Why don't we leave the EU? Join the Swiss in EFTA

BlitzKrieg

We also had to give up our fisheries too.

this is so off the mark that its laughable

you can start here: http://www.seaaroundus.org

Flamed Diving

I don't see why having a referendum every day or every year would matter (leaving aside people getting bored of them).

Some people must assume that the public never change their mind over short periods.

Odd.

BetterLisbon

Scofflaw wrote: »

We didn't "give up our fisheries" - we agreed EU access to them, just as we reciprocally gained access to other EU fisheries (mostly the UK). As it happens, we now fish a lot more (both absolutely and relatively) from Irish waters than we did before we joined the EU - the figures were all gone over at the time of the Lisbon debates, so please don't go around repeating old lies.

regards,
Scofflaw

We gave them up to the community that is an accurate statement. We were and are net losers on fisheries. It did however buy our membership of the EEC and temporary concessions on CAP. Note i didnt offer an exact figure (i am well aware the exact figure is uncertain) so please desist from your allegation of "lies".

BetterLisbon

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

this is so off the mark that its laughable

you can start here: http://www.seaaroundus.org

Like i said to scoff we had to give up fisheries to the community as a whole to buy our way into the EEC and extract temporary concessions on CAP.

Scofflaw

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I don't see why having a referendum every day or every year would matter (leaving aside people getting bored of them).

Some people must assume that the public never change their mind over short periods.

Odd.

That would be in the teeth of the evidence, since both at Nice and Lisbon the public did change their minds in the period given - and quite dramatically so.

Cue complaints that that was just the result of government bullying and fear-mongering - which rather invites the question "wouldn't a longer period between referendums simply have given the government longer to bully and fear-monger?".

cordially,
Scofflaw

BetterLisbon

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I don't see why having a referendum every day or every year would matter (leaving aside people getting bored of them).

Some people must assume that the public never change their mind over short periods.

Odd.

Well before Nice2 a referendum result led to the government changing its policies to reflect the stated will of the people, that is the will of the people was supreme.
Now a no vote is merely an inconvenience for the government of the day. The government of the day feels free to assert its own supremacy by rerunning the referendum until it gets the right answear.
We are of course allowed swithch from no to yes but not from yes to no.

Scofflaw

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Like i said to scoff we had to give up fisheries to the community as a whole to buy our way into the EEC and extract temporary concessions on CAP.

If you mean that access to fisheries was part of the deal, that's true - as it is for every member state - but that's not the implication of "give up". Nor is "temporary concessions on CAP" a meaningful statement - every CAP arrangement is by nature temporary, and all CAP arrangements are concessions to someone.

regards,
Scofflaw

BetterLisbon

Scofflaw wrote: »

That would be in the teeth of the evidence, since both at Nice and Lisbon the public did change their minds in the period given - and quite dramatically so.

Cue complaints that that was just the result of government bullying and fear-mongering - which rather invites the question "wouldn't a longer period between referendums simply have given the government longer to bully and fear-monger?".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Again we can change our minds from no to yes but not from yes to no.
A longer period would have exposed the lie that Nice was about enlargement as enlargement would have gone ahead anyway. Similarly a longer period would have exposed the lie of Yes for Jobs (its already been exposed) and most likely Yes for Recovery.

BetterLisbon

Scofflaw wrote: »

If you mean that access to fisheries was part of the deal, that's true - as it is for every member state - but that's not the implication of "give up". Nor is "temporary concessions on CAP" a meaningful statement - every CAP arrangement is by nature temporary, and all CAP arrangements are concessions to someone.

regards,
Scofflaw

Anyone who joined the EEC had to agree to the fisheries policy which gave up national control of fishing. A key eurosceptic argument in Iceland and Norway.
People like the late Raymond Crotty tried to point out that the concessions we were being offered on CAP were temporary and subject to being taken away on review. He was called a liar and a scaremongerer, he was even punched and kicked at a public meeting.

Flamed Diving

BetterLisbon wrote: »

We are of course allowed swithch from no to yes but not from yes to no.

