Non-believers

Maximilian

Stephentlig wrote: »

Why does it matter? Why is it any more neccesary to go after the undisprovable God, rather than after undetectable teapots or unicorns? One obvious answer would be that the number of people who beleive in undetectable teapots or invisible intangible, inaudible unicorns is negligible, but the number of people that believe in God is nearly uncountable.

It matters because the truth matters. There is simply no reason to 'go after' outer space teapot worshipers because they patently don't exist. Actually if they did, I wonder would they be blowing themselves up on airplanes full of heathen subterranean espresso machine worshipers?

Once, an uncountable number of people believed the world was flat. Even now, a bunch of nutters want to teach children the world is 6000 years old. A vast number of people believe in homeopathy, that breaking mirrors gives you bad luck, curses, horoscopes and what not. Mere belief in such or the numbers of people that do does not render it true in the absence of proof or evidence.

Look this is pointless. Let's just agree to disagree or just plain disagree anyway.

PDN, I'm sorry I dragged thread off topic. I doubt I'll be posting here anytime soon, if it makes you feel better

philologos

Indeed, the truth does matter. This is why Christians argue for their position, and share their faith with others, because the truth matters, and it is hugely important.

I still think it's a huge leap on your part to imply that God patently doesn't exist. There are numerous reasons why one would believe in God. One of them being accounting for what exists, and indeed, why there is something rather than nothing.

For however long this possibility is open, so is the possibility that this world was caused by a being higher than ourselves. The argument is as open as it ever was, and there is no reason to dismiss the possibility as fiction. That's why people still believe, and find it reasonable to do so.

Indeed, this thread has become a rather different one from what it was originally intended to be

Stephentlig

Maximilian wrote: »

It matters because the truth matters. There is simply no reason to 'go after' outer space teapot worshipers because they patently don't exist. Actually if they did, I wonder would they be blowing themselves up on airplanes full of heathen subterranean espresso machine worshipers?

Once, an uncountable number of people believed the world was flat. Even now, a bunch of nutters want to teach children the world is 6000 years old. A vast number of people believe in homeopathy, that breaking mirrors gives you bad luck, curses, horoscopes and what not. Mere belief in such or the numbers of people that do does not render it true in the absence of proof or evidence.

Look this is pointless. Let's just agree to disagree or just plain disagree anyway.

PDN, I'm sorry I dragged thread off topic. I doubt I'll be posting here anytime soon, if it makes you feel better

But heres the catch, if the truth matters to you then why dont you reject the idea that there isnt a God, since you cant prove he doesnt exist? you either believe and see him in the evidence of what he has created and listen to the thousands of witnesses down through the centuries including witnesses who have been cured through faith of their illnesses such as cancer etc etc... or you can put your blind faith into the powers of chance and the whimsical rhetorical intelligently stupid sayings of people such as dawkins.

I'm gonna have to abandon this as well, lets agree to disagree, I've planted the seed and I shall pray for it to grow.

its not easy speaking to people who have already made their mind up and are convinced and put their faith into someone elses argument that God doesnt exist.

God bless and take care
Stephen

strobe

I don't think there is any one Bible passage or quote that would convert me. I've read it straight through twice but chances are there is a passage I skipped over too quickly, so you never know. But my favourite is probably the most famous, the golden rule, "Do to no one what you yourself dislike."

I was slightly thrown when someone told me it doesn't say "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" in the bible. But the biblical equivalent amounts to the same thing. So yeah, that's my favourite and the one I try to live my life by. There are many many others I love, but none of them alone would make me believe in the Christian version of God.

Cool thread though.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What? An atheist is simply somebody who rejects the existence of the divine. Nothing more.

Well yes, that is my point. Atheism covers a huge range of people who can have very different views on a whole host of stuff, because it is simply someone who rejects the existence of the divine.

Saying PDN was an atheist and Wicknight is an atheist is some what pointless if someone is trying to compare the two.

Which is why people come out with the rather inaccurate "true" atheist idea. I agree that is nonsense, but I also recognize the underlying point that the person is trying to get to, the idea of atheist as naturalistic/skeptic/rationalists.

