Why did God Create Us?

StealthRolex · 08-04-2010 5:26pm

Twin-go wrote: »

So without God there would be no morals?

Are ethics just as strong a barometer for human behavior as morals?

Only difference is the religious have the added treat of hell hanging over them. For those that only stop themselves doing wrong because the chance of eternal damnation, its pretty sad.

This is covered well in both Richard Dawkins -The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchins - God is not Great.

Without God we would have a society that presumably would favour altruism over selfisness. If not is is doubtful that we would be here now having this discussion having long since blown this world to kingdom come. Alternatively we would have degenerated into a hedonistic maelstrom and long since died of some nasty disease.

How stong a barometer ethics is when compared to faith and morals is a difficult one to answer as ethical arguments will no doubt be influenced by the morals of those debating the issues.
I hate to break it to you but the human record consistently shows more people who believe in a God or Gods of some description and take direction from them than there are atheists so the influence of religion is difficult to remove.

What's worse, for Atheists anyway, is that when enough people get together there is a good chance that in the absence of God they will invent the next best thing
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13983-religion-is-a-product-of-evolution-software-suggests.html

So, the Atheist goes up the mountain and like Moses comes down to find those he left behind have created something else to worship. They might even have invented a Heaven and Hell as moral deterents.

But to get back to your point - your contention is wrong, we don't not do things because a Hell exists, although it is a powerful deterent for some. We are all sinners and without redemption there is a chance we will go to Hell. Many if not all of us do sin and some more than others. Then we go to confession and promise not to do it again. But we do, so we go to confession again, each time in the hope of not committing sins or committing them less often
Science also has an answer for this. Those of us who buy some green (eco, not veggies) articles feel justified in doing or buying something else that is less eco friendly. This is in a recent NS but not one I can find at the moment.

The problem with Dawkins and Hitchins is that they never really took the time to understand religion before opting out so their arguments are less than compelling.
If you like, they don't understand their enemy so while they might win the occasional battle they will never win whatever war they think they are fighting.

StealthRolex · 08-04-2010 5:40pm

Twin-go wrote: »

We do not need a God for good to exit. God for me is just a distraction. A Fairy Tale used to explain things when our species was less deveoped. Also it probably developed out of a need to control populations as humans began goup in ever larger numbers. In smaller tribes shame of doing wrong would be a control. Shame was not such a factor in larger populations so all seeing Gods were created. The idea of God(s) then evolved to the monolistic belives of the last 5k -6k years.

Ah, you speak of the gods of old, of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Myans and all those other civilizations that no longer exist. It is accepted as proof that in the absence of a known God the human species will create their own. In their own image and likeness.

The problem with these gods is that they allowed for human sacrifice, slavery, torture, and all manner of things that were not good. You can pull a Godwin if you like and cite the Inquisition but that won't wash.

What we have now is a God who tells us that some things we think are good are actually bad. An "evolved" god or religion would not do that.

JimiTime · 08-04-2010 5:47pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

No worries - but I spotted something that's been niggling.

Your question "Why did God create evil as well as good?" implies God created good.

Well, He didn't. God is good. So God created neither good nor evil.

What an amazingly short concise piece of mind brilliance. It was a case of, 'how the heck did i never think of that' when I read that. Good is simply God. In fact, Jesus himself said it when he said, 'none is good but God'.

God is Good is not a description of God, its a description of what Good is objectively.

Good man SR, I love when these little pearls come to the fore.

Hagar · 08-04-2010 6:13pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

Ah, you speak of the gods of old, of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Myans and all those other civilizations that no longer exist. It is accepted as proof that in the absence of a known God the human species will create their own. In their own image and likeness.

The problem with these gods is that they allowed for human sacrifice, slavery, torture, and all manner of things that were not good. You can pull a Godwin if you like and cite the Inquisition but that won't wash.

What we have now is a God who tells us that some things we think are good are actually bad. An "evolved" god or religion would not do that.

Isn't a human sacrifice one of most essential parts of Christianity? So essential it is renacted every moment of every day across the globe?

Bugnug · 08-04-2010 6:16pm

Twin-go wrote: »

First I'll nail my colours to the mast, I am Athiest. I was raised Catholic. during my teenage years became Agnostic. In the last 5-7 years after doing a lot of thinking and research I realised I was in fact Athiest.

