "forcing" people to believe. In reality, that isn't the case at all. People have the legal right to believe whatever they wish.

I don't honestly see the point of this discussion, apart from to attempt to guilt-trip parents into stopping telling their children about their faith. That's probably not going to happen, it's normative, and it certainly isn't forcing from what I've seen.

The only reason I can think of as to why atheists would really oppose people learning about Christianity at home, is that they don't like Christianity and would prefer that it ended.

In that case, it's just about being honest enough to say it, as I'd honestly prefer if people regained a relationship with God.

Again, it's not about someone teaching their kids 'about' Christianity, but teaching that Christianity is the truth, the only truth, while maintaining that they hope that their kids will reach the conclusion of Christianity's veracity of their own free will and through rational assessment.

Kids don't critically assess ANYTHING. They just except what their parents tell them. It's true because mum and dad say so. Not only that, but what we learn as children stays with us forever. It's why the vast (vast) majority of people stay with the same religion as their parents. It's why you have whole families of Arsenal supporters. It's why racist parents raise racist kids.

Obviously you can't raise kids in the western world without teaching them 'about' Christianity. But it is completely separate from teaching them that it is true from a young age, and then expecting them to be able to appraise it later in life. For the most part, the watered down Christianity most kids are taught is innocuous, but when you get to indoctrination of kids it is a different matter entirely. And I think that is the point of the thread. It is about moulding kids into what you want them to be, rather than letting them choose at the stage of adulthood. And that is what could be seen as selfish. You are creating heavy biases in a future adult.

iUseVi

Jakkass wrote: »

The only reason I can think of as to why atheists would really oppose people learning about Christianity at home, is that they don't like Christianity and would prefer that it ended.

In that case, it's just about being honest enough to say it, as I'd honestly prefer if people regained a relationship with God.

Well I think I and others have made some very good points why such teaching tends to limit your child to one world-view, and I haven't seen anyone hiding the fact that they don't like this. But if you want to ignore them all please go ahead.

sublunar

do the mods end threads when they think they've played out or do they just keep going...?

there seems to be a consensus among the atheists that religious indoctrination of children is unfair at best, child abuse at worst, but that there's no real way that it can ever be prevented so it's best just to tackle the involvement of religion in schools and state affairs and so on.

meanwhile, the religious believers maintain that parents should be free to do what they want, and that they're not doing any harm.

iUseVi

JimiTime wrote: »

Yeah, I can't help but think, 'It saddens me' or 'its child abuse' etc are actually not genuine feelings. I suppose the folk who say it should know if they're being honest or not.

I've already said that the whole thing is a spectrum and every case is different. But I am completely honest in saying it does sadden me to think of other children growing up the way I did. And you'll just have to take my word for that.

Continuing with the honesty theme, my first reaction to Christianity being taught to children is most probably a knee-jerk reaction due to the stuff I went through. So when I argue against Christianity being taught, I have very vivid mental images of what should be avoided. Maybe I just find it hard to imagine more mild and benign situations and that flavours my thinking.

But disingenuous is one thing I'm not being.

sublunar

JimiTime wrote: »

Yeah, I can't help but think, 'It saddens me' or 'its child abuse' etc are actually not genuine feelings. I suppose the folk who say it should know if they're being honest or not.

this poster is being honest, i assure you. if i hadn't witnessed first-hand the emotional turmoil that a religious upbringing causes people, i wouldn't give two hoots about parents brainwashing their kids.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Yeah, I can't help but think, 'It saddens me' or 'its child abuse' etc are actually not genuine feelings. I suppose the folk who say it should know if they're being honest or not.

It is only child abuse if it abuses the child (ie puts them in a heightened sense of fear or dread). It is perfectly possible to teach your children about Christianity without doing that, just leave out the bits about hell and stuff or find a "nice" way of teaching it (haven't seen one yet but it might be possible). And it is perfectly possible to do that with things other than Christianity.

But this is just smoke screen for the actual point here, that children have a strong tendency to accept unquestioningly what they are told by the parents.

This fact is simply being ignored by the religious posters here who want to believe that they can teach their children about Christianity yet their children will still maintain a critical assessment of Christianity and choose it on their own without the parents teaching influencing them subconsciously to think that Christianity is true.

