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Why don't we leave the EU? Join the Swiss in EFTA
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But we'd have our IDENTITYPopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »I'd just like to point out that I don't want to be a fisherman, thanks all the same.0 -
Its far too early to be calling who is out of recession and who isn't.
Well, the Swiss are pretty certain that they're out of recession.
Before that gets construed as supporting the OP's perspective, I'd point out that the Swiss Franc is currently walking roughshod over Sterling, the dollar and the Euro....and that didn't hinder the Swiss recovering faster then anyone else.
It seems to me that most of the arguments presented regarding the wonders of non-EU membership thus far have the same flaw. They all conflate correlation and causation without establishing any sort of link.0 -
Allowing our Diasporans back has nothing to do with a Herrenvolk arguement, or thinly disguised racial intent... But the fact they would integrate successfully because they share and value the same culture as the Native Irish Population.
OK, as a member of the so-called "Irish Diaspora" who is currently living (temporarily) in Ireland, all I can say in response to your claims is HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! um, NO.
I share values in that I could be called "culturally Catholic" and have a dark sense of humor. But I've never felt so culturally American until I moved here. Why does the nation's capitol have no integrated public transport system? Who decided to build a rail "network" that doesn't connect? Why do people keep voting for Fianna Fail? Why was there mass pandemonium over the passport office debacle, but barely a peep from the public when the NAMA numbers were announced? Why were people more up in arms over The Hand of Henri than over Anglo-Irish? Why do public officials get driven around in Mercs? Why do Irish Catholics (in Ireland) continue to go to mass and put money in the collection plates every week, given the revelations of the Ryan report (and other subsequent reports)? Why do people here mutter about anyone who is actually successful - outside of government, of course? Why is the Thai food so terrible?
I certainly can't speak for everyone in the diaspora. But given that there wasn't a stampede to move here when times were good (why did a tiny apartment in a small rainy city with no good public transport cost half a million euros?) why in the world would Irish-Americans rush in now that the economy is in the toilet, public funds are being dumped into zombie companies, and people are seriously discussing leaving the EU? I mean, we have two out of the three already at home.The irish Diaspora have helped this country function through its darkest days and you refuse to acknowledge them. Allowing them to return is a sincere way of paying back their kindness... I have Family in the US who relate to Ireland and call themselves Irish; they culturally have alot in common with Irish people and practise the same traditions my family here in Ireland are familiar with, you have no right to deny them that right.
I've always supported our Diasporas right to return home... Even before Lisbon was rammed down our throat and I supported the EU.
Please don't confuse second and third generation ethnic nostalgia for a willingness to pick up and move to a completely different country with different laws, tax regimes and, yes, culture. Just because you can make soda bread and know the words to "Danny Boy" doesn't mean that life in Ireland isn't at times extremely disorienting for Irish-Americans (and most Irish-Americans I know who have permanently moved to Ireland freely admit that NOBODY here considers them "Irish", no matter how long they have been here).
Finally, nobody is denying anyone anything; it's relatively easy for second-generation people to claim citizenship. But given that Ireland is in even worse shape that the US (and is STILL more expensive!), I doubt people will be beating down the doors anytime soon. To be honest, the only appealing thing about getting an Irish passport right now is the fact that it would give me the chance to live and work anywhere in the EU, not necessarily in Ireland...and you are proposing to do away with one of the key benefits of claiming dual citizenship (which Americans aren't really supposed to do anyway).0 -
It seems to me that most of the arguments presented regarding the wonders of non-EU membership thus far have the same flaw. They all conflate correlation and causation without establishing any sort of link.
Thats a fair cop bonkey but the shoe also fits on the other foot. Plenty of pro-EU arguments rely on correlation and some in fact are bogus as the same benefits are available via EFTA. Proof of causation is a very high threshold especially on economics.0 -
Another interpretation is that the advantage due to absence of currency risk is overrated when it comes to developing indigenous industry.As regards indigenous industry, it's pathetic. We've had ten years of trading with with our biggest economic trading bloc, without currency risks and multi nationals still represent something like 80/90% of our exports. Too busy building houses I'm afraid.0 -
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Looks like there has been some progress on the IMF front:I suppose you'd need to ask people from Iceland what it is like there. They had their referendum over the Icesave bank but can't access IMF and Scandinavian loans until they sort out a deal.REYKJAVIK, Iceland, April 10 (UPI) -- The International Monetary Fund has announced it will recommend providing $159 million in loans to Iceland while its banking dispute is still on hold. source]0 -
SkepticOne wrote: »Another interpretation is that the advantage due to absence of currency risk is overrated when it comes to developing indigenous industry.
Maybe developing them, not sustaining them.
You'd have a point but our main indigenous industry was property. The capital was widely available, the opportunity cost of the bubble.SkepticOne wrote: »Looks like there has been some progress on the IMF front:
Good for them.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Flamed Diving wrote: »
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=TSA05&ti=Value+of+Merchandise+Trade+by+Year,+Area+and+Statistic&path=../Database/Eirestat/Trade/&lang=1
Are images not allowed?
Where have you been?
Keeping up with the jonese like the rest of the foolish people here that ignored the bubble we had for an economy?
37% of our Exports are purchased by Britain and America, places which are now buying elsewhere outside the eurozone because we are not price competitive and more expensive to trade with compared to eastern europe.
Anyone who thinks the Euro will keep together need be reminded:
Spain has unemployment of almost 20%
Greece has €300 Billion to raise which I doubt it Will
Portugal has lost its AAA Credit Rating
Nama is badly planned and Ireland's Trading performance is abysmal now0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »OK, as a member of the so-called "Irish Diaspora" who is currently living (temporarily) in Ireland, all I can say in response to your claims is HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! um, NO.