Now that is out of the way,
I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?
What is our pourpose?
Why did God create evil as well as good?
If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?
Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

I cannot answer any of these questions and they in part reinforce my non belief. If you can answer them, I am truly interested in your replies.

Thank you,

Twin-go

Not being smart with the short answer but there is no God, we were not created, we evolved and our purpose is to procreate, live moral lives as best we can and then we expire.

Fanny Cradock · 08-04-2010 6:25pm

Read the charter.

StormWarrior · 08-04-2010 6:30pm

Bugnug wrote: »

Not being smart with the short answer but there is no God, we were not created, we evolved and our purpose is to procreate, live moral lives as best we can and then we expire.

Why is our purpose to live moral lives if there is no god?

Bugnug · 08-04-2010 6:33pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Why is our purpose to live moral lives if there is no god?

Morals i.e values.

StormWarrior · 08-04-2010 6:55pm

Like what? And how is that a purpose?

Bugnug · 08-04-2010 7:00pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Like what? And how is that a purpose?

Read my post again carefully.

TravelJunkie · 09-04-2010 11:07am

Twin-go wrote: »

First I'll nail my colours to the mast, I am Athiest. I was raised Catholic. during my teenage years became Agnostic. In the last 5-7 years after doing a lot of thinking and research I realised I was in fact Athiest.

Now that is out of the way,
I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?
What is our pourpose?
Why did God create evil as well as good?
If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?
Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

I cannot answer any of these questions and they in part reinforce my non belief. If you can answer them, I am truly interested in your replies.

Thank you,

Twin-go

have you tried reading the creation thread from start to finish?

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 11:37am

StealthRolex wrote: »

Without God we would have a society that presumably would favour altruism over selfisness. If not is is doubtful that we would be here now having this discussion having long since blown this world to kingdom come. Alternatively we would have degenerated into a hedonistic maelstrom and long since died of some nasty disease.

These are massive presumptions. Without God we would of had no Crusades, Inquision, 9-11.

How stong a barometer ethics is when compared to faith and morals is a difficult one to answer as ethical arguments will no doubt be influenced by the morals of those debating the issues.
I hate to break it to you but the human record consistently shows more people who believe in a God or Gods of some description and take direction from them than there are atheists so the influence of religion is difficult to remove.

But which is the correct God? If you split the worlds population into it religious groups (Christian, Musliam, Judasim, Hinduism etc. etc.) The size of the Athiest population is probably comparrable to any of them.

What's worse, for Atheists anyway, is that when enough people get together there is a good chance that in the absence of God they will invent the next best thing
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13983-religion-is-a-product-of-evolution-software-suggests.html

This kind of reinforces my point of view. God was/is created because as a population we have a need to fill the gaps in what we understand

So, the Atheist goes up the mountain and like Moses comes down to find those he left behind have created something else to worship. They might even have invented a Heaven and Hell as moral deterents.

This kind of reinforces my point of view. God was/is created because as a population we have a need to fill the gaps in what we understand. The majority need a deterent or and incentive to not do/do things.

But to get back to your point - your contention is wrong, we don't not do things because a Hell exists, although it is a powerful deterent for some. We are all sinners and without redemption there is a chance we will go to Hell. Many if not all of us do sin and some more than others. Then we go to confession and promise not to do it again. But we do, so we go to confession again, each time in the hope of not committing sins or committing them less often.

Herein lies quite a big flaw in Christianity, people keep "sinning" there are no real conciquences as all you have to do is confess and be truly sorry and all is forgivin in the eyes of God. And yet, we all sin again. As long as you seek forgiveness and be truly sorry before you die you will be "saved".

Science also has an answer for this. Those of us who buy some green (eco, not veggies) articles feel justified in doing or buying something else that is less eco friendly. This is in a recent NS but not one I can find at the moment.

Yes, but these can be tangabile. Cleaner air, Less Land fill. There is nothing tangable with religion/God

The problem with Dawkins and Hitchins is that they never really took the time to understand religion before opting out so their arguments are less than compelling.
If you like, they don't understand their enemy so while they might win the occasional battle they will never win whatever war they think they are fighting.