Having cake and eat it springs to mind. Sorry it simply doesn't work like that, people need to get over it.

If I wanted to get all anti-theist I would say it is a pretty good example of theists refusing to accept reality because it doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of how things should be based on what their religious outlook. I don't really care anymore about the issue of whether you should or should not teach your children religion at a young age, a far more interesting and worrying sight here is people simply dismissing what they find displeasing to their religious outlook, despite all evidence to the contrary.

iUseVi

sublunar wrote: »

this poster is being honest, i assure you. if i hadn't witnessed first-hand the emotional turmoil that a religious upbringing causes people, i wouldn't give two hoots about parents brainwashing their kids.

+1

This is the only reason I give a damn (well the main reason). And people may trivialise these cases and say "oh, that's not the norm!", but its more common than you think and every single child that can be spared similar to what I went though - that is a Good Thing™ in my books.

sublunar

Wicknight wrote: »

It is only child abuse if it abuses the child (ie puts them in a heightened sense of fear or dread). It is perfectly possible to teach your children about Christianity without doing that.

the UN convention on the rights of the child states that children have the right to be free of emotional and psychological abuse. the christian bible is literally brimming over with teachings that would cause both of these.

if one were to cherry-pick the pretty "jesus says be nice to people, okay?" parts and ignore the other few hundred pages, then there's little danger of that. but raising a child as a by-the-book catholic, not á la carte, and teaching them all the bigotry and sado-masochism that's part and parcel of it, would constitute abuse.

pinksoir

I honestly think that the problem here stems from the fact that while someone like me would maintain that there is no one 'true' world view, that all ideologies have their pro's and con's, that each are equally valid at the end of the day (subjectively of course), someone like Jakkass (honestly?) believes that his particular world view is the 'true' one, and that teaching his kids that world view is the most compassionate thing he can do.

I would maintain that there is no one objectively correct world view, but rather that some work for some people, others work for others. There is no common ground. I am not arguing in favour of one particular world view, Islam for example. In that case we could at least debate the relative merits of each. But arguing on the basis of no objectively correct world view against someone who assumes the truth of their own particular world view will never achieve anything, I fear.

Zombrex

sublunar wrote: »

the UN convention on the rights of the child states that children have the right to be free of emotional and psychological abuse. the christian bible is literally brimming over with teachings that would cause both of these.

Which is why an awful lot of Christians don't teach their young children the entire Bible.

Are you suggesting it is necessary to teach the entire Bible to teach your children about Christianity? My grandmother gave me a 6 page pop up book that had Jesus prancing around with sheep, it didn't even have the crucification just the resurrection and mentioned nothing about why Jesus was saving us, just that he was. I can't see this as causing emotional or mental abuse to a child.

On the other hand the JW children I knew is school were practically emotional zombies because they had all this wonderful fire and brimstone thrown at them day in and day out. One child, a small meek some what pathetic child two years behind me, would just start sobbing from time to time in class because he was in such a constant state of terror at the idea of sin and God's wrath and punishment. That most certainly is abuse.

The point is if we simply throw around the term abuse at any hint of religious teaching we are being as silly as the theists who flat out refuse to believe that anything in their wonderful religion could be harmful for children to be exposed to (as these JW parents did)

Abuse is abuse. It is what it is. Is the child being abused? Yes? Then it is abuse.

We lessen that by branding it around inappropriately or applying it to situations where it isn't abuse, just as theists lessen that by ignore it where it happens.

iUseVi

pinksoir wrote: »

I honestly think that the problem here stems from the fact that while someone like me would maintain that there is no one 'true' world view, that all ideologies have their pro's and con's, that each are equally valid at the end of the day, someone like Jakkass (honestly?) believes that his particular world view is the 'true' one, and that teaching his kids that world view is the most compassionate thing he can do.

I would maintain that there is no one objectively correct world view, but rather that some work for some people, others work for others. There is no common ground. I am not arguing in favour of one particular world view, Islam for example. In that case we could at least debate the relative merits of each. But arguing on the basis of no objectively correct world view against someone who assumes the truth of their own particular world view will never achieve anything, I fear.

Yup, pretty much going around in circles now. Enjoyable debate though.