Nonsense. If the entire electorate turned on the idea of Lisbon and wanted the amended constitution to be "re-amended", and made this their primary issue when voting in any elections, the government wouldn't budge?

Maybe they wouldn't. But they wouldn't last another term, and whatever party ran on the "We will re-amend" campaign would sweep into power.

I know in your mind we live in a dictatorship or something, but you're not thinking outside your box.

View

SkepticOne wrote: »

The UK could have been one of the countries that insisted on that get out clause that states that prior arrangements with countries that have close ties can continue to exist.

The clause states they can continue to exist pending renegotiations to bring them into line with the principles that the member states agreed. I know you like to ignore that bit but it doesn't go away just because you don't do so.

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't see a huge problem with it being applied to the free travel area between Britain and Ireland.

Well you no doubt wouldn't as it suits your case. Thing is, though, it will be the (other) member states sitting around the table during the renegotiations and they might not share your opinion. Indeed, for that matter, the British might not share your opinion.

Right now, there is no particular advantage to most people in Ireland to create a problem where, due to our EU membership, none currently exists.

View

SkepticOne wrote: »

There would no doubt be difficulties of various sorts if Ireland pulled out of the EU, no one is denying that. But what I'm wondering is why the UK would open a largely unnecessary can of worms when they don't have to.

Ireland had this arrangement prior to the entry into the EEC and eventually the EU. It survived entry and we don't need passports to travel between the two countries.

Should Ireland leave, I can't see why the UK would want to terminate the arrangement and cause a load of problems. This is an arrangement, remember that survived IRA bombings in London, Birmingham etc. At any stage they could have insisted on passport control but did not.

Exactly what would terminating it achieve?

Why not ask the UK Border Agency since they have a clearly stated policy of introducing passport controls between Great Britain and Ireland?

As they put it:

Proposed arrangements for travel between the Republic of Ireland and the UK

...

Travelling by air or sea

....

Under the proposals, anyone with an EU, EEA or Swiss passport - including British and Irish citizens - would also need to prove their identity and nationality with a passport or national identity card when travelling by air or sea between the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

SkepticOne wrote: »

The EU legislation kindly provided by View allows for an opt-out from the principles.

No it doesn't. It allows for a continuation of existing arrangements on a short-term basis until they are re-negotiated to bring them into line with the principles outlined. A very different thing from an opt-out.

View

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Which would be impossible aswell.

Asserting something is impossible does not make it so.

Would it, in your opinion, be "impossible" for the UK to collect taxes from Irish people working in the UK? Or issue them with driving licenses when necessary? Or any of the other routine administrative tasks that are carried out on a daily basis?

View

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Would you foresee nationalists in the north being collectively expelled or would you see the "as soon as possible" clause invoked?

There is an existing EU directive (2003/109/EC) on third-country nationals who are long-term residents of a member state. The UK had an opt-out on this when it was agreed in 2003 but could easily opt-in (if they haven't already done so) or, alternatively, they could apply the same concepts in their own domestic law without formally opting-in. That would solve the issue for most nationalists in NI (as they would meet the criteria for long-term residents).

That, however, would still leave the problem that anyone resident in a (non-EU) RoI would not meet the criteria for being long-term residents of the UK and/or the rest of the EU. They would be still face the prospect of needing to "stand in line" in future.

View

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Originally Posted by maggy_thatcher
The EU didn't force us to vote twice, the Irish government did. There's no difference between it and the multiple divorce/abortion referenda that we've had in the past? Just because we answered one way once doesn't prevent the government from asking the same question again at a point in the future. The gap between the two referenda was a little shorter than other cases, but there's no law that prevents that.

Bogus comparison.

Not according to the Supreme Court. And their opinion is what counts...

Henry McConville

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Henry you fail to note that the overwhelming majority of those funds went to a small section of society and those funds were bona fide compensation for the handicap of market regulation. We also had to give up our fisheries too.
You say we were one of the poorest when we joined, well that wouldnt be too difficult as there were only 9 members including all the european members of the G7. We reached 2nd richest per capita, exactly per capita and built on personal debt.