Can you show me evidence of them not understanding religion? I think Hitchins in particular understands the "enemy", as you put it, very well.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 12:37pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Herein lies quite a big flaw in Christianity, people keep "sinning" there are no real conciquences as all you have to do is confess and be truly sorry and all is forgivin in the eyes of God. And yet, we all sin again. As long as you seek forgiveness and be truly sorry before you die you will be "saved".

Hmmm...have you tried reading the Bible or the Cathechism?

Firstly confession is a sacrament for Catholics, and when sins are committed there are consequences, both temporal and spiritual.

One of the benefits for Catholics is that confession is free and you don't need a confessional or a church - you can go to a priest and confess at any time. There still may be temporal consequences - the most obvious being the prescribed penance but this may also include making amends outside of the confessional and confessing to the police if the sin was particularly grievous.

Other forms of Christianity have alternatives but they are not sacramental and are not bound by a seal.

For an atheist the alternatives are expensive e.g. psychiatrists. They cannot discuss what you told them in confidence but they can and do charge for their services.

Secondly, the concept of going to confession with a plan to sin again negates the confession. We are minded not to sin but we are all sinners and try as we might the flesh is weak.

Lastly, Jesus came to save sinners. This could be read as only the sinners are saved but the truth is we must recognize that we are sinners, in thought and deed, in what we do and what we do not do, and seek the Saviour to be saved. Going to confession alone is not enough and Jesus did not have much time for those who said "I'm not a sinner".

The flaw in your argument is in picking one hole and playing with it. That might work when dealing with a scientific theory - all that is required is to disprove one element and the theory falls.
Science can only handle what we can perceive with a human mind.

This does not apply in religion and spirituality - here we seek the Truth while recognizing that as humans we are imperfect and flawed. The world of the spiritual goes beyond what our human minds can understand.

Hagar · 09-04-2010 12:57pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

One of the benefits for Catholics is that confession is free and you don't need a confessional or a church - you can go to a priest and confess at any time.There still may be temporal consequences - the most obvious being the prescribed penance but this may also include making amends outside of the confessional and confessing to the police if the sin was particularly grievous.

We call them Gardaí, and we're waiting...

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 1:16pm

Twin-go wrote: »

This kind of reinforces my point of view. God was/is created because as a population we have a need to fill the gaps in what we understand. The majority need a deterent or and incentive to not do/do things.

Of course it does because you think the God we believe in was created by us.

This is a little simplistic and ignores the core element in Christianity of self-sacrifice. This element proves that God is not something we created.

Self serving acts of altrusim are of no value. We must do things for others with no care or desire for what it brings to us.

If you like it is altruism for the sake of altrusim. Logically this is a dead end.
If you are altrusitic because it makes you feel good, look good or gets you dates it is of no value in Christianity.

A created or evolved god or religion would only require of us things we could understand.

This is a God who requires of us things we do not understand. The "Why Factor".
In almost all atheistic arguments there comes a point - the Godlose point (apologies to Godwin) - where there is no answer. The atheist asks a question that cannot be answered or a series of answers finally winds up with "I don't know why" and they (the atheists) think they have won.
Why? because the scientific equivalent is "we don't know why ... yet"

Yet Christians will get the answers when they die.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 1:29pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Can you show me evidence of them not understanding religion? I think Hitchins in particular understands the "enemy", as you put it, very well.

Their arguments are simplistic and based on misconceptions. Hitchens in particular bases his arguments on his observations on what members of a particular religion do and not on what God is about. Basically he plagiarizes previous theories and enjoys standing on the shoulders of dwarves.

if you want evidence, read one of his books then read Marx, and keep a Bible handy for reference.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 1:38pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Yes, but these can be tangabile. Cleaner air, Less Land fill. There is nothing tangable with religion/God

We should probably get back on track here and decide if we are discussing God or religion. Unless of course you mean Christianity when you type religion.

There is also much in science that is intangible. What existed before the Big Bang is intangible. Yet it is accepted.

The missing fossils in the fossil record are intangible. Yet the theory of evolution survives.

Radio waves are intangible without the neccessary tools to receive and decode.