Its a bit like discussing the best way to spend NASA's budget with someone who doesn't think man has been to the moon. (And I can say man without being sexist since unfortunately no women have been to the moon. :P)

sublunar

emotional and psychological abuse is very real. gay teenagers killing themselves because they think god hates them is abuse. no one has hit them or even touched them, but making them believe that is abuse.

simply telling kids the nice stories, like you describe, isn't. which i said in my previous post.

but just telling kids the nice stories isn't "proper" catholicism. i'm going by what the vatican, the head of the catholic faith, would deem "proper" - anything else is people's own versions which are very diluted and aren't catholicism in the strict sense.

no one has said that á la carte religion is damaging, but a lot of children in ireland aren't brought up in the á la carte way, they get the whole fire and brimstone stuff and it can damage their lives in very real ways.

sublunar

iUseVi wrote: »

Its a bit like discussing the best way to spend NASA's budget with someone who doesn't think man has been to the moon.

hahahahaha! brilliant. i'm going to use that.

pinksoir

iUseVi wrote: »

Yup, pretty much going around in circles now. Enjoyable debate though.

Its a bit like discussing the best way to spend NASA's budget with someone who doesn't think man has been to the moon. (And I can say man without being sexist since unfortunately no women have been to the moon. :P)

It is enjoyable. Like that good sort of pain...

grainne01

You definitely have a great point. I myself am a child, 15 years old to be exact. My parents are Catholic and raised me that way. In school, our religion classes are just about the Catholic religion. My personal religious beliefs are, well, non existent to be honest. I don't believe in my religion at all, much to my parent's disaproval.. But its what I think. I would love to know about other religions, its definitely something that interests me. I have had the thought before that I just wish in religion class, they would teach us about DIFFERENT religions so that we can actually choose what we want to believe in. I mean, why should I believe the one Catholic religion just because my parents tell me to? When I clearly know NOTHING about any other religion? Its stupid. I would love to know about other religions because who knows, their might just be one that I would have alot of faith in, but because my parents and school have only ever said anything about the Catholic religion, I can't. Its stupid to me. It would make SO much more sense if they taught us about most religions and then we could actually decided for OURSELVES which one means the most to us and which one makes the most sense to us. My mind is not the same as my parent's minds. While they may believe in the Catholic religion.. my mind just doesn't, and I don't want to go and say I have no faith in religions when I know nothing about any other one. It saddens me because I know I'll probably never actually get the chance to be taught about them now. I could do research..but its not the same as having somebody there to explain it to you. It frustrates me that schools don't teach it like this, if they did, not only would it be better for everybody to be aware of other people's beliefs, but it would make so much more sense.

sublunar

how marvellous, a child! tell us grainne, do you see your parents' choosing to send you to a catholic school as selfish? your answer may clear up this thread.

fascinating to hear that point of view. if you're bothered, it would be worth your while checking out educate together schools and writing to the minister for education explaining why you feel the catholic education you're receiving doesn't meet your educational needs.

JimiTime

sublunar wrote: »

how marvellous, a child! tell us grainne, do you see your parents' choosing to send you to a catholic school as selfish? your answer may clear up this thread.

fascinating to hear that point of view. if you're bothered, it would be worth your while checking out educate together schools and writing to the minister for education explaining why you feel the catholic education you're receiving doesn't meet your educational needs.

It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

JimiTime

sublunar wrote: »

this poster is being honest, i assure you. if i hadn't witnessed first-hand the emotional turmoil that a religious upbringing causes people, i wouldn't give two hoots about parents brainwashing their kids.

iUseVi wrote: »

I've already said that the whole thing is a spectrum and every case is different. But I am completely honest in saying it does sadden me to think of other children growing up the way I did. And you'll just have to take my word for that.

Continuing with the honesty theme, my first reaction to Christianity being taught to children is most probably a knee-jerk reaction due to the stuff I went through. So when I argue against Christianity being taught, I have very vivid mental images of what should be avoided. Maybe I just find it hard to imagine more mild and benign situations and that flavours my thinking.

But disingenuous is one thing I'm not being.

Cheers guys, that explains alot.

cypharius

JimiTime wrote: »

It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

That assumes that the child is smart enough to think for themselves.

iUseVi

cypharius wrote: »

That assumes that the child is smart enough to think for themselves.