Everybody blames the EU, but I think the problems lay closer to home, can we really blame them for our own epic mismanagement? And it is an undeniable fact that the EU played a major role in the development. I have no debts, the people who got in over there head seem to want to blame everything but them self's.

Henry McConville

DaBrow wrote: »

Yes, we've been such good boys and girls.

We are so valued as members were bullyingly forced to vote on Lisbon Again, before that vote on the Nice Treaty TWICE.

It really seems the EU treats us like Children by neglecting us with faux affection or their favourite concubine where if we make a demand we get a slap; the EU was good when it was for trade.

Now it is about complete control.... More worryingly it rests in the hands of Countries that have had a long Imperial Past.

Belgium with the Congo

France with Napoleon

Germany... Where to Begin?

Everybody blames the EU, but I think the problems lay closer to home, can we really blame them for our own epic mismanagement? And it is an undeniable fact that the EU played a major role in the development. I have no debts, the people who got in over there head seem to want to blame everything but them self's.

ei.sdraob

Henry McConville wrote: »

Everybody blames the EU, but I think the problems lay closer to home, can we really blame them for our own epic mismanagement? And it is an undeniable fact that the EU played a major role in the development. I have no debts, the people who got in over there head seem to want to blame everything but them self's.

Good point

but it aint everyone
just a small vocal minority

our problems are entirely home-grown, if we werent in EU we probably would have ended up worse, think Iceland^10

bonkey

BetterLisbon wrote: »

Again we can change our minds from no to yes but not from yes to no.

Thats somewhat misrepresentative of both sides, actually.

We didn't bring about either the Nice or Lisbon Treaties. Rather, we said yes alongside everyone else who had to say yes. That we used a referendum where others didn't is neither here nor there...the requisite conditions were met in the EU for the Eu to change itself.

To change our minds (from "yes to no") involves another change of the EU. To do this, the requisite conditions would (again) have to be met.

Alternately, we have the option which underlines the entire premise for this thread. Rather than requiring a change to the EU, we can withdraw. We can change from yes to no, all on our own, as long as we're willing to do so by rejecting the entire framework (the EU) which defines the "yes".

Even if that weren't the case, I'd point out that the whole "no going back" thing was a fairly integral part of a lot of the opposition to both Treaties. If people are only realising now that they supported making a move which wasn't so easily undoable, then I'd honestly find it hard to have sympathy for them.....as they must have cast their original vote having steadfastly ignored the debates going on around them, as well as the facts that were available.

PopeBuckfastXVI

DidierMc wrote: »

A bunch of unelected technocrats forcing economic policies upon the people that they despise? That's tyranny as far as I'm concerned.

God help you if you ever lived under real tyranny then, such as, hmm... lets say the Soviet Union or Communist China...

DaBrow

Henry McConville wrote: »

Everybody blames the EU, but I think the problems lay closer to home, can we really blame them for our own epic mismanagement? And it is an undeniable fact that the EU played a major role in the development. I have no debts, the people who got in over there head seem to want to blame everything but them self's.

The EU is a bureaucracy that has so much redtape... People can easily exploit the loopholes and get away with murder.

Discipline cannot maintained because of conflicting laws that are in place; there are no limits to spending or monitoring a members states expenditure... That is why the EU for over 14 years hasn't returned a Financial Audit!

The EU are mostly to blame because they don't keep their members on a leash if behaving badly.

EFTA on the otherhand makes members accountable for their own faults and mistakes, they are responsible for their own affairs and must be self-sustainable.

Ireland has relied too much on other people.... We should rely on ourselves, that is why the country is stagnant. We appear to be waiting for a hand out.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Good point

but it aint everyone
just a small vocal minority

our problems are entirely home-grown, if we werent in EU we probably would have ended up worse, think Iceland^10

Iceland are recovering unlike us... we are sinking slowly into the economic quicksand.

They have their fisheries and own natural resources, along with their own currency which has devalued making them more attractive now to invest within.... 1.5 Million people have now visited Iceland as tourists.

Ireland on the otherhand and other crippled countries like Greece have got **** all to hope for if we remain in the eurozone, we're part of a bloc that would happily sweep us under the carpet and forget about us if they could.