The Unified Field Theory is intangible but this intangibleness cannot be used to say the science is wrong.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 1:47pm

Twin-go wrote: »

These are massive presumptions. Without God we would of had no Crusades, Inquision, 9-11.

So you counter with equally massive presumptions which are are probably corollaries of Godwins law?

Fanny Cradock · 09-04-2010 1:50pm

For a unique perspective on the Christopher Hitchens debate see here.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 2:08pm

Twin-go wrote: »

But which is the correct God? If you split the worlds population into it religious groups (Christian, Musliam, Judasim, Hinduism etc. etc.) The size of the Athiest population is probably comparrable to any of them.

God is God. We known Him through His Son.
All others are false gods.

As for numbers of atheists here is a guide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 2:33pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

For a unique perspective on the Christopher Hitchens debate see here.

Unique indeed, but rather biased I think.

Fanny Cradock · 09-04-2010 2:38pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Unique indeed, but rather biased I think.

Ha!
Speaking of bias (and who amongst us can claim to be completely impartial?) if his brother wasn't religious would you be as quick to dismiss his comments?

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 2:41pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

So you counter with equally massive presumptions which are are probably corollaries of Godwins law?

Difference is these events actualy happened and we either done in the name of God or to please God.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 2:42pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Unique indeed, but rather biased I think.

No more so than you are towards atheisim and we are towards Christ

mark renton · 09-04-2010 2:45pm

PDN wrote: »

Our purpose is to enjoy God and to love and glorify Him.

It seems your god may be a little egotistical PDN - would you agree?

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 2:59pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ha!
Speaking of bias (and who amongst us can claim to be completely impartial?) if his brother wasn't religious would you be as quick to dismiss his comments?

Sorry, but any comment from one sibbling about another would be biased and this artical is influenced by a lot more than their differing views of God and Religion.

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 3:16pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Difference is these events actualy happened and we either done in the name of God or to please God.

So? Jesus Christ actually happened too. Or do you wish to deny His existence as well?

I doubt He was best pleased with the Crusades, the Inquisitions or the current actions of militant Muslims but that's just my perspective.

The argument that without God bad things would not happen is nonsense. Nor is it a counter to my point that without God worse things would have happened.

Let me ask you this. What kind of world do you think you would be living in if there was no God?

Help me out here. Could you try to get a couple of paragraphs together so I can see where you are coming from as I seem to be providing you with lots of stuff that you split and counter with glib one-liners that fall far short of rebuttal.
Nothing personal and it may be just your style but this is a discussion thread, and your filaments give the impression that you are not truly interested in the answers you are getting.

I tend to enjoy discussions with atheists because they make me think and help deepen my faith but I'm not getting any exercise here.

Fanny Cradock · 09-04-2010 3:18pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Sorry, but any comment from one sibbling about another would be biased and this artical is influenced by a lot more than their differing views of God and Religion.

Fine. Dismiss it out of hand.

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 3:20pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

Of course it does because you think the God we believe in was created by us.

This is a little simplistic and ignores the core element in Christianity of self-sacrifice. This element proves that God is not something we created.

Self serving acts of altrusim are of no value. We must do things for others with no care or desire for what it brings to us.

If you like it is altruism for the sake of altrusim. Logically this is a dead end.
If you are altrusitic because it makes you feel good, look good or gets you dates it is of no value in Christianity.

A created or evolved god or religion would only require of us things we could understand.

This is a God who requires of us things we do not understand. The "Why Factor".
In almost all atheistic arguments there comes a point - the Godlose point (apologies to Godwin) - where there is no answer. The atheist asks a question that cannot be answered or a series of answers finally winds up with "I don't know why" and they (the atheists) think they have won.
Why? because the scientific equivalent is "we don't know why ... yet"

Yet Christians will get the answers when they die.

Christian self sacrafice and altruism are so similar. Its all about action and reward. One is reward in this life and one is reward in the possible "after Life"

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 3:25pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

So? Jesus Christ actually happened too. Or do you wish to deny His existence as well?

I doubt He was best pleased with the Crusades, the Inquisitions or the current actions of militant Muslims but that's just my perspective.

The argument that without God bad things would not happen is nonsense. Nor is it a counter to my point that without God worse things would have happened.