Yeah that makes a difference. I think some are more resistant to brainwashing than others, and intelligence is a factor.

iUseVi

JimiTime wrote: »

Cheers guys, that explains alot.

Glad to help. From what I've read of your recent posts, you seem to take a more moderate view of hell than the standard line, so there's hope for you yet. :P I don't know what your childhood was like, or if you care to share, but I'm sure you can imagine that for many young children the standard view of hell is quite terrifying. It's these sort of aspects that would tempt me to use words like "abuse".

Dades

sublunar wrote: »

do the mods end threads when they think they've played out or do they just keep going...?

The latter. Unless there's an outbreak of handbags.

mikhail

cypharius wrote: »

That assumes that the child is smart enough to think for themselves.

And that one example is sufficient proof of the general condition.

Ickle Magoo

JimiTime wrote: »

It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

Go onto the wedding forum and check out the threads regarding people who don't really want a church wedding but don't want to fall out with family, in the parenting forum from people who don't want to get their kids christened but are scared their parents will never talk to them again, PI with young people scared to broach the subject of their own feelings about belief with those closest to them for fear of being thrown out or never spoken to again. Over the years they come up with alarming regularity.

If it was all stories of enlightened parents delighted their kids are exploring their spiritual options then I doubt this thread would even exist, unfortunately there appears to be an awful lot of people who place their own beliefs in higher regard than those of their nearest and dearest - and that's definitely an issue, especially for those on the receiving end.

Nevyn

Parents can do what they want, let them teach and be a shining example of thier religious and spiritual belives at home and raise thier children accordingly and take thier children to be a part of thier relgious community. No problem with that but when you have teachers doing that on the behalf of parents who aren't arsed, thats something which needs to be stopped.

Dades

Thaedydal wrote: »

No problem with that but when you have teachers doing that on the behalf of parents who aren't arsed, thats something which needs to be stopped.

That's my big beef with the system.

I stated at the outset in this thread I have no real issue with parents imparting their beliefs on their kids - it's the ones that 'outsource' and never give it a second thought that really piss me off as it they'd be the first on their high horses if someone suggested removing religion from classrooms.

Erren Music

Some posters have an amazing ability to produce quantity over quality every time, and this is repeated in all the threads they post on, all their posts in this thread could have been condensed into 2 paragraphs.

i will buy a beer for anyone who condenses it the best.

JimiTime wrote: »

Christians tend to evangelise, and share the good news of Christ though. A true relationship with God is not coerced, so parents are free to choose to accept or reject the message themselves and in turn, those they are guardians of.

Seriously, this is the best you can come up with. This is A+A.

sublunar wrote: »

agreed. if religious folk truly wanted their offspring to find the "truth", as they see it, by themselves, they'd wait until they hit 18 to hand them a bible.

Well said.

sublunar wrote: »

all the answers are there, and god will smite you .

god loves you, out of his top 10 list of personal hate's, calling him names is worse than murder, says it all.

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe all these arguements are simply treating symptoms and not the root. I.E. You have no idea what having a relationship with God is.

We do, it's a delusion.
religion = cult
unable to see the reality that believing in an unacountable book and basing your life on it is madness.

Jakkass wrote: »

Even the word "indoctrination" is mere sensationalism. It's evident that nobody actually believes it is child abuse, because if they did, they would deem it worthy of reporting to higher authorities.

Well judging by what those higher authorities have done with the reports in the current situation!

Jakkass wrote: »

Indoctrination would seem to me to be drilling something into someones head repeatedly for several hours a day by memorisation without question. .... but the term is inaccurate when describing the average education that people get about Christianity.

Jakkass wrote: »

For several hours repeatedly? Drilling it into the skull?

Brilliant, I was brought up catholic.

Went to mass at least 60 times a year from age 2 to 11. Thats over 500 repetitions. The words are still in my brain.

Jakkass wrote: »

A few definitions:
"teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically "

Guilty

"Indoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

Guilty

Definition stands and is valid.

Jakkass wrote: »

Cutting to the core. Yes, I agree with you here. I'm personally skeptical of infant baptism.