Zombrex

Stephentlig wrote: »

But heres the catch, if the truth matters to you then why dont you reject the idea that there isnt a God, since you cant prove he doesnt exist?

Most of the regulars on the A&A, which I think represents a good cross section of the wider atheist community (if there is such a thing) don't hold to the idea that there isn't a creator intelligence. We couldn't tell if there was.

What they hold to is the idea that theism is the product of the human mind. And there is tons of evidence for that (which we don't need to hash over again cause it is in a number of other threads)

People imagine things, people imagine religions. We know this happens. No one has put forward a reason, to any sort of proper standard, why Christianity is a special case in this regard, why the most likely explanation is in fact the wrong one.

It is really that simply.

PDN

TheColl wrote: »

Thanks for staying on-topic people :rolleyes:

Was actually hoping to get a few interesting responses. Instead it seems to have descended into the typical Christianity v atheism sh!t3.

Next time it might be better to put a "Christian Response Only" tag on the OP - it acts as a cyber air marshall to keep the hijackers from boarding.

Zombrex

TheColl wrote: »

Thanks for staying on-topic people :rolleyes:

Was actually hoping to get a few interesting responses. Instead it seems to have descended into the typical Christianity v atheism sh!t3.

You asked what would a Christians say to convert a non-believer and you are surprised it become a discussion between Christians and atheism. Really?

How in your head did you see this thread going

You could see the way this thread was going to go from the start, the Christians were either going to say that they wouldn't say anything, being a Christian is about inner knowledge of God, or they were going to say something like quote a Bible and the atheists were going to point out that this wouldn't convert them in a million years.

Sometimes I think these threads are only started so people can complain about "trolls"/"hi-jackers"/"rabbit holes" :rolleyes:

Kirby

No one line would ever convince anybody. Thats obvious. One line won't make a person "think" either. A long conversation or experience might for some people.

The thing thats the main detractor for me is us. Everything you know about God and religion has been taught to you. By people. And they were taught. By other people. And the Bible was written. By people. It is flawed and has hundreds of contradictions as evidenced by this. It didn't appear from the sky in a ray of light. It was written with ink. On paper. Now you might argue that God worked through them to write it. But if he does exist, why should we have to write about it? Shouldn't we just know?

We are born with the Knowledge of how to swim for example. It's instinct. Its in our genes. You weren't born with knowledge of god and the bible. You were told about it. And you just assume its correct because thats what people are telling you.

You are also told the earth is a sphere and isn't flat. Now you don't know that when you are born. You are told. So in some ways it's the exact same. But you can see the earth is round from space....see it with your own eyes. You don't need faith.

People are visual creatures. If a bonafied miracle occurred, 95% of people would instantly agree on the matter. But it's never happened. Good things have happened and people can choose to believe they are the work of God. But its conjecture. Mountains haven't been moved, sea's havent been parted. Cities haven't been saved from earthquakes and Volcanoes. People argue that we exist. Therefore a supreme godlike being must exist. Why would a being like that need to "work through us" or hide from us?

And thats why one line would never cause me to question my take on God and Religion. That line was written by a man just as flawed as I am.

TheColl

PDN wrote: »

Next time it might be better to put a "Christian Response Only" tag on the OP - it acts as a cyber air marshall to keep the hijackers from boarding.

Plenty of those hijacking the thread seem to have been people with Christian perspectives.

Wicknight wrote: »

You asked what would a Christians say to convert a non-believer and you are surprised it become a discussion between Christians and atheism. Really?

How in your head did you see this thread going

You could see the way this thread was going to go from the start, the Christians were either going to say that they wouldn't say anything, being a Christian is about inner knowledge of God, or they were going to say something like quote a Bible and the atheists were going to point out that this wouldn't convert them in a million years.

Sometimes I think these threads are only started so people can complain about "trolls"/"hi-jackers"/"rabbit holes" :rolleyes:

Yes I started a thread to complain about trolls. Well done.

I started the thread to hear what passages/quotes etc Christians would see as having some sort of chance of making a non-believer question themselves somewhat. I didn't ask for non-believers to come on and say "nope that didnt work for me". Perhaps the "Christian response only" tag would have been a good idea after all.