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

The EU is a bureaucracy that has so much redtape... People can easily exploit the loopholes and get away with murder.

Murder is a crime dealt with by local national governments, not the EU. In fact, Europol makes murderers who cross into different countries easier to catch as they are a lot more centralized than having to rely on individual police jurisdictions.

sirromo

bonkey wrote:

Alternately, we have the option which underlines the entire premise for this thread. Rather than requiring a change to the EU, we can withdraw.

But our economy would fall apart if we left the EU. We'd be worse than Iceland. We'd be worse than Zimbabwe. Do you honestly want us to return to the repressive, priest-ridden, poverty-striken backwater that we were before we joined the EU? Because that's what will happen if we decide to leave now.

We just have to learn to keep our mouths shut, our heads down and try to be good wives Europeans. Forget all this talk about easy divorce withdrawal. It's just not going to happen.

Flamed Diving

sirromo wrote: »

But our economy would fall apart if we left the EU. We'd be worse than Iceland. We'd be worse than Zimbabwe. Do you honestly want us to return to the repressive, priest-ridden, poverty-striken backwater that we were before we joined the EU? Because that's what will happen if we decide to leave now.

We just have to learn to keep our mouths shut, our heads down and try to be good wives Europeans. Forget all this talk about easy divorce withdrawal. It's just not going to happen.

I will choose to read the literally, and disagree.

Henry McConville

DaBrow wrote: »

The EU is a bureaucracy that has so much redtape... People can easily exploit the loopholes and get away with murder.

Discipline cannot maintained because of conflicting laws that are in place; there are no limits to spending or monitoring a members states expenditure... That is why the EU for over 14 years hasn't returned a Financial Audit!

The EU are mostly to blame because they don't keep their members on a leash if behaving badly.

EFTA on the otherhand makes members accountable for their own faults and mistakes, they are responsible for their own affairs and must be self-sustainable.

Ireland has relied too much on other people.... We should rely on ourselves, that is why the country is stagnant. We appear to be waiting for a hand out.




Iceland are recovering unlike us... we are sinking slowly into the economic quicksand.

They have their fisheries and own natural resources, along with their own currency which has devalued making them more attractive now to invest within.... 1.5 Million people have now visited Iceland as tourists.

Ireland on the otherhand and other crippled countries like Greece have got **** all to hope for if we remain in the eurozone, we're part of a bloc that would happily sweep us under the carpet and forget about us if they could.

Firstly, the people and countries who rejected the Lisbon cannot be talking about a lack of discipline from the EU when we reject their legislation.

Ireland has no real natural resourses, on our own we would be in way worse trouble. Before we joined, remind me where we were? How would we have got to this position? 30 or 40 years ago the average person could no even afford a car, now most familys have two. It is not as bad as we make.

We do not have vast oil fields or anything of the sort like the likes of Norway, how would we stand on our own and with what? Tourism? That seems to be on the way out.

DaBrow

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Murder is a crime dealt with by local national governments, not the EU. In fact, Europol makes murderers who cross into different countries easier to catch as they are a lot more centralized than having to rely on individual police jurisdictions.

I was using an expression of speech with "Murder".... The EU allows it members to run wild without punishment i.e. Take as much as they want from the kitty.

However... Thank you for reminding me.

How many scumbags across the continent have we allowed into our country? Knowingly and Unknowingly

The EU allows anyone into our borders... Regardless of whether they are honest citizens or Violent Scumbags.

A Land Lady in Ireland was murdered by a Czech or Slovak thief, with convictions as long as their arm and even in the UK a young Teenage Girl was murdered by a Truck Driver from either Lithuanina or Estonia... He was suspected for murder in his own country.

Goes to show how wonderful the EU really is?

We have no idea whether those that arrive are honest or actually criminals.

Henry McConville wrote: »

Firstly, the people and countries who rejected the Lisbon cannot be talking about a lack of discipline from the EU when we reject their legislation.

Ireland has no real natural resourses, on our own we would be in way worse trouble. Before we joined, remind me where we were? How would we have got to this position? 30 or 40 years ago the average person could no even afford a car, now most familys have two. It is not as bad as we make.