Great. Baptism at 18 then.

sublunar wrote: »

i'd like to see religious indoctrination acknowledged as the psychological and emotional abuse that it is, but i know it never will be as how could it ever be enforced? too orwellian to imagine...

Fully in agreement with you, well said

Jakkass wrote: »

Christians are very open to allowing their children the freedom to ask these questions. I have yet to see the unquestioning, uncritical side in this.

That is just not true.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm basing my viewpoint particularly on the over three years since I consciously decided that Christianity was reasonable.

How did you decide that.

iUseVi wrote: »

Case A: People tell their children Santa exists and flies around the world in one night to deliver gifts to them - this is believed by millions.

Case B: People tell their children that God exists and Jesus had to die to forgive their "sins".

Why do you think that in case B children will really be able to distinguish the truth, when we all know from case A that they are gullible as hell.

The same problem occurs today in our primary schools. Our children are given lessons in 93% of all our primary schools about a fictional character and his crazy father as if it is FACTUAL.

philologos

rohatch?

In all seriousness Erren Music, you've effectively made up what you are going to say before I've even said anything at all. Your response to elements of my posts on this thread, aren't really that open to question.

You've made the predictable claim that Christianity is "fiction" without any reason for doing so, claiming that things I have posted are "not true" without any reason, claiming that believing the Bible and living ones life by it is madness again without any reason.

All you're doing is dogmatising without giving any reason for what you are saying. Whereas many of the others, namely Wicknight, iUseVi, Dades, robindch, and Ickle Magoo amongst any others I've left out have actually contributed some interesting points.

dvpower

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Go onto the wedding forum and check out the threads regarding people who don't really want a church wedding but don't want to fall out with family, in the parenting forum from people who don't want to get their kids christened but are scared their parents will never talk to them again, PI with young people scared to broach the subject of their own feelings about belief with those closest to them for fear of being thrown out or never spoken to again. Over the years they come up with alarming regularity.

If it was all stories of enlightened parents delighted their kids are exploring their spiritual options then I doubt this thread would even exist, unfortunately there appears to be an awful lot of people who place their own beliefs in higher regard than those of their nearest and dearest - and that's definitely an issue, especially for those on the receiving end.

Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

Erren Music

Jakkass wrote: »

The only reason I can think of as to why atheists would really oppose people learning about Christianity at home, is that they don't like Christianity and would prefer that it ended.

We do not like it because it is fiction.

grainne01 wrote: »

In school, our religion classes are just about the Catholic religion. My personal religious beliefs are, well, non existent to be honest. I don't believe in my religion at all, much to my parent's disaproval.

It is so refreshingly wonderful to hear this.

I hope you question the priests about any parts that make no sense, remember you can ask them anything you want

grainne01 wrote: »

why should I believe the one Catholic religion just because my parents tell me to? When I clearly know NOTHING about any other religion? Its stupid.

Jackass this is what you want to do to your future children.

JimiTime wrote: »

It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

I think you are a bit too optimistic there. It lends no weight to jackass. It just portrays clearly what a waste of time religion is.

Jakkass wrote: »

All you're doing is dogmatising without giving any reason for what you are saying. Whereas many of the others, namely Wicknight, iUseVi, Dades, robindch, and Ickle Magoo amongst any others I've left out have actually contributed some interesting points.

Ah yes, the exact same points that requires you to post over 30 posts in a thread without actually saying anything of value ... as usual.

JimiTime

iUseVi wrote: »

Glad to help. From what I've read of your recent posts, you seem to take a more moderate view of hell than the standard line, so there's hope for you yet. :P I don't know what your childhood was like, or if you care to share, but I'm sure you can imagine that for many young children the standard view of hell is quite terrifying. It's these sort of aspects that would tempt me to use words like "abuse".

Hell was never a concept taught to me by my parents tbh. As far as school goes, I can't recall being taught about it. I can say for certain though, there was little emphasis put on the concept. Thats my particular experience. Also, as far as my 'moderate view of hell' goes, I'd like to be clear that this does not originate from an 'a-la-carte' position but rather a studious one. I know you didn't accuse me of that, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Ickle Magoo

dvpower wrote: »

Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

I can't speak from experience having been fortunate enough never to have to deal with religious parents/family but I've been witness to a few very religious parents who wept, cried, threatened and generally made life pretty unpleasant when anyone tried to broach the subject of not attending mass or getting kids christened or not having a church wedding. It's easy when you have easy going parents who don't really bother about what their kids do as long as they are happy & wholesome but if the option is going along with things or making someone you love unhappy or falling out with family or generally being leaned on by people you care about then it's easy to cave in to peer (familial?) pressure.