I share values in that I could be called "culturally Catholic" and have a dark sense of humor. But I've never felt so culturally American until I moved here. Why does the nation's capitol have no integrated public transport system? Who decided to build a rail "network" that doesn't connect? Why do people keep voting for Fianna Fail? Why was there mass pandemonium over the passport office debacle, but barely a peep from the public when the NAMA numbers were announced? Why were people more up in arms over The Hand of Henri than over Anglo-Irish? Why do public officials get driven around in Mercs? Why do Irish Catholics (in Ireland) continue to go to mass and put money in the collection plates every week, given the revelations of the Ryan report (and other subsequent reports)? Why do people here mutter about anyone who is actually successful - outside of government, of course? Why is the Thai food so terrible?
I certainly can't speak for everyone in the diaspora. But given that there wasn't a stampede to move here when times were good (why did a tiny apartment in a small rainy city with no good public transport cost half a million euros?) why in the world would Irish-Americans rush in now that the economy is in the toilet, public funds are being dumped into zombie companies, and people are seriously discussing leaving the EU? I mean, we have two out of the three already at home.
Please don't confuse second and third generation ethnic nostalgia for a willingness to pick up and move to a completely different country with different laws, tax regimes and, yes, culture. Just because you can make soda bread and know the words to "Danny Boy" doesn't mean that life in Ireland isn't at times extremely disorienting for Irish-Americans (and most Irish-Americans I know who have permanently moved to Ireland freely admit that NOBODY here considers them "Irish", no matter how long they have been here).
Finally, nobody is denying anyone anything; it's relatively easy for second-generation people to claim citizenship. But given that Ireland is in even worse shape that the US (and is STILL more expensive!), I doubt people will be beating down the doors anytime soon. To be honest, the only appealing thing about getting an Irish passport right now is the fact that it would give me the chance to live and work anywhere in the EU, not necessarily in Ireland...and you are proposing to do away with one of the key benefits of claiming dual citizenship (which Americans aren't really supposed to do anyway).
Italy grants citizenship to its diaspora regardless of their generation.... As long as they have proof of descent and
Our Current Laws are stupid and Ignorant compared to what Greece, Germany, Croatia and China have to ourselves.... Our law was changed in 1984/86 From Allowing 3rd Generation Descendants a chance to 2nd Generation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
In 2002, Two irish-Argentine Girls were denied irish citizenship because they were at least one generation too-late. These girls spoke perfect Irish, English & Spanish; had a very good education and qualifications aswell as a strong cultural/ancestral connection which would benefit the country greatly because that would allow ourselves and trade partners a better understanding of one another.
Ignorant people who've never even been outside of Ireland would not consider Irish-Diasporans "Irish", Most Diasporans are culturally Irish aswell as descended from Irish Ancestry but it depends where you actually venture... Diasporans from the Americas and Australasia really value their ancestry including its culture.
Britain is a mixed bag; there are a few who consider themselves only irish despite being born there and raised but most are culturally detatched or anglocized because they have a strange of belief that Britain has been good to them despite the very bad history.
P.S.
The Ryan Report has nothing to do with this thread, those revelations concluded that the state and government allowed all cases of abuse by traitors to the clergy to continue despite the evidence proving it happened... Equal Complicity.
Ireland has a bad history of Civil War Rival Gombeenary polluting its politics; Fianna Fáil was damaged when they let in Haughy (Bertie the Dunass' Mentor) despite De valera's warning and Bruton being the embarrassing idiot that he is delayed peace in the North....
We need a system that has buried that c*ap and puts the country first; accountability is what is required and responsibility.
Have more faith it it might happen0 -
Where have you been?
Keeping up with the jonese like the rest of the foolish people here that ignored the bubble we had for an economy?
37% of our Exports are purchased by Britain and America, places which are now buying elsewhere outside the eurozone because we are not price competitive and more expensive to trade with compared to eastern europe.
Anyone who thinks the Euro will keep together need be reminded:
Spain has unemployment of almost 20%
Greece has €300 Billion to raise which I doubt it Will
Portugal has lost its AAA Credit Rating
Nama is badly planned and Ireland's Trading performance is abysmal now
You were wrong, DaBrow, just be glad the data I provided wasn't as bad as you predicted! I know you would hate to see your country in more trouble.0 -
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Flamed Diving wrote: »You were wrong, DaBrow, just be glad the data I provided wasn't as bad as you predicted! I know you would hate to see your country in more trouble.
The CSO have had a reputation of not always being accurate, so if you believe these statistics without question... that only shows how naive people can be. They were wrong about the census data and that is pretty damning.
Ireland is already in Trouble and you are imagining that all is well; Farmers in the Country are suffering because the CAP Grants are not as wholesome as they used to and they cannot sell their livestock.... Halifax Bank which was the first main bank to open on Saturdays in Ireland and with free withdrawals is LEAVING Ireland.
Look at Norway and Switzerland... They are outside the EU Yet:- They receieve 6 times the amount back in return for every Franc/Krona/Euro they invest
- They have no Travel, Trade, Capital and Working Restrictions for EU Nationals in their countries
- They have the power to accept what parts of the EU Legislation they wish to adopt
- They have control over their natural resources and can can limit their immigration if they so wish.... Without External Bodies interfering.
Why do you want to stay in a bloc that is not only replicating the Soviet Union, but gradually stripping all our soverignty away?
The boom is over and stop trying to keep up with the Jones'... We were better than that.
..................
