Is the standard of the EPL in serious decline?

kinaldo

Also surely it's a good thing that clubs like Wolfsburg can still win their league while a team as shambolic as Bayern were last season can come back and knock out the English champions.

Morzadec

kinaldo wrote: »

Wolfsburg this season are clearly not the side they were last season, so the point is moot.

Disagree, the fact is they're the Champions of Germany and still have the same key players as they did last year as far as I know. Clearly they have declined somewhat, but to be losing at home to the team 12th in the EPL still shows there is a gulf in class between these leagues in my opinion. I take your point that Wolfsburg can no longer be considered Germany's top team, but surely a team like that should be putting Fulham to bed if the Bundesliga was anywhere near to the EPL.

Same goes for Juve who are 7th in Serie A

Helix

Morzadec wrote: »

losing at home to the team 12th in the EPL still shows there is a gulf in class between these leagues in my opinion

tbh, fulham are much better than their league position suggests

Morzadec

Helix wrote: »

tbh, fulham are much better than their league position suggests

Fair enough but could we say the same about Wolfsburg? (serious question I don't watch much Bundesliga)

Helix

ive no idea tbh, i dont watch german football at all

kinaldo

Morzadec wrote: »

Disagree, the fact is they're the Champions of Germany and still have the same key players as they did last year as far as I know. Clearly they have declined somewhat, but to be losing at home to the team 12th in the EPL still shows there is a gulf in class between these leagues in my opinion. I take your point that Wolfsburg can no longer be considered Germany's top team, but surely a team like that should be putting Fulham to bed if the Bundesliga was anywhere near to the EPL.

Same goes for Juve who are 7th in Serie A

So you're basically judging the strength of the Bundesliga based on their 9th placed team's performances against Fulham. Right.

Sure Fulham beat Liverpool and Man Utd too, what does that say, declining standards in England perhaps?

Morzadec

kinaldo wrote: »

So you're basically judging the strength of the Bundesliga based on their 9th placed team's performances against Fulham. Right.

Sure Fulham beat Liverpool and Man Utd too, what does that say, declining standards in England perhaps?

No I don't wish to judge a Leagues strength on a single match, but let's be honest Fulham aren't even a '2nd tier' (Spurs, Villa, etc...) EPL team, and from what I have seen they are outplaying and beating a team that would be considered a 'top team' in Germany who are as far as I can tell playing at full strength.

I know snap reactions to single matches don't prove anything and I'm not going to say that this single match PROVES anything, but I certainly feel that it is symptomatic of my belief that the English League is considerably stronger than the German. Wolfsburg put 4 past Hoffenheim at the weekend who are placed in a similar position in the League to Fulham, yet they can't get one tonight.

I understand the idea behind not basing large sweeping opinions on single matches, but that is how this thread started, and I was merely pointing out that the Fulham vs Wolfsburg match is perhaps more exemplary of the real gulf in class between the EPL and the Bundesliga.

Out of interest do you think that the two leagues are on level playing fields or do you just take issue with me using the Fulham WOlfsburg match as an example?

kinaldo

Morzadec wrote: »

No I don't wish to judge a Leagues strength on a single match, but let's be honest Fulham aren't even a '2nd tier' (Spurs, Villa, etc...) EPL team, and from what I have seen they are outplaying and beating a team that would be considered a 'top team' in Germany who are as far as I can tell playing at full strength.

I know snap reactions to single matches don't prove anything and I'm not going to say that this single match PROVES anything, but I certainly feel that it is symptomatic of my belief that the English League is considerably stronger than the German. Wolfsburg put 4 past Hoffenheim at the weekend who are placed in a similar position in the League to Fulham, yet they can't get one tonight.

I understand the idea behind not basing large sweeping opinions on single matches, but that is how this thread started, and I was merely pointing out that the Fulham vs Wolfsburg match is perhaps more exemplary of the real gulf in class between the EPL and the Bundesliga.

Out of interest do you think that the two leagues are on level playing fields or do you just take issue with me using the Fulham WOlfsburg match as an example?

I think the Bundesliga, while it doesn't have as much quality as the EPL does in their top tier of teams, is far healthier overall. Their attendances are fantastic, their clubs are performing in Europe, they're not crippled by debt, and a minnow club like Wolfsburg can still come out on top.

Morzadec

kinaldo wrote: »

I think the Bundesliga, while it doesn't have as much quality as the EPL does in their top tier of teams, is far healthier overall. Their attendances are fantastic, their clubs are performing in Europe, they're not crippled by debt, and a minnow club like Wolfsburg can still come out on top.

Healthier? Yes
Better fans? Hard to argue against that, the atmosphere always look fantastic and fans can go and watch their teams at affordable prices.