EDIT: By the way, thanks to those who actually made posts that addressed my question.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

You asked what would a Christians say to convert a non-believer and you are surprised it become a discussion between Christians and atheism. Really?

How in your head did you see this thread going

You could see the way this thread was going to go from the start, the Christians were either going to say that they wouldn't say anything, being a Christian is about inner knowledge of God, or they were going to say something like quote a Bible and the atheists were going to point out that this wouldn't convert them in a million years.

Sometimes I think these threads are only started so people can complain about "trolls"/"hi-jackers"/"rabbit holes" :rolleyes:

Actually, for Christians, most 'unbelievers' are not atheists. They are nominal Catholics, new-agers, Muslims and a whole bunch of people who live a secular life with no fixed views on religion or God.

The problem is that a small minority of unbelievers (atheists) are the most vocal and so think everything is about them - thereby pretty well dragging us down the same old arguments and preventing us discussing how we would share our faith with everybody else.

Zombrex

TheColl wrote: »

I didn't ask for non-believers to come on and say "nope that didnt work for me".

And you didn't ask not for that either. This is a discussion forum, the idea that you wouldn't want input from the people you are discussing is not immediately obvious :rolleyes:

TheColl

Wicknight wrote: »

And you didn't ask not for that either. This is a discussion forum, the idea that you wouldn't want input from the people you are discussing is not immediately obvious :rolleyes:

Missing the point of my question :rolleyes:

Zombrex

TheColl wrote: »

Missing the point of my question :rolleyes:

You didn't explain the point of your question, you just asked it.

looksee

How can you say 'Christian answers only' about something that involves non-Christians? Are you saying that you just want a cosy chat where everyone agrees with each other and you convince yourselves that you can save the world? Suggesting that there could be a single phrase that could convert people sounds very much like looking for a magic spell.

I had a very positive experience of Christianity - as a child I attended Sunday School. As I got older I attended church at least once on a Sunday. I was a Sunday School teacher. I belonged to several social groups. I had a great experience and social life until I was 21, when I went abroad. However, as I got older I gradually realised that my interest in religion was mostly social and that I did not genuinely believe what I was singing and praying. I felt quite guilty about it, but I could not convince myself to believe.

I was introduced to Catholicism, and felt that maybe it had something, but again I gradually realised that a. the Catholic Church had no interest in me, in fact it apparently despised me, and b. religion in Ireland was as much a political choice as a spiritual one.

So now, while I am sympathetic to a general concept of a supreme influence, and mildly interested in the subject, I do not consider myself religious. I am mostly unconvinced about is (man-made) theology, and the argument 'but the Bible says so, so that proves it'. So no phrase from the Bible is going to bring me round, because I do not believe there is anything to be brought round to.

I have no problem with people who believe, good luck to them, one can in a way envy their security in their belief. But wars, cruelty, violence and brainwashing have resulted from a desire to spread the message of love. People have taken it on themselves to decide what God wants and have often concluded that any means may be taken to achieve that end.

I believe there is a void in human minds created by the things we do not know, the fear of the unknown and the questions of why and how we are here. This has resulted in every society creating answers for themselves. If someone thinks through the great questions and comes to conclusions that satisfy him, then he needs other people to confirm his beliefs by accepting the same things, and people are willing to accept what they are told for the security it provides. So you get a useful willing symbiosis of people who like the authority and power, and people who want a pattern to live by. It is so much easier to be told what to do than to figure things out for yourself, and there is a strong desire in most people to be part of a group. It seems to me that this is the basis of our society, and as such is a positive influence.

Maybe there is some sort of instinct that makes people want to bring other people round to their way of thinking, in order to strengthen the bond of society. In that case I suppose all belief systems serve a useful purpose and it accounts for the proselytizing that most of them do.

philologos

The thread is about how Christians would share the Gospel with those who don't believe in the Gospel. That could include Muslims, Jews, Sikhs etc as well as atheists or agnostics. A lot of people seem to think when they hear the term non-believer it refers just to atheists.

So the Christian-only tag would be perfectly acceptable.