EFTA EU27 - 2008
GDP (in million € at market prices) [1]
664,026 12,503,337
GDP per capita (PPS in €) [1] [2]
37,975 25,100
http://www.efta.int/statistics/statistical-data.aspx0 -
Is there a reason why you keep on ignoring that the Eurozone is our single biggest trading partner? This has been repeatedly pointed out to you.37% of our Exports are purchased by Britain and America, places which are now buying elsewhere outside the eurozone because we are not price competitive and more expensive to trade with compared to eastern europe.
Actually that is not quite true. The ancestor who immigrated from Italy must have died after March 17, 1861. Prior to that there was no Italian state to draw citizenship from and jure sanguinis would not apply.Italy grants citizenship to its diaspora regardless of their generation....
Additionally, this law is presently being reviewed by the Italian government, due to the number of dubious applications that have been made using it by people with no real connection to Italy.
They may value their ancestry, but ultimately after a generation or two they are no longer Irish.Ignorant people who've never even been outside of Ireland would not consider Irish-Diasporans "Irish", Most Diasporans are culturally Irish aswell as descended from Irish Ancestry but it depends where you actually venture... Diasporans from the Americas and Australasia really value their ancestry including its culture.
Why? One simple reason is that Ireland, like any other country, has moved on; the priest ridden isle of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads is no more. Just as an American of Mississippian ancestry cannot return after an generational absence of a century and expect blacks to sit at the back of the bus.
But mainly it's because they're foreigners. They may hold onto an Irish culture that has some basic commonality to our own, but other than that they are born and bred in another country. Their allegiance is to another country. And the vast bulk of their traditions and cultural cues are foreign to us.
That is not to say that given they have a pre-existing, if tennious, connection to Ireland, that they should not be afforded some sort of fast track to naturalization. However, I think most would consider it utterly ridiculous that one can never have stepped foot in Ireland, only their parents may have been born (but not raised) in Ireland and yet can gain citizenship.
And as a citizen, they still need not step foot in Ireland.
I suppose they are traitors in you eyes...Britain is a mixed bag; there are a few who consider themselves only irish despite being born there and raised but most are culturally detatched or anglocized because they have a strange of belief that Britain has been good to them despite the very bad history.
"Traitors to the clergy" - that would include many of the church hierarchy that covered up the abuses. Indeed, it would include much of Irish society in general; many of these abuses were common knowledge, and one thing you don't hear is how laypeople also assisted in the cover-up.The Ryan Report has nothing to do with this thread, those revelations concluded that the state and government allowed all cases of abuse by traitors to the clergy to continue despite the evidence proving it happened... Equal Complicity.
Not exactly true. They have the power to say no, but that does not mean they are any longer in a position to do so.- They have the power to accept what parts of the EU Legislation they wish to adopt
- They have control over their natural resources and can can limit their immigration if they so wish.... Without External Bodies interfering.
For example, the Swiss voted on freedom of movement for for workers from Bulgaria and Romania. While they were free to reject this proposal, it would have resulted in the EU invoking the "guillotine clause" - terminating all bilateral agreements. On this basis the Swiss federal government promoted acceptance of the referendum.
This is why I spoke of Realpolitik earlier - sovereignty is a deceptive term in that a country can in reality have less control over its destiny even when on paper it has more.0 -
That is a fair point. My main issue with most Eurosceptic arguments is that they tend to be based, in reality, on purely nationalistic, often racialist, considerations and then sold, poorly, on an economic basis (because the nationalistic or racialist would not find enough support).BetterLisbon wrote: »Thats a fair cop bonkey but the shoe also fits on the other foot. Plenty of pro-EU arguments rely on correlation and some in fact are bogus as the same benefits are available via EFTA. Proof of causation is a very high threshold especially on economics.
Unfortunately, I think the reality of the modern globalized World is such that nationalism is really a luxury that can no longer be afforded. Even countries such as Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are slowly coming to this conclusion and the former two are in a far better position to stand on their own that Ireland ever has been, and the latter has all but given up the ghost.
Small fish in big ponds don't tend to survive - from a nineteenth century perspective, only a few have ever managed to in Europe, by pure fluke, and none of them have full sovereignty today. The twenty-first century is one of super-nations and traditional, nation states simply do not have the power to compete.
It's not necessarily a very positive argument in favour of EU membership, however it is a realistic one, and until someone can come up with a realistic alternative, I cannot see us leaving or even wanting to.0 -
The CSO have had a reputation of not always being accurate, so if you believe these statistics without question... that only shows how naive people can be. They were wrong about the census data and that is pretty damning.
Anything but you being wrong, I guess. I agree with Scofflaw's statement above. You just disregard any evidence which contradicts your position, for any spurious reason. Thus, any discussion with you is pointless.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »Is there a reason why you keep on ignoring that the Eurozone is our single biggest trading partner? This has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
The 37% is of more importance to him, simple as.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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As I said in my response to BetterLisbon, I have rarely found Eurosceptic arguments that were not in reality founded on xenophobic and even racist motivations. This is not to say Eurosceptic cannot be founded on other, rational, motivations - only that the more common or vocal tend to be like DaBrow.The 37% is of more importance to him, simple as.
Because xenophobia or racialism are not going to be very successful in convincing people, they will construct arguments based on freedom or economics. This process of induction tends to result in myopic selection of facts (such as emphasizing UK/US trade while ignoring that the Eurozone is the biggest trade partner) that are incredibly easy to debunk, with only a minimum of investigation. When this happens they will often ignore rebuttals and adopt a rhetorical approach. Finally if pressed they will seek excuses to disengage from discussion under some pretext that will allow them to retain the high moral ground.