I agree the Bundesliga looks a great League to follow for all the above reasons you stated and I won't argue against that, but the argument here simply is which is better in terms of footballing quality and ability.

In my opinion, for all of the Bundesliga's commendable attendances and debt management and all the other off the pitch stuff, the League is not as strong as the Premiership when it comes to football.

Crisis over, crisis over.

2 english clubs in Europa semis

Mr. Presentable

In resp of the OP, which point appears lost in a session of chest-beating nonsense, no. But it may have peaked its cycle.

me-skywalker

nuxxx wrote: »

Imo the domination of the past few seasons by English teams is truly over and the power now lies in Spain

talk about over-kill... a period of dominance can only be over after a period not after one season and since no other country has stepped up to 'dominate' then there can only be one conclusion that no English dominance is not over, yet, give it 2 or 3 years then we can really tell.


Lets see how Liverpool manage against Athelico and Fulham against another German team....

m@cc@

Ush1 wrote: »

Those using the CL as a gauge, the Uefa Cup doesn't back up their theory of English dominance.

Think about what you've just said. If English clubs are getting to the latter stages of the CL, guess which competition they don't get entered into.

Plus I think it's been shown that more than one English club see it as nothing more than a tin pot.

Ush1

What are you talking about? You saying English teams dont play in the uefa cup?

Le King

Ush1 wrote: »

What are you talking about? You saying English teams dont play in the uefa cup?

It's the Europa League now. A much more coveted trophy...

grenache

Who gives a fcuk! The Championship is where its at, where the last team can beat the team top of the league on any given day. A far more exciting and interesting division than the boring, predictable, lame Premier League.

me-skywalker

grenache wrote: »

boring, predictable, lame Premier League.

You mean the league where any 1 of 3 can win the title. Any 1 of 4 can finish in a Champions League place. A newly promoted team are in the top 10. 2 of 6 teams are fighting in the relegation battle. The bottom team are in the semi of the domestic cup. Boring? Predictable? I think not.

m@cc@

Ush1 wrote: »

What are you talking about? You saying English teams dont play in the uefa cup?

I'm saying most English teams don't give it the same priority. It's like a European version of the League Cup to them.

stovelid

It's time for UEFA to go back to the drawing board. All four EPL teams being knocked out of the CL by the semis on merit is an outrageous state of affairs. Thankfully there is some Superior Football Product left to support in Barca but what happens if they don't make the final!!??

The Frog better consider automatic qualification for the top 6 EPL teams and the winners of the FA cup (and a bye for the group stages) next season?

Ush1

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'm saying most English teams don't give it the same priority. It's like a European version of the League Cup to them.

So your excuse is they aren't really trying? What's to say teams from other leagues don't look at it the same way?

Mitch Connor

I think this has been a bad year for the previous top 4. None of them have performed to standard. United and Chelsea may still be occupying the top two spots but the results have been a lot worse this season, a lot more defeats.

However, I do think their has been an increase in the quality of the upper/mid table sides which has contributed to this. City are better than they were, as are Spurs, Everton, Villa and Fulham - those sides have improved which has made it tougher for the 'big sides'.

So while I do think United, for example, are not quite as good as last season, I also think that other sides have improved significantly. Overall, I would say the standard of the premiership is still quite high, and I would not be surprised if 2 premiership sides made the Champions League semi-finals next year.

keane2097

Teams from England making the latter stages of the CL repeatedly distorts the data wrt English clubs appearing in the latter stages of the EL.

It's simple - if United's best four teams consistently reach the QF, SF and Final of the CL they are not getting knocked out in the Group Stages and entering the EL.

This has been happening with teams from every other country, and it means that other leagues have a stronger calibre of teams playing in the EL.

This year is the first year in a while that one of the English entries to the CL has been knocked out in the group stages, and here they are in the semi-final of the EL, which sort of points to what I'm saying.

me-skywalker

First of all the FA should consider getting rid of the League Cup its a mickey mouse cup everybody knows it. It would increase the value of the FA cup and make everybody take that serious again. Also would decrease the amount of matches thus limiting injuries to players while allowing more breaks between matches especially after midweek games. Which would thus improve the standard of the EPL teams in the Champions League and in the Europa League, while it would also allow a bit more breather for the players in a World Cup year and maybe then England will have a chance to win it with a fully fit squad and not over-tired.

Catenaccio!

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? I reckon you just posted this to make it look like you're "in the know" :rolleyes:

Lolz, no, no. I've been hearing about it for some time now. Jonathan Wilson used to talk about it a while back. It's all set up and ready to go over there - High quality stadiums, high attendances, good financial structure etc. I suppose they just need tv money and all that jazz and then the money will be there.