Let me ask you this. What kind of world do you think you would be living in if there was no God?

Help me out here. Could you try to get a couple of paragraphs together so I can see where you are coming from as I seem to be providing you with lots of stuff that you split and counter with glib one-liners that fall far short of rebuttal.
Nothing personal and it may be just your style but this is a discussion thread, and your filaments give the impression that you are not truly interested in the answers you are getting.

I tend to enjoy discussions with atheists because they make me think and help deepen my faith but I'm not getting any exercise here.

Just time constraints.

I'll write a more indept reply later today.

Twin-go · 09-04-2010 3:30pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Fine. Dismiss it out of hand.

I'm not dismissing it out of hard. It was an interesting artical. But Peter Hitchins himself says he never got along with his brother.

gbee · 09-04-2010 3:35pm

Twin-go wrote: »

I was raised Catholic.

First thing to do it forget everything you were taught. One must separate religion from faith.

Look at non Christian faiths and their practices, the Japanese, Hindus and Buddhism.

You will find many answers.

PDN · 09-04-2010 5:59pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

How to we have free will to decide whether to love someone? You either love them or you don't. It's not a conscious decision or a choice.

Love is a conscious decision and a choice.

I suggest you try reading some Victor Frankl (not a Christian btw). Frankl, as a Jew, was incarcerated in a concentration camp. He was denied food, clothing, warmth and dignity. Then he realised there was one thing his captors could never remove from him, they could never remove his essential freedom to forgive and love his tormenters, rather than hating them.

Unfortunately we live in an age where people have swallowed the lie that love is something that 'just happens to you'. Therefore people talk about falling in love, get married, and then justify themselves acting like selfish bastards and deserting their families because they 'just fell out of love'.

The Bible commands us to love one another, and we have the power to obey that command precisely because love is a choice and a decision. And when you choose to love those who seem to be unloveable, then you are getting close to who and what God really is.

JimiTime · 09-04-2010 6:27pm

^^ Great post PDN, great post!

StealthRolex · 09-04-2010 6:43pm

Twin-go wrote: »

Just time constraints. I'll write a more indept reply later today.

I look forward to it. In the meantime here are my answers to your questions:

Twin-go wrote: »

I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?

We do not think this, we believe this and we believe this because we believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through the Bible God has recorded the fact that He created the Universe, the Earth and all life on it.

Sometimes we try to prove this as a foil to those who present evolutionary theory as a fact that disproves the existence of God. Many of the proofs ( in the mathematical sense) involve the probability of life occurring spontaneously and while this could happen we believe the speed at which this happened and the complexity that arose on a planet that is "just right" implies that there was guidance from God.

Most of the time we just take it as a matter of Faith and the six days are six of God's days so it could have taken longer than the literal recording. It is also entirely possible that God created evolution to test our Faith.

Twin-go wrote: »

What is our pourpose?

Matthew 22:36-40

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Twin-go wrote: »

Why did God create evil as well as good?

God is good. So God created neither good nor evil.
Good exists because God exists, for those of us who believe in God, and evil exists because there are those in Gods creation that reject or avoid good.

I understand why this is a tough one for scientists and logicians who believe in equals and opposites and balance. God is beyond all that so the rules of science do not apply.

Twin-go wrote: »

If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?

If we saw Him we would die immediately. No one can see the face of God and live. He did however present Himself as His Son who walk the earth , died and rose again. His existence 2000 years ago is a recorded fact and His resurrection is a fact recorded in the Bible.

Twin-go wrote: »

Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

There isn't. At least not the faith I belong to. It may be that you're mixing up religion and faith with Freemasonry perhaps?. If you can give examples of the smoke and mirrors of which you type we can make a stab at a better response.

AMDG

Fanny Cradock · 09-04-2010 7:19pm

PDN wrote: »

Love is a conscious decision and a choice.

I suggest you try reading some Victor Frankl (not a Christian btw). Frankl, as a Jew, was incarcerated in a concentration camp. He was denied food, clothing, warmth and dignity. Then he realised there was one thing his captors could never remove from him, they could never remove his essential freedom to forgive and love his tormenters, rather than hating them.

Would that be Man's Search for Meaning? Or Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning?