There may well be valid Eurosceptic arguments out there as the EU is anything but ideal. However, those who expose feeble economic arguments to mask their own Herrenvolk agendas serve only to discredit all Eurosceptic arguments, regardless of worth.0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »As I said in my response to BetterLisbon, I have rarely found Eurosceptic arguments that were not in reality founded on xenophobic and even racist motivations. This is not to say Eurosceptic cannot be founded on other, rational, motivations - only that the more common or vocal tend to be like DaBrow.
Because xenophobia or racialism are not going to be very successful in convincing people, they will construct arguments based on freedom or economics. This process of induction tends to result in myopic selection of facts (such as emphasizing UK/US trade while ignoring that the Eurozone is the biggest trade partner) that are incredibly easy to debunk, with only a minimum of investigation. When this happens they will often ignore rebuttals and adopt a rhetorical approach. Finally if pressed they will seek excuses to disengage from discussion under some pretext that will allow them to retain the high moral ground.
There may well be valid Eurosceptic arguments out there as the EU is anything but ideal. However, those who expose feeble economic arguments to mask their own Herrenvolk agendas serve only to discredit all Eurosceptic arguments, regardless of worth.
Which is a pity, because the EU, like any other human endeavour, needs constructive criticism. Unfortunately, the public debate tends to be dominated by the dishonest criticisms offered by petty nationalists, xenophobes, and Atlanticists who believe that not only should we be closer to Boston, but that we should play our part in opposing Berlin.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Which is a pity, because the EU, like any other human endeavour, needs constructive criticism. Unfortunately, the public debate tends to be dominated by the dishonest criticisms offered by petty nationalists, xenophobes, and Atlanticists who believe that not only should we be closer to Boston, but that we should play our part in opposing Berlin.
cordially,
Scofflaw
Did you not see the link I had... EFTA Nations are actually wealthier than Most EU States, People in the EFTA States have higher standards of living and salaries than their counterparts in the EU.
€25K is the average salary in the EU27, in the EFTA 4 it is €37k... I think I know what I would choose.
Europhiles and EU Supporters don't allow free discussion, they just accuse what they oppose as prejudiced & impractical without even looking at it in great detail.
Ireland is an Island Country and we should have a foot in europe, but a bigger foot in parts of the world where our Diaspora has a presence... Be it the Americas, South Africa or Australasia.
If it wasn't for remittances from these places... We'd still be starving and having to eat our own pets because there wasn't a bean left to find.The Corinthian wrote: »As I said in my response to BetterLisbon, I have rarely found Eurosceptic arguments that were not in reality founded on xenophobic and even racist motivations. This is not to say Eurosceptic cannot be founded on other, rational, motivations - only that the more common or vocal tend to be like DaBrow.
Because xenophobia or racialism are not going to be very successful in convincing people, they will construct arguments based on freedom or economics. This process of induction tends to result in myopic selection of facts (such as emphasizing UK/US trade while ignoring that the Eurozone is the biggest trade partner) that are incredibly easy to debunk, with only a minimum of investigation. When this happens they will often ignore rebuttals and adopt a rhetorical approach. Finally if pressed they will seek excuses to disengage from discussion under some pretext that will allow them to retain the high moral ground.
There may well be valid Eurosceptic arguments out there as the EU is anything but ideal. However, those who expose feeble economic arguments to mask their own Herrenvolk agendas serve only to discredit all Eurosceptic arguments, regardless of worth.
Just so to remind you how incapable of being relevant to a topic, I feel the need to tell you how childish your posting is... Others have mentioned this to me aswell.
There you go about HerrenVolk again, this is Not Pre-Apartheid South Africa or a Stupid AWB Rally with that now dead Headcase Eugene Terreblanche.... The whole idea of Separate Boer Republics in Africa especially when they are not Native Africans and they are culturally and genetically europeans is a joke... So stop being foolish and act like an adult.
The EU doesn't care about its citizens anymore; if you think its acceptable to ram a rejected treaty for the second down a country's throat through blackmail and bullying... That is cowardice and collaborating with the other side.
I simply want my country back... I want all those that under our constitution of Article 2 to have the right to return to their homeland as returning Irish Citizens so they can build this country to the greatness it deserves... Free of Civil War Politics, Free of Corrupt Gombeenism and a United Nation where Irish Protestants & Catholics are treated Fairly and equally under law despite the difference in numbers.
BTW....
If the Eurozone makes up 32% of Trade, UK & America make up 37%.... What about the other 31%? So the issue is why concentrate on 32% when the greater 68% is far more important?
68% Of our Exports then are outside the Eurozone and conducted with other nations whose currency is not as strong as the Euro.... Making exports non-competitive in Price and continuing the pain we now feel.
A strong euro is killing us... We cannot continue using a currency that is allowing our debt to continually soar higher, especially when we are way over the limit of debt allowed in financial membership.
Greece will default... The PIIGS Nations have more money in the RED than the whole Eurozone has within the BLACK; So a bailout which is still illegal won't contain the fallout but just delay it.
David McWilliams has gotten only a few things wrong, the main error has been the timing but he was correct about the consequences which where forecasted for years and I doubt he will be incorrect about the future of the Euro.0 -
Did you not see the link I had... EFTA Nations are actually wealthier than Most EU States, People in the EFTA States have higher standards of living and salaries than their counterparts in the EU.
€25K is the average salary in the EU27, in the EFTA 4 it is €37k... I think I know what I would choose.
Europhiles and EU Supporters don't allow free discussion, they just accuse what they oppose as prejudiced & impractical without even looking at it in great detail.
Ireland is an Island Country and we should have a foot in europe, but a bigger foot in parts of the world where our Diaspora has a presence... Be it the Americas, South Africa or Australasia.