In the not so distant past families merrily sent daughters away to laundries or over to the UK rather than stand by them and stuff what the priest/neighbours think. It's terrifying how much power some people give religion, even over their own flesh and blood over the most ridiculous and irrational things.

JimiTime

dvpower wrote: »

Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

Have to say, the more I see that kind of thing, the more I am thankful for my own upbringing. I don't recall any questions being taboo, or swept under the carpet or any feeling of pressure about having to follow their intellectual or spiritual path. I think the whole issue is about wise parenting rather than any specifics of what is being taught and tbh, I think that has come out in this thread.

Erren Music

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

In the not so distant past families merrily sent daughters away to laundries or over to the UK rather than stand by them and stuff what the priest/neighbours think. It's terrifying how much power some people give religion, even over their own flesh and blood over the most ridiculous and irrational things.

Those people have to live with the fact that they allowed the church to sell their grandchildren to high bidders. If you were that child how would you feel about scum like that when you found out the truth.

dvpower wrote: »

Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

I have a 38 year old divorced mate, his GF has a kid and is unmarried and his parents tried pressuring him to dump her because she has a kid out of wedlock.

It is crazy to think that it's 2010 and people like this still exist.

JimiTime

Erren Music wrote: »

I think you are a bit too optimistic there. It lends no weight to jackass. It just portrays clearly what a waste of time religion is.

Maybe optimism reduces our negativity.

Anyway, you don't seem to appreciate any input from non-atheists, so I'll leave ye to it.

Erren Music

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe optimism reduces our negativity.

....which does not affect whether something is true or not.

JimiTime wrote: »

Anyway, you don't seem to appreciate any input from non-atheists, so I'll leave ye to it.

Only because you are all indoctrinated and delusional, I understand it is not your fault, but unfortunately you have a cognative issue. How can I take anything you lot say with any seriousness when you believe what you do. BTW this is the A+A forum, yours is over the fence.

JimiTime

Erren Music wrote: »

....which does not affect whether something is true or not.



Only because you are all indoctrinated and delusional, I understand it is not your fault, but unfortunately you have a cognative issue. How can I take anything you lot say with any seriousness when you believe what you do. BTW this is the A+A forum, yours is over the fence.

good man.

dvpower

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I can't speak from experience having been fortunate enough never to have to deal with religious parents/family but I've been witness to a few very religious parents who wept, cried, threatened and generally made life pretty unpleasant when anyone tried to broach the subject of not attending mass or getting kids christened or not having a church wedding. It's easy when you have easy going parents who don't really bother about what their kids do as long as they are happy & wholesome but if the option is going along with things or making someone you love unhappy or falling out with family or generally being leaned on by people you care about then it's easy to cave in to peer (familial?) pressure.
(

I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?

Ickle Magoo

dvpower wrote: »

I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?

Well, I think so, yes...but then my parents encouraged discussions on theology/atheism/spirituality/etc, I've never felt the need to hide who I am from them - they even stated that having a faith was deeply personal and they would no more tell me what religion to follow than they would tell me what political party to vote for - but other people have had very different upbringings.

Surely the only reason someone wouldn't want to mention they are not religious would be so as not to upset a parent or loved one and the fact it would upset the parent and cause stress or relationship issues and - more importantly - that it has obviously been stressed that that would be the case, is the crux of the issue being discussed.

strobe

dvpower wrote: »

I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?