Oz Guinness has mentioned Frankl before in passionate terms, and at this rate I'm going to have to turn into a bibliophile to get through the list of books I intend to read.

StealthRolex · 11-04-2010 2:29pm

Twin-go wrote: »

First I'll nail my colours to the mast, I am Athiest. I was raised Catholic. during my teenage years became Agnostic. In the last 5-7 years after doing a lot of thinking and research I realised I was in fact Athiest.

Now that is out of the way,
I would like you to explain why you think we were created by a God?
What is our pourpose?
Why did God create evil as well as good?
If God does exisit why does he just not come out and show us who he is?
Why does there have to be the smoke and mirrors around religion and faith?

I cannot answer any of these questions and they in part reinforce my non belief. If you can answer them, I am truly interested in your replies.

Thank you,

Twin-go

Just looking back at the start of this thread Twin-go and I can see where some confusion is arising. You entitled this thread " Why did God create us?" and then re-qualified the question in your OP as " Why do you think we were created by _a_ God?"

These are two completely different questions. The thread title is a valid theistic question but the actual question in your text is an athesitic question.

So to clarify - we were created by God to look after the Earth He created and to husband the animals and plants He created, to populate the Earth and subdue it in obedience to Him. This is what is recorded in Genesis.

Why we think we were created by _a_ God is simply because were are Christians and that is what we believe.
A better question could be "Do you believe we were created by God and why (- read "a god" for non-Judeo\Christian theists -)?
Going to the A&A forum and asking "why do you not believe we were created by a god?" or "why do you believe we were not created by God or a god?"may yield alternative responses.

Some take the Bible text of Genesis as literal, others take is as a guide for those yet to understand science and evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory is not denied by Christian theistic belief, indeed it supports it for in as there is much we do not yet understand from science it fills in the gaps. Convenient? Yes, and why not. What we understand from science we understand. What we do not yet understand we take in Faith. Much the same as the scientists who look to prove yet unproven theories - Big Bang, Evolution, Higgs-Boson, Grand Unified Theory etc.

Now if you have gone through your Catholic life asking one question while meaning to ask a different one and doing the same as an Agnoistic it is no wonder you are now a confused Atheist. You will never get the answer you desire unless you ask the right question and as such even Atheisim will soon become uncomfortable.

Or maybe Atheism is already uncomfortable which is why you ask the questions you do

Yours in Christ +

hughkane · 11-04-2010 2:42pm

http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/02977/atheist/putting-faith-in-its-place/

Explains it all.

hughkane · 11-04-2010 2:44pm

Also this will make you mad.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece

Twin-go · 11-04-2010 5:48pm

StealthRolex wrote: »

I look forward to it. In the meantime here are my answers to your questions:

We do not think this, we believe this and we believe this because we believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through the Bible God has recorded the fact that He created the Universe, the Earth and all life on it.

It is only a belief. There is no proof. You cannot use the bible as your proof for reasons I will go through later.
What you believe is, for the vast majority, a function of where you where born. If you were born in Iran you would probably believe in Islam. If you were born in Isreal you would probably be Jewish. It is really nothing to do with real faith just another cutural identifier.

Sometimes we try to prove this as a foil to those who present evolutionary theory as a fact that disproves the existence of God. Many of the proofs ( in the mathematical sense) involve the probability of life occurring spontaneously and while this could happen we believe the speed at which this happened and the complexity that arose on a planet that is "just right" implies that there was guidance from God.

Most of the time we just take it as a matter of Faith and the six days are six of God's days so it could have taken longer than the literal recording. It is also entirely possible that God created evolution to test our Faith.

Hang on, six days is six days and he needed a rest (proof of Gods lack of Omnipiency?)

. You are just twisting what is written the the book you believe in so much in order for it to fit in with the reality we now have scientific proof of. The world is more than 6000 years old. There were dinosoars. Evoloution is a fact.

Matthew 22:36-40

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

God is good. So God created neither good nor evil.
Good exists because God exists, for those of us who believe in God, and evil exists because there are those in Gods creation that reject or avoid good.

You have quoted the Bible to prove that God is good and God is love. I can also use the bible to prove God is hate and God is evil.