If it wasn't for remittances from these places... We'd still be starving and having to eat our own pets because there wasn't a bean left to find.
Taking an average of 27 countries, many former Eastern Bloc countries, will slightly skew stats like that.
You could look at how wages have improved here for example, but that would go against your point.
As for remittances? You mean multi nationals?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Taking an average of 27 countries, many former Eastern Bloc countries, will slightly skew stats like that.
You could look at how wages have improved here for example, but that would go against your point.
As for remittances? You mean multi nationals?
Remittances as in Foreign Nationals Sending money home to the family back in Lithuania.
For example in Britain, one body showed that even though Foreigners generated £100Million Pounds to the Treasury... Those same people sent back over £1 Billion back to their family in their homeland.
However, alot of Multi-Nationals practise something similar where the money they generate in one nation is taken out of that place and sent to the Original Based HQ... Avoiding Corporate Tax in several Jurisdictions and paying a small amount of declared Tax in its home country.
There is a Flight of capital which I suspect also leads to avoiding Tax, especially if it is cash in hand where the elompoyee pay isn't properly recorded.
I think there is still a strong occurance of this happening even now, during tough times because tax is higher and it leads to a large black economy emerging.0 -
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Because China will take over the world unless we all work together.0
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Because China will take over the world unless we all work together.
Oh come off it, please.
China would have to sort out its issues with Taiwan first, after that they'll be too busy trying to outpower the Indians and the Russians...
You can throw the Korean and Japanese into the Mix too... China has enough neighbours to compete with than the world.
China along with India have over a billion mouths each to feed... Horrendous Famine happening in both countries is not impossible and that is often overlooked.
There is no need for a United Europe at all... We all have issues with one another and forcing us to live under a single roof with differing rules will end in disaster.0 -
How many times do people have to point out that simplistic comparisons are meaningless. We are not Norway. We are not Switzerland.€25K is the average salary in the EU27, in the EFTA 4 it is €37k... I think I know what I would choose.
Additionally one cannot simply look at salaries alone as a measure of wealth. Taxation and price index is also essential to any comparison - for this you would be better off looking at other indicators such as the Big Mac Index.
How can you compare salaries with any meaning, when the cost of of a supermarket stake in Madrid will cost you €6 and in Bern the same cut will cost you €12?
Most of us didn't get any remittances mate. We stayed and made a living in Ireland with 55%+ income tax and rampant protectionism as we sought (for ideological reasons) to become a self-sufficient agrarian nation. It was abandoning that moronic ideology that has freed us.If it wasn't for remittances from these places... We'd still be starving and having to eat our own pets because there wasn't a bean left to find.
Where have others done so here?Just so to remind you how incapable of being relevant to a topic, I feel the need to tell you how childish your posting is... Others have mentioned this to me aswell.
You have repeatedly cited the importance of genetics to citizenship. While you have pointed out that many of the descendants of the Irish diaspora hold on to old Irish traditions, you have never suggested that their cultural integrity should be a consideration - only their blood.There you go about HerrenVolk again, this is Not Pre-Apartheid South Africa or a Stupid AWB Rally with that now dead Headcase Eugene Terreblanche.... The whole idea of Separate Boer Republics in Africa especially when they are not Native Africans and they are culturally and genetically europeans is a joke... So stop being foolish and act like an adult.
Even your South African argument is laughable, in that by suggesting that by racially finding against South African whites as "genetically Europeans", you are somehow rejecting racialism - when ironically you are embracing it.
Defining national status by genetic ties alone is racialist. Full stop. You can huff and puff and try to dismiss this, but ultimately you cannot escape the fact that you are using racialist criteria for your definitions.
I think there should be a right to return to one's 'homeland' as long as it is one's 'homeland'. Realistically, by the time one has lived abroad for a few generations, without making any attempt to maintain those ties, then you really have to face the fact that it is no longer your 'homeland'.I simply want my country back... I want all those that under our constitution of Article 2 to have the right to return to their homeland as returning Irish Citizens so they can build this country to the greatness it deserves... Free of Civil War Politics, Free of Corrupt Gombeenism and a United Nation where Irish Protestants & Catholics are treated Fairly and equally under law despite the difference in numbers.
Irish-Americans are not Irish. They may hold onto some of the old traditions of their forefathers, but Ireland moved on. And given a choice of citizenship, I doubt many would choose to lose their American citizenship for Irish.
You raised the issue of trade in relation to our membership of the Euro. If you wish to view those figures in terms of trade currencies, it does not take a genius to figure out that a third of all our trade is in the Euro, thus making it an attractive currency for us to have.If the Eurozone makes up 32% of Trade, UK & America make up 37%.... What about the other 31%? So the issue is why concentrate on 32% when the greater 68% is far more important?
When you cite the UK and US, you bunch them together for some reason? Why? They are not the same country. They are members of different and competing trading blocs (of which we are a member of one). They have different currencies. The only thing they have in common is Anglophone culture, and tenuously at that.
Economically, you cannot bunch them together as a single trading partner - it makes no sense.
Additionally exchange rate fluctuations in the Euro would actually make no difference to our trade with other Eurozone countries, which constitute our single largest trade currency group.
You argument makes no sense, there is no logic behind it. You have taken some vague notion of the importance of monetary policy and the relative strength of currencies and ignored that while in leaving the Euro we would gain with some, but we would lose overall.A strong euro is killing us... We cannot continue using a currency that is allowing our debt to continually soar higher, especially when we are way over the limit of debt allowed in financial membership.