For someone in thier 30's, thier parents might be quite old, i.e not long for this world. Who would it possibly benefit for them to suddenly spring it on thier parents that they believe God doesn't exist, heaven is a pipe dream, and they believe everything thier mam and dad hold dear is bullsh1t? Whatever about apposing religion or personally thinking it's crap. Why possibly introduce one more thing that may instigate another thing you disagree with your parents about? What will it accomplish that will improve anyones life in anyway. No good can come of this in some cases. Everyones situation is different and I think you possibly view it as a lot simpler than it really is....

dvpower

strobe wrote: »

For someone in thier 30's, thier parents might be quite old, i.e not long for this world. Who would it possibly benefit for them to suddenly spring it on thier parents that they believe God doesn't exist, heaven is a pipe dream, and they believe everything thier mam and dad hold dear is bullsh1t? Whatever about apposing religion or personally thinking it's crap. Why possibly introduce one more thing that may instigate another thing you disagree with your parents about? What will it accomplish that will improve anyones life in anyway. No good can come of this in some cases. Everyones situation is different and I think you possibly view it as a lot simpler than it really is....

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, I think so, yes...but then my parents encouraged discussions on theology/atheism/spirituality/etc, I've never felt the need to hide who I am from them - they even stated that having a faith was deeply personal and they would no more tell me what religion to follow than they would tell me what political party to vote for - but other people have had very different upbringings.

Surely the only reason someone wouldn't want to mention they are not religious would be so as not to upset a parent or loved one and the fact it would upset the parent and cause stress or relationship issues and - more importantly - that it has obviously been stressed that that would be the case, is the crux of the issue being discussed.

I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

strobe

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

It's not about wrapping them in cotton wool. I don't feel the need to tell my parents that I take XTC quite often, I don't feel the need to tell them that I have sex with random girls I meet when I'm out and I don't feel the need to tell one of them that I think Christianity is bullsh1t.

I've had my problems with them throughout my life, I don't want to add to them. One of my parents feels very strongly that when he dies he will go to heaven and when I die I will meet up with him there. It gives him comfort. I'll say it again, no good would come from me chalenging him about that.

So why would I do it? How would that make either of our lives better. How would that make our relationship better? Why?

dvpower

strobe wrote: »

It's not about wrapping them in cotton wool. I don't feel the need to tell my parents that I take XTC quite often, I don't feel the need to tell them that I have sex with random girls I meet when I'm out and I don't feel the need to tell one of them that I think Christianity is bullsh1t.

I've had my problems with them throughout my life, I don't want to add to them. One of my parents feels very strongly that when he dies he will go to heaven and when I die I will meet up with him there. It gives him comfort. I'll say it again, no good would come from me chalenging him about that.

So why would I do it? How would that make either of our lives better. How would that make our relationship better? Why?

I guess if its just a little white lie then its probably better to say nothing. I wonder how its going to play out, say, when you have kids of your own. To sustain the lie aren't you going to have to bring them along to get baptised and raise them as Christians?

Ickle Magoo

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

I've stated several times now that I don't have this issue, so I'm not sure why you insist on the personalising of the question in response to my post? I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion. As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.

I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without. If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?

dvpower

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I've stated several times now that I don't have this issue, so I'm not sure why you insist on the personalising of the question in response to my post?

I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion.

It would be. I didn't.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.

I wouldn't be in favour of doing anything that would cause undue stress to a parent. If someone has a familial relationship that is so brittle that it would be damaged by simply sharing ones views, then maybe its better not to share those views.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without.

Whose advocating shouting atheism from the rooftops? I'm advocating being open. I think that it is the best route unless there are good reasons to hide ones views. But I wonder if hiding ones atheism is sustainable in the long run; what to do when someone has their own kids and decisions have to be made about baptism and schooling. The cat is out of the bag then, no?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?

If the strong faith of ones parents is the reason that someone is hiding their own lack of faith, then it can't be described as being deeply personal.

sublunar

i can definitely see why people would hide it from their parents if they know it would cause trouble, but it is sad. and it does lead to people saying things like "i'm an atheist, but i haven't really come out yet" (in all seriousness. this is a direct quote).

this is part of the reason i think it's important for atheists to form some sort of community - it's easy for me to just get on with my life and not think about it, but for some people, it's a lot harder and can be lonely if they have to hide it from those closest to them.

Ickle Magoo

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

This kind of thing:

dvpower wrote:

So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

dvpower wrote: »

It would be. I didn't.

Well, you seemed to be intent of seeing people not declaring themselves as atheists as being a form of weakness, either theirs or their parents, rather than either a big issue or a non-issue - which it can also be.

dvpower wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favour of doing anything that would cause undue stress to a parent. If someone has a familial relationship that is so brittle that it would be damaged by simply sharing ones views, then maybe its better not to share those views.