Slavery Allowed

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

One of God's Many Threats

If you refuse to obey all the terms of this law that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the LORD your God, then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your children with indescribable plagues. These plagues will be intense and without relief, making you miserable and unbearably sick. He will bring against you all the diseases of Egypt that you feared so much, and they will claim you. The LORD will bring against you every sickness and plague there is, even those not mentioned in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. Though you are as numerous as the stars in the sky, few of you will be left because you would not listen to the LORD your God. "Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in helping you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you, until you disappear from the land you are about to enter and occupy. For the LORD will scatter you among all the nations from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship foreign gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods made of wood and stone! There among those nations you will find no place of security and rest. And the LORD will cause your heart to tremble, your eyesight to fail, and your soul to despair. Your lives will hang in doubt. You will live night and day in fear, with no reason to believe that you will see the morning light. In the morning you will say, 'If only it were night!' And in the evening you will say, 'If only it were morning!' You will say this because of your terror at the awesome horrors you see around you. Then the LORD will send you back to Egypt in ships, a journey I promised you would never again make. There you will offer to sell yourselves to your enemies as slaves, but no one will want to buy you. (Deuteronomy 28:58-68 NLT)

So you quotes of Love are meaningless. You cannot take the bible as an a-la-cart menu of what to beleive and what not to believe.

I understand why this is a tough one for scientists and logicians who believe in equals and opposites and balance. God is beyond all that so the rules of science do not apply.

If we saw Him we would die immediately. No one can see the face of God and live. He did however present Himself as His Son who walk the earth , died and rose again. His existence 2000 years ago is a recorded fact and His resurrection is a fact recorded in the Bible.

Take a look at the video hughkane has linked to above. The burden of proof is with believers. To clam something is simply beyond science is not good enough.

There isn't. At least not the faith I belong to. It may be that you're mixing up religion and faith with Freemasonry perhaps?. If you can give examples of the smoke and mirrors of which you type we can make a stab at a better response.

AMDG

For one the the whole turning the bread and wine into the body and blood. That surely comes under the realms of magic and mysticisim. The whole workings of the Vatican are vailed in mystery. It is not an open and accountable orgainisation. Just look at all the cover-ups that have been happening and seem to reach all the way to the top.

Fanny Cradock · 11-04-2010 6:26pm

Twin-go wrote: »

It is only a belief. There is no proof. You cannot use the bible as your proof for reasons I will go through later.

We use the bible as evidence, not proof. You can't prove true a great number of things we all base our lives on, and that's why we operate on axioms. You can't prove that you mother loves you. However, through her actions you believe she does and you accept this.

Twin-go · 11-04-2010 10:45pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

We use the bible as evidence, not proof. You can't prove true a great number of things we all base our lives on, and that's why we operate on axioms. You can't prove that you mother loves you. However, through her actions you believe she does and you accept this.

This is a non agument, My Mother physicaly tells me she loves me. When does God physicaly tell you that he loves you?

PDN · 11-04-2010 11:30pm

Twin-go wrote: »

This is a non agument, My Mother physicaly tells me she loves me. When does God physicaly tell you that he loves you?

If you don't like people quoting the Bible as evidence for their beliefs then I suggest you avoid discussions in the Christianity forum.

Take a look at the video hughkane has linked to above. The burden of proof is with believers. To clam something is simply beyond science is not good enough.

No, if you come into the Christianity Forum making some kind of challenge to Christian beliefs then the burden of proof is plainly upon you.

Hang on, six days is six days and he needed a rest (proof of Gods lack of Omnipiency?) . You are just twisting what is written the the book you believe in so much in order for it to fit in with the reality we now have scientific proof of. The world is more than 6000 years old. There were dinosoars. Evoloution is a fact.

For the last time, if you want to discuss Creationism and evolution then takke it to the Creationism thread.

Fanny Cradock · 12-04-2010 12:50am

Twin-go wrote: »

This is a non agument, My Mother physicaly tells me she loves me. When does God physicaly tell you that he loves you?

Assuming I believed that she did tell you such things, I don't believe that your mother really means that she loves you. (And around we go...)

Listen, we all know how this ends. You don't believe in God so nothing I say - including my sharing any impassioned personal experience - will make any difference to you. You are an atheist. I accepted that. I've moved on. God still loves us.