We do not have vast oil fields or anything of the sort like the likes of Norway, how would we stand on our own and with what? Tourism? That seems to be on the way out.

We do have our own natural resources.... Thanks to EU Membership we have to share them

Ireland has a Fish supply we can't take advantage of because the EU doesn't allow and the Spanish continually steal it under EU protection.

The Corrib Gas could be used to develop the infrastructure in the west of Ireland and it people which have been neglected for years... They got no benefit from the Celtic Typhoid that happened, the irish government gave that over to the likes of Shell and other companies who manage to profit from it entirely.

Tourism was our lifeblood because we were affordable and a friendly place to visit... Greed and stupidity has flushed that down the toilet, which is killing us further.

We have our own resources... but no government has encouraged an expedition into what we have and what we can use.

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

I was using an expression of speech with "Murder".... The EU allows it members to run wild without punishment i.e. Take as much as they want from the kitty.

So say that then, don't use hyperbole.

DaBrow wrote: »

However... Thank you for reminding me.

How many scumbags across the continent have we allowed into our country? Knowingly and Unknowingly

The EU allows anyone into our borders... Regardless of whether they are honest citizens or Violent Scumbags.

A Land Lady in Ireland was murdered by a Czech or Slovak thief, with convictions as long as their arm and even in the UK a young Teenage Girl was murdered by a Truck Driver from either Lithuanina or Estonia... He was suspected for murder in his own country.

Goes to show how wonderful the EU really is?

We have no idea whether those that arrive are honest or actually criminals.

Which should encourage stronger cooperation, not weaker. Unless you want to seal off the borders (including the land border between here and the UK) and do background checks on every tourist into the country, you can't protect against "bad" people travelling. If we completely integrated our criminal record system and used image-recognition at the borders, it would certainly help.

maggy_thatcher

DaBrow wrote: »

The Corrib Gas could be used to develop the infrastructure in the west of Ireland and it people which have been neglected for years... They got no benefit from the Celtic Typhoid that happened, the irish government gave that over to the likes of Shell and other companies who manage to profit from it entirely.

Which is nothing to do with the EU, and all to do with the Irish government, and pulling out of the EU would give those people more power, not less. Is that really what you want?

Scofflaw

DaBrow wrote:

Ireland has a Fish supply we can't take advantage of because the EU doesn't allow and the Spanish continually steal it under EU protection.

This is false, has been proven false, and if repeated, will lead to sanction. You cannot expect to repeat false information endlessly.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Henry McConville

DaBrow wrote: »

I was using an expression of speech with "Murder".... The EU allows it members to run wild without punishment i.e. Take as much as they want from the kitty.

However... Thank you for reminding me.

How many scumbags across the continent have we allowed into our country? Knowingly and Unknowingly

The EU allows anyone into our borders... Regardless of whether they are honest citizens or Violent Scumbags.

A Land Lady in Ireland was murdered by a Czech or Slovak thief, with convictions as long as their arm and even in the UK a young Teenage Girl was murdered by a Truck Driver from either Lithuanina or Estonia... He was suspected for murder in his own country.

Goes to show how wonderful the EU really is?

We have no idea whether those that arrive are honest or actually criminals.



We do have our own natural resources.... Thanks to EU Membership we have to share them

Ireland has a Fish supply we can't take advantage of because the EU doesn't allow and the Spanish continually steal it under EU protection.

The Corrib Gas could be used to develop the infrastructure in the west of Ireland and it people which have been neglected for years... They got no benefit from the Celtic Typhoid that happened, the irish government gave that over to the likes of Shell and other companies who manage to profit from it entirely.

Tourism was our lifeblood because we were affordable and a friendly place to visit... Greed and stupidity has flushed that down the toilet, which is killing us further.

We have our own resources... but no government has encouraged an expedition into what we have and what we can use.

Irelands fish resources are not going to save us if we leave the EU! I worked for Shell on that project.

the irish government gave that over to the likes of Shell and other companies who manage to profit from it entirely.

?

What has that got to do with the EU then?

Also, all Shell did in that region was improve the roads...