Greece could default, but it also may not - it's been the week link in the Eurozone from the start, as evidenced by their less than accurate accounting when entering it. Even if it does, this does not by any stretch mean the collapse of the Euro - for that to happen would take Germany, Italy or France leaving.Greece will default... The PIIGS Nations have more money in the RED than the whole Eurozone has within the BLACK; So a bailout which is still illegal won't contain the fallout but just delay it.0 -
Wow, did you read my post at all?Italy grants citizenship to its diaspora regardless of their generation.... As long as they have proof of descent and
Our Current Laws are stupid and Ignorant compared to what Greece, Germany, Croatia and China have to ourselves.... Our law was changed in 1984/86 From Allowing 3rd Generation Descendants a chance to 2nd Generation.
To be honest, the only ****ed up thing I see about Ireland's citizenship policy is that it is easier for my mother, who has spent all of about 12 days in Ireland, to get citizenship that is is for a child who has lived in Ireland for 12 years, but whose parents are foreign, to get citizenship.Ignorant people who've never even been outside of Ireland would not consider Irish-Diasporans "Irish", Most Diasporans are culturally Irish aswell as descended from Irish Ancestry but it depends where you actually venture... Diasporans from the Americas and Australasia really value their ancestry including its culture.
Valuing culture and ancestry and wanting to uproot your family to "rebuild" what is frankly a pretty ****ed up country at the moment are two completely different things. How many Irish Americans can tell you the name of the Taoiseach (or even pronounce taoiseach)? The names of the major political parties (other than Sinn Fein)? People don't give a **** about Irish politics, and if they do, it's interest in the politics of Northern Ireland - which, interestingly, seems to get less play in the Republic than it does in Boston or Chicago.
Incidentally, within the US, pretty much every ethnic group takes pride in their historical background. But at the end of the day, people are Americans, and proud of it. We didn't get our reputation as jingoistic chest-thumpers for nothing, thank you very much.Britain is a mixed bag; there are a few who consider themselves only irish despite being born there and raised but most are culturally detatched or anglocized because they have a strange of belief that Britain has been good to them despite the very bad history.
Not touching this with a barge pole.P.S.
The Ryan Report has nothing to do with this thread, those revelations concluded that the state and government allowed all cases of abuse by traitors to the clergy to continue despite the evidence proving it happened... Equal Complicity.
The Ryan Report has a hell of a lot to do with your cultural claims about Irish Americans. Irish-American Catholics responded COMPLETELY differently to Church abuse revelations than Irish Catholics did. Why? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT THE SAME.Ireland has a bad history of Civil War Rival Gombeenary polluting its politics; Fianna Fáil was damaged when they let in Haughy (Bertie the Dunass' Mentor) despite De valera's warning and Bruton being the embarrassing idiot that he is delayed peace in the North....
I doubt 1 out of 100 Irish-Americans would actually know who any of the people you just mentioned are, with the possible exception of DeValera. And, by the way, where I'm from, we don't call it "gombeenary", we call it "clout".We need a system that has buried that c*ap and puts the country first; accountability is what is required and responsibility.
Yes, people who live in Ireland should take responsibility for fixing the mess that the government that THEY voted for put them in. We're all rooting for you...from the other side of the pond.
Actually, if you want the diaspora to make a difference in domestic politics, then how about you allow Irish citizens living abroad to vote? THAT would have more of a political impact that making it easier for Americans to get Irish (i.e. EU) passports.Have more faith it it might happen
It won't. And, frankly, it shouldn't.0 -
However it is only your opinion that Ireland would overall lose from from leaving the Euro. It may be a very cherished belief on your part that that would be the case but that does not make it fact.The Corinthian wrote: »You argument makes no sense, there is no logic behind it. You have taken some vague notion of the importance of monetary policy and the relative strength of currencies and ignored that while in leaving the Euro we would gain with some, but we would lose overall.
I won't bother listing them at the moment but there are internationally respected figures who would disagree with you.0 -
To begin with Ireland would have to create an alternative currency, a stable one - having monetary control over a currency that the markets can revalue, is not much use. It took us until 1979 to actually have a currency that could stand on it's own and we are simply not in a position to do this at present as to begin with we have monstrous debt levels (external debt is 960% of GDP) and so it would be seen as largely worthless.SkepticOne wrote: »However it is only your opinion that Ireland would overall lose from from leaving the Euro. It may be a very cherished belief on your part that that would be the case but that does not make it fact.
The only alternative to our own currency in such a scenario is one pegged to Sterling, the US Dollar or, ironically, the Euro - all of which would defeat the purpose of leaving.
Even if we could create a credible independent currency (and we can't), you have to ask what would be the benefits? We could devalue to make our exports more competitive, but in changing currency we would instantly be at a disadvantage trading with Eurozone nations, against other Eurozone nations.
Multinationals specifically have cited the Euro as a reason for using Ireland as a base and for smaller, indigenous companies, I cannot stress enough how much easier it is to trade goods and services in Euro. If we were back to the Punt, we'd still have to trade in Euro, and pay the exchange rates for the privilege.
And how useful would devaluation be for us? Arguably not a Hell of a lot. The argument on the Euro has focused on Monetary policy to the exclusion of all other economic policies. Devaluation is not a magic solution to our economic woes. As bonkey pointed out the Swiss Franc has appreciated greatly against the Euro (about 12% over the last two years AFAIR) and their economy is doing fine.
I'll accept however, that regaining control of Monetary policy versus Eurozone membership is a matter that could be debated further. But not now - because ultimately, we have no alternative at present.
You're right, we'll just take your word for it then.I won't bother listing them at the moment but there are internationally respected figures who would disagree with you.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »Wow, did you read my post at all?
To be honest, the only ****ed up thing I see about Ireland's citizenship policy is that it is easier for my mother, who has spent all of about 12 days in Ireland, to get citizenship that is is for a child who has lived in Ireland for 12 years, but whose parents are foreign, to get citizenship.