StealthRolex · 12-04-2010 1:28am

Twin-go wrote: »

Hang on, six days is six days and he needed a rest (proof of Gods lack of Omnipiency?) . You are just twisting what is written the the book you believe in so much in order for it to fit in with the reality we now have scientific proof of. The world is more than 6000 years old. There were dinosoars. Evoloution is a fact.

There is interpretation and there is interpretation. The Bible also records that the span of a mans life had to be reduced to what we know today and records many who lived for hundreds of years. In that respect it is entirely acceptable to claim that one God day exceeds 24hrs.

There is no scientific proof of the Big Bang. There is circumstantial evidence and a goodly number of scientists who "believe" it happen. But there are no eye witness records. That said I have no problem with the world being older than 6000 years as I am neither Jewish nor a literal Bible bashing Protestant.
And I have no problem with the Big Bang theory. When God snaps His fingers there tends to be a Big Bang.

I have no problem with dinosaurs but again there are no eyewitnesses and the only "proof" we have is the fossil record which to an omnipotent God is easy to manipulate for reasons I have already expressed in terms of testing Faith.
If people want to believe in dinosaurs that's fine. I do. And I find no conflict between that and a believe and faith in God.

Evolution is a theory. As it is neither observable nor reproducible it cannot be a fact. It is however a widely accepted theory which is an entirely different animal. Get your facts right.

The fossil record is not contiguous and scientists are well known for "twisting" their theories to fit new evidence. It is what we do.

For what it's worth this Sunday's Gospel was quite apt. The doubting Thomas.

"You have seen and believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

StealthRolex · 12-04-2010 1:38am

Twin-go wrote: »

Take a look at the video hughkane has linked to above. The burden of proof is with believers. To clam something is simply beyond science is not good enough.

The video is primarily aimed at those who are trying to impose their beliefs on others so is more applicable to you. Remember, you came here looking for answers to questions. However you seem to ignore the answers and come across as more interested in grinding an axe. This is not an axe grinders forum.

StealthRolex · 12-04-2010 1:46am

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Listen, we all know how this ends. You don't believe in God so nothing I say - including my sharing any impassioned personal experience - will make any difference to you. You are an atheist. I accepted that. I've moved on. God still loves us.

Hi Fanny,

Have you ever wondered about atheists and money? All our currencies are linked one way or another to the US dollar which has "In God we Trust" written on it.

It seems strange that vegetarians and vegans can avoid meat and animal based products but atheists can't seem to do without something that claims an omnipotent God.

Just a thought. I'd really like to meet a few atheists who have divorced themselves for everything that claims God as a higher power

Herbal Deity · 12-04-2010 1:58am

StealthRolex wrote: »

Hi Fanny,

Have you ever wondered about atheists and money? All our currencies are linked one way or another to the US dollar which has "In God we Trust" written on it.

It seems strange that vegetarians and vegans can avoid meat and animal based products but atheists can't seem to do without something that claims an omnipotent God.

Just a thought. I'd really like to meet a few atheists who have divorced themselves for everything that claims God as a higher power

What?

ScissorPaperRock · 12-04-2010 2:20am

StealthRolex wrote: »

Hi Fanny,

Have you ever wondered about atheists and money? All our currencies are linked one way or another to the US dollar which has "In God we Trust" written on it.

It seems strange that vegetarians and vegans can avoid meat and animal based products but atheists can't seem to do without something that claims an omnipotent God.

Just a thought. I'd really like to meet a few atheists who have divorced themselves for everything that claims God as a higher power

Are you saying God is equal to money?

If that's not what you're saying, then how does atheists' use of money relate to anything?

Fanny Cradock · 12-04-2010 2:21am

StealthRolex wrote: »

Hi Fanny,

Have you ever wondered about atheists and money? All our currencies are linked one way or another to the US dollar which has "In God we Trust" written on it.

It seems strange that vegetarians and vegans can avoid meat and animal based products but atheists can't seem to do without something that claims an omnipotent God.

Just a thought. I'd really like to meet a few atheists who have divorced themselves for everything that claims God as a higher power

Not sure that is the atheists' fault.

Why did God Create Us?

Comments