I have a friend who's father kicked the shít out of him when he said he was an atheist and has barely uttered a dozen words to him since (this was over a decade ago). I have witnessed the gnashing of teeth and wailing of a mother who's daughter didn't want a church wedding and was threatening to never speak to the girl again unless she wed in the parish church. Although they are just personal anecdotes, I am certain they are not isolated incidents. Religion does funny things to people and some people are barely good parents to begin with, combine the two and it's easier just to say nothing than cause WWII.

dvpower wrote: »

Whose advocating shouting atheism from the rooftops? I'm advocating being open. I think that it is the best route unless there are good reasons to hide ones views. But I wonder if hiding ones atheism is sustainable in the long run; what to do when someone has their own kids and decisions have to be made about baptism and schooling. The cat is out of the bag then, no?

I agree, completely. I am also coming from the position of knowing people who have gone through a great deal of trouble, hurt and aggression for the sake of being open, I can understand why others would choose not to go that route. It wouldn't be for me & nor would I want it for my kids but I can see why other people in other situations would.

dvpower wrote: »

If the strong faith of ones parents is the reason that someone is hiding their own lack of faith, then it can't be described as being deeply personal.

Why not? I have friends with elderly parents who have no wish to upset them. They are not rabid atheists, they feel no sense of personal betrayal by going through the motions for the sake of making people they love happy...and that's their prerogative. :cool:

Erren Music

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion. As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.

And therein lies the problem with religion. Those people are completely brainwashed. They get emotional when their indoctrinated brain is challenged, they have no logical responses based on reason or science.

Religion has them unable to rationally seperate fact from fiction.

It was selfish of your parents to force it on you, and it is selfish of them to still expect you to believe the BS when you have grown up and actually seen the world for what it is.

Anyone here who hasn't told their parents do so, and stop supporting this church by going to functions in it.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without. If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?

It is cotton wool. The parents are deluding themselves and the children are lying to the parents. How is that good for anyone?

Ickle Magoo

Erren Music wrote: »

And therein lies the problem with religion. Those people are completely brainwashed. They get emotional when their indoctrinated brain is challenged, they have no logical responses based on reason or science.

Religion has them unable to rationally seperate fact from fiction.

Yes, yes, we all know your equally emotional and illogical responses to what other people choose to do.

Erren Music wrote: »

It was selfish of your parents to force it on you, and it is selfish of them to still expect you to believe the BS when you have grown up and actually seen the world for what it is.

I wasn't brought up with religion, my parents forced nothing on me and they are not selfishly expecting me to believe anything, what are you wittering on about now?

Erren Music wrote: »

Anyone here who hasn't told their parents do so, and stop supporting this church by going to functions in it.

That's their choice, though. No-one HAS to declare their faith or lack of, no-one MUST go to church when religious or refuse to cross the thresh-hold if not. It's not absolutely black and white for everyone, I'd imagine the majority are in rather a grey area of having religious family or even dating or marrying religious people - faith isn't something everyone can just wipe out of their life - and nor does everyone want to, for that matter.

Erren Music wrote: »

It is cotton wool. The parents are deluding themselves and the children are lying to the parents. How is that good for anyone?

That's just your rather narrow view on things...how other people choose to live their lives or interact with their family is up to them, you may not agree with it but you have no right to demand they change purely to satiate your own personal opinions on the matter.

axer

I know plenty of people that go to mass to keep their parents happy. I think everyone does.

Since I was about 16 ish I had strong logical arguments as to why the odds of a god existing as depicted by any organised religion are extremely low which I shared with my parents. Plenty of times we (me and some of my siblings) were called pagans for not going to mass (which is ironic since paganism is a religion but I think the parents didn't know that).

I told my parents when I was about 18 ish that I didn't believe in a god. They weren't that happy but accepted it all the same. I then officially left the church about a year or two ago after reading here that it was possible to do.

Its weird because the majority of Irish people (including me) were brainwashed as children being forced to learn off questions and answers as fact i.e. Who is god? God is the creator of .... etc etc.

I think atheists generally feel so strongly about the way things are because once you beat the brainwashing you see how bad it was.