Valuing culture and ancestry and wanting to uproot your family to "rebuild" what is frankly a pretty ****ed up country at the moment are two completely different things. How many Irish Americans can tell you the name of the Taoiseach (or even pronounce taoiseach)? The names of the major political parties (other than Sinn Fein)? People don't give a **** about Irish politics, and if they do, it's interest in the politics of Northern Ireland - which, interestingly, seems to get less play in the Republic than it does in Boston or Chicago.
The Ryan Report has a hell of a lot to do with your cultural claims about Irish Americans. Irish-American Catholics responded COMPLETELY differently to Church abuse revelations than Irish Catholics did. Why? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT THE SAME.
I doubt 1 out of 100 Irish-Americans would actually know who any of the people you just mentioned are, with the possible exception of DeValera. And, by the way, where I'm from, we don't call it "gombeenary", we call it "clout".
Actually, if you want the diaspora to make a difference in domestic politics, then how about you allow Irish citizens living abroad to vote? THAT would have more of a political impact that making it easier for Americans to get Irish (i.e. EU) passports.
It won't. And, frankly, it shouldn't.
I can't believe how much contempt you have toward our Diaspora and particularly Americans, the only people who actually decided to have an established business presence here.... Why do think you even have a job in Ireland? If you aren't a Public Sector worker, where do you think the company that employs you comes from?..... America? More than likely to be
Most American Multi-nAtionals located here for two reasons.... One was because they had Irish-American Executives and the least important one was our geographical location between europe and the States.
The Ryan Report hasn't much to do with this thread... It is separate, but Irish-Americans in America have actually prosecuted the scum who committed the crimes or jailing those outside the church complicit in covering them up. That's only one difference... Accountability
Quite Frankly you give our Diaspora a lot less credit than they deserve...
P.S. That ***ked up Citizenship thing you complain about, we voted on it in 2004 because foreign nationals and illegal Immigrants/False Asylum Seekers arrived here in large numbers dishonestly to claim citizenship because their children were only born here.
Lastly, I'd rather have a system the EU Doesn't offer where we can actually restrict immigration... Base it on accepting people who are likely to integrate into our society.
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One Other Story to Note to show why the Euro is a bad thing for Ireland - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8614101.stm <Hungary looks set to swing right in polls>
"The far-right Jobbik party also looks set to capture seats in parliament for the first time.
Many Hungarian voters are thought to be driven by a sharp economic downturn.
The country has been badly hit by the global financial crisis, and has had to be bailed out with 20bn euros (£18bn) from the IMF, the World Bank and the EU. "0 -
The Corinthian wrote: »How many times do people have to point out that simplistic comparisons are meaningless. We are not Norway. We are not Switzerland.
Additionally one cannot simply look at salaries alone as a measure of wealth. Taxation and price index is also essential to any comparison - for this you would be better off looking at other indicators such as the Big Mac Index.
How can you compare salaries with any meaning, when the cost of of a supermarket stake in Madrid will cost you €6 and in Bern the same cut will cost you €12?
Most of us didn't get any remittances mate. We stayed and made a living in Ireland with 55%+ income tax and rampant protectionism as we sought (for ideological reasons) to become a self-sufficient agrarian nation. It was abandoning that moronic ideology that has freed us.
Where have others done so here?
You have repeatedly cited the importance of genetics to citizenship. While you have pointed out that many of the descendants of the Irish diaspora hold on to old Irish traditions, you have never suggested that their cultural integrity should be a consideration - only their blood.
Even your South African argument is laughable, in that by suggesting that by racially finding against South African whites as "genetically Europeans", you are somehow rejecting racialism - when ironically you are embracing it.
Defining national status by genetic ties alone is racialist. Full stop. You can huff and puff and try to dismiss this, but ultimately you cannot escape the fact that you are using racialist criteria for your definitions.
I think there should be a right to return to one's 'homeland' as long as it is one's 'homeland'. Realistically, by the time one has lived abroad for a few generations, without making any attempt to maintain those ties, then you really have to face the fact that it is no longer your 'homeland'.
Irish-Americans are not Irish. They may hold onto some of the old traditions of their forefathers, but Ireland moved on. And given a choice of citizenship, I doubt many would choose to lose their American citizenship for Irish.
You raised the issue of trade in relation to our membership of the Euro. If you wish to view those figures in terms of trade currencies, it does not take a genius to figure out that a third of all our trade is in the Euro, thus making it an attractive currency for us to have.
When you cite the UK and US, you bunch them together for some reason? Why? They are not the same country. They are members of different and competing trading blocs (of which we are a member of one). They have different currencies. The only thing they have in common is Anglophone culture, and tenuously at that.
Economically, you cannot bunch them together as a single trading partner - it makes no sense.
Additionally exchange rate fluctuations in the Euro would actually make no difference to our trade with other Eurozone countries, which constitute our single largest trade currency group.
You argument makes no sense, there is no logic behind it. You have taken some vague notion of the importance of monetary policy and the relative strength of currencies and ignored that while in leaving the Euro we would gain with some, but we would lose overall.
Greece could default, but it also may not - it's been the week link in the Eurozone from the start, as evidenced by their less than accurate accounting when entering it. Even if it does, this does not by any stretch mean the collapse of the Euro - for that to happen would take Germany, Italy or France leaving.
Firstly you are incorrect about Italy... It does allow Descendants to claim citizenship without restriction.
Italy became an official unified country in 1861 with a King and it was in 1870, when Rome was added to the state because the Italians booted out the french who occupied the Papal States until that time... Italian Law says that the descendents are eligible if the ancestor was born or died after 1861 and had italian citizenship/Nationality.