This may be a bit of a iffy article but there's loads out there if you use google.

http://www.trulyreds.com/20100330/bundesliga-model-may-show-the-way-ahead/

keane2097

Catenaccio! wrote: »

Lolz, no, no. I've been hearing about it for some time now. Jonathan Wilson used to talk about it a while back. It's all set up and ready to go over there - High quality stadiums, high attendances, good financial structure etc. I suppose they just need tv money and all that jazz and then the money will be there.

This may be a bit of a iffy article but there's loads out there if you use google.

http://www.trulyreds.com/20100330/bundesliga-model-may-show-the-way-ahead/

The biggest problem with that is that Germany is less attractive as a country than the likes of Italy or Spain.

historically the German league has been mainly populated with players from Germany itself, nearby "Eastern Block" countries and Turks (there being a huge Turkish population in Germany afaik).

Can you see rafts of Italians, Spanish, even English players heading to Germany in the next ten years?

I can't tbh.

JPA

keane2097 wrote: »

The biggest problem with that is that Germany is less attractive as a country than the likes of Italy or Spain.

historically the German league has been mainly populated with players from Germany itself, nearby "Eastern Block" countries and Turks (there being a huge Turkish population in Germany afaik).

Can you see rafts of Italians, Spanish, even English players heading to Germany in the next ten years?

I can't tbh.

Italians generally stay in Italy, same as English. Spanish as well although a fair few move abroad. But that's just 3 countries.
Africans, South Americans and the rest of europe will go where the money is.

Catenaccio!

keane2097 wrote: »

The biggest problem with that is that Germany is less attractive as a country than the likes of Italy or Spain.

historically the German league has been mainly populated with players from Germany itself, nearby "Eastern Block" countries and Turks (there being a huge Turkish population in Germany afaik).

Can you see rafts of Italians, Spanish, even English players heading to Germany in the next ten years?

I can't tbh.

Depends if the money is there. That's basically what I'm saying though - it's all set up. I'd say in five years time there'll be a big difference. Could be wrong but they're in the best position to take over.

keane2097

Catenaccio! wrote: »

Depends if the money is there.

To a point it does.

With the very top tier of players however there will always be options.

You'll never have a situation where a Kaka or a Drogba has only got the option of staying put or going to one other country.

Clubs will always be in the market for the biggest and best, and I'd be very surprised if we see huge names heading off to the Bundesliga.

Maybe I'll be proved wrong (although that's never happened before :pac:)

Catenaccio! wrote: »

That's basically what I'm saying though - it's all set up. I'd say in five years time there'll be a big difference. Could be wrong but they're in the best position to take over.

I'm sure you're correct about them being extrmemly well managed on and off the pitch. I wouldn't be surprised to see them improve over the next few years on te European level.

I'm not convinced they'll ever be the dominant force however, mainly for the above reason.

dfx-

BastardPrince wrote: »

lol those results happen in la liga too

havent looked through the rest of the teams though...

It is the equivalents of Spurs/Citeh/Villa/Everton handing out/suffering those results which is the point. Xerez, Tenerife and Valladolid will be slaughtered by the top two, i.e. 5-1++. Valencia/Sevilla/Athletic on the other hand..

That list wasn't exhaustive..as well as adding Chelsea's other 7 goal haul; a 7-2 win against Sunderland. Teams, mid-table teams, challenging big 4 teams roll over.

Mr. Presentable

keane2097 wrote: »

Clubs will always be in the market for the biggest and best, and I'd be very surprised if we see huge names heading off to the Bundesliga.






I'm not convinced they'll ever be the dominant force however, mainly for the above reason.

It happened before. That's where Keegan had his best years.

IMHO the only thing to prevent Germany having the global standing of England or Spain is language. All other things being equal, accessibility through a common language is a huge bonus

grenache

me-skywalker wrote: »

You mean the league where any 1 of 3 can win the title.

The same 3 every year. How interesting!

me-skywalker wrote: »

Any 1 of 4 can finish in a Champions League place.

The same 4 every year. How exciting!

me-skywalker wrote: »

A newly promoted team are in the top 10. 2 of 6 teams are fighting in the relegation battle.

Steady on now, you don't want to totally blow my mind! :pac:

me-skywalker wrote: »

The bottom team are in the semi of the domestic cup. .

That just means the FA is exciting, not the PL.

Catenaccio!

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? I reckon you just posted this to make it look like you're "in the know" :rolleyes:

Major fail

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league


Maybe you'll be "in the know" now Mr. Rollyeyes.

m@cc@

grenache wrote: »

The same 3 every year. How interesting!

As opposed to the same two in La Liga every year? 24 points separating Real in 2nd and Valencia in 3rd. How interesting!