White South Africans are either Dutch, German, French, Irish, English or other European ancestry... so they are not African in origin or culture... They are basically a Diasporic expatriate community that have lived in exile for a few hundred years at most with no valid claim to land.
Finally this... The Irish Diaspora are the only Immigrant group I can think of whom would be most compliant and willing to integrate entirely into irish Society, because they are familiar with our culture and customs & would put alot of our own people to shame on how we take our own country for granted due to the selfish nature we developed in the Celtic Typhoid Years. So Genetics has little to actually do with this idea... Your Wild Imagination Maybe and Trouble Making when there is nothing of the sort possibly.
BTW... A Strong Euro is defined as an unfavourable exchange rate we have against the Pound Sterling and US Dollar along with any other currency of a nation we export goods and services to.
EFTA States can choose what EU Legislation they want to adopt if they wish; Switzerland may have allowed Romanians and other countries the right to work there but Swiss Law prevents them from Claiming Citizenship for a number of Years and doesn't succumb to PC Bully's telling them what to do.0 -
To correct you, the French garrison in Rome was recalled in 1870 due to the Franco-Prussian War - not booted out by anyone. Only after they left did Italian forces take Rome.Firstly you are incorrect about Italy... It does allow Descendants to claim citizenship without restriction.
Italy became an official unified country in 1861 with a King and it was in 1870, when Rome was added to the state because the Italians booted out the french who occupied the Papal States until that time...
I said that.Italian Law says that the descendents are eligible if the ancestor was born or died after 1861 and had italian citizenship/Nationality.
That you are judging on the basis of race.White South Africans are either Dutch, German, French, Irish, English or other European ancestry... so they are not African in origin or culture... They are basically a Diasporic expatriate community that have lived in exile for a few hundred years at most with no valid claim to land.
The only criteria you have suggested is genetic.So Genetics has little to actually do with this idea... Your Wild Imagination Maybe and Trouble Making when there is nothing of the sort possibly.
It is easier to become a Swiss citizen than an Irish one, so your point is a bit pointless.EFTA States can choose what EU Legislation they want to adopt if they wish; Switzerland may have allowed Romanians and other countries the right to work there but Swiss Law prevents them from Claiming Citizenship for a number of Years and doesn't succumb to PC Bully's telling them what to do.0 -
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I can't believe how much contempt you have toward our Diaspora and particularly Americans, the only people who actually decided to have an established business presence here.... Why do think you even have a job in Ireland? If you aren't a Public Sector worker, where do you think the company that employs you comes from?..... America? More than likely to be
Most American Multi-nAtionals located here for two reasons.... One was because they had Irish-American Executives and the least important one was our geographical location between europe and the States.
The Ryan Report hasn't much to do with this thread... It is separate, but Irish-Americans in America have actually prosecuted the scum who committed the crimes or jailing those outside the church complicit in covering them up. That's only one difference... Accountability
Quite Frankly you give our Diaspora a lot less credit than they deserve...
P.S. That ***ked up Citizenship thing you complain about, we voted on it in 2004 because foreign nationals and illegal Immigrants/False Asylum Seekers arrived here in large numbers dishonestly to claim citizenship because their children were only born here.
Lastly, I'd rather have a system the EU Doesn't offer where we can actually restrict immigration... Base it on accepting people who are likely to integrate into our society.
Wow, you definitely didn't read my original post. I AM A MEMBER OF THE IRISH DIASPORA... I am an AMERICAN whose mother is second-generation Irish. I am just TEMPORARILY living in Ireland, thanks to funding from the US government. My mother is one of those proud soda-bread baking, rebel-song singing Irish Americans who has considered applying for Irish citizenship for instrumental reasons (she works in IT), but doesn't know jack about Irish politics beyond the fact that THE ENGLISH SHOULD GET OUT OF THE NORTH!!! Her entire extended family, and the neighborhood she grew up in Chicago are like this...as are most of the Irish-Americans I knew from years of living in Boston.
Most multi-nationals located in Ireland because corporate taxes are low, it's English speaking, and it used to be cheap. If you think US corporations are in any way, shape or form nationalistic (American or Irish), there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
I was in Boston when the scandal broke with Cardinal Law, and I was in Dubin when the Ryan Report was released. Boston is probably the most "Irish" city in the US, and still the public response was as different as night and day. Again, this is a strong signal that Irish and Irish-Americans are not as culturally similar as you think.
Funny you mention illegal immigration...another key difference between the US and Ireland is that Americans hold birthright, civic citizenship to be sacred. Despite shrieking from the right, we are not going to change our constitution - despite MASSIVE levels of illegal immigration that dwarf the situation in Ireland. Yet the Irish voted to change their constitution after less than a decade of mass migration...once again, highlighting a significant cultural difference: Americans have a totally different concept of citizenship. I understand, given Ireland's history, why there are more tribalistic notions of national membership. But, frankly, if America was structured that way, there wouldn't be an Irish diaspora to speak of anyway.
Finally, you keep talking about the "diaspora" like they are some kind of monolith. However, after more than three generations of European migration, most families are "mixed": there's some Polish, some Italian, some Irish, etc. Again, I'm an example of this: my father is non-white, and let me tell you NOBODY in Ireland thinks I have any Irish blood in me. Even my 'fenian' mother has a German grandmother (and we have the chocolate cake recipes to prove it).
I will try to refrain from further comment, but I don't for the life of me understand why you have such faith in what is essentially an 'imagined community' of people who have few tangible links to Ireland beyond Paddy's Day frippery or naked economic interest.0
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