Finland's education system: something for Ireland to aspire to?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How exactly do you define a "qualified expert"?

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

Overheal

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

Having said that, Jamesie O'Connor knows his sh*t about Economics, speaking as a former pupil.

Miss Lockhart

Overheal wrote: »

Have someone who did a Major in History teach history. Etc.

Universities typically require you have a Phd in order to profess a subject, correct? Make that a standard across the board.

Most professors have a Phd maybe, but only one of my college lecturers had one. They were excellent lecturers though.

mariaalice

i suppose well paid is relative to where you live ...anyway it wouldn't work..you cant impose one culture on another ...in other word there are culturally specific reasons why the finish systme works in Finland and probably wouldn't work in an other culture

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Overheal wrote: »

Having said that, Jamesie O'Connor knows his sh*t about Economics, speaking as a former pupil.

Which is probably why he was appointed to do the job.

mariaalice wrote: »

i suppose well paid is relative to where you live ...anyway it wouldn't work..you cant impose one culture on another ...in other word there are culturally specific reasons why the finish systme works in Finland and probably wouldn't work in an other culture

Nothing to do with culture. Unless their culture is open-minded and sensible and the idea woudln't work because ours... isn't.

RonMexico

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Most professors have a Phd maybe, but only one of my college lecturers had one. They were excellent lecturers though.

Fookin hell what college was that:eek: A Ph.D is required for almost any lecturing position at a college now.

JuliusCaesar

Overheal wrote: »

Have someone who did a Major in History teach history. Etc.

Universities typically require you have a Phd in order to profess a subject, correct? Make that a standard across the board.

Possessing a PhD doesn't make you a teacher... it makes you an expert (for a short while) in a tiny part of your field. It also give you a lot of research experience, which helps you help PhD students do theirs. Pedogy is the science of teaching, which secondary teachers do in their PGDipEd. Most, not all, 3rd level teachers aka lecturers (or professors in the US) will have PhDs; all of them will have at least a Masters.

Secondary teachers are required to have a degree in the subject that they teach, with a PGDip Ed on top of that.

Hank_Jones

Overheal wrote: »

Mmmmmm.......- In fairness, Ireland is often cited as the Model for the public smoking ban.

We may have been the first in Europe to adopt it, but we were just copying the Americans.

California, Florida and New York had all implemented smoking bans before we ever did.

We were really swayed by New York banning smoking in 2003.
This ban drove our government to follow suit.
We certainly weren't leading the way...

Donkey Oaty

Hank_Jones wrote: »

We may have been the first in Europe to adopt it, but we were just copying the Americans.

California, Florida and New York had all implemented smoking bans before we ever did.

And the Americans were just copying what Ottoman Sultan Murad IV did in 17th century Istanbul.

I bet the Finnish kids would have known that.

DublinWriter

If you really want to improve the Irish educational system, then ban 'Peig' tomorrow and then all the kids will be into it.

Honestly, Peig Sawers did more to destroy the Irish language in thirty years than the British ever managed with three-hundred years of penal laws.

Capt'n Midnight

Isn't something like 85% of spending on education here on teachers wager ?

Just means that it going to massively increase the bill.

What are class sizes in Finland ?


We need to pump money into primary education , since you get the most value there.

Capt'n Midnight

My name is URL wrote: »

Teachers should be qualified experts in whatever subject they're teaching too.. not just able to apply a generic syllabus

on http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/ you can download the current list of recognised post-primary qualifications and subject criteria.

bonerm

Finland. Greatest country on Earth it would seem.

They even kicked USSR's arse in WW2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala

Donkey Oaty

Good article here from 2008 in the Sunday Business Post about the lessons Ireland might learn from the Finnish Education system.


http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/11/09/story37394.asp

There was one thing I found very surprising - in Finland, society trusts teachers and schools and there are no annual national tests or inspector systems.

E.T.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Isn't something like 85% of spending on education here on teachers wager ?

Just means that it going to massively increase the bill.

What are class sizes in Finland ?


We need to pump money into primary education , since you get the most value there.

I'd love to see your reference for that 85% "fact" - can't find anything remotely like it on the web.

K-9

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They used to do that, it worked out pretty well in terms of gearing students up for science and engineering courses. The problem was it got insanely difficult towards the end, so much so that university level maths students would have a hard time with it (as I recall). Not sure why that happened.

Heres another few ideas:

I think we could definetely learn a lot from the Finnish system however - I particularly like the idea of a second teacher in the classroom (tutor or trainee teacher maybe?)

I remember that, Jaysus Honours Maths was tough.

I'd love to see trainee teachers in the classroom, helping out. Nurses do it in the Health System. Can't see why not.

K-9

E.T. wrote: »

I'd love to see your reference for that 85% "fact" - can't find anything remotely like it on the web.

Think it is around 70%, quite high internationally.

aDeener

Dionysus wrote: »

Just came across a BBC article, accompanied by two videos, which examines why Finland has the most successful education system in the world today.

The Finnish system would easily be classed as "alternative" or "radical" by Irish standards: no school uniforms; students on first name terms with teachers (the gaelscoileanna being the Irish exception in this regard); very few hours spent in school; students start school at 7 years of age; all teachers must do a 300 credit teacher training degree, which includes a masters and takes about five years; there is no distinction between primary and secondary schools; no streaming/students of all abilities are kept in the same classroom; fundamental belief that no child can be left behind; and, the bit I am most amazed by, an extra teacher in each class going around helping the weaker students (i.e. they put the financial resources behind their "no child left behind" philosophy. It's not just a nice-sounding ideal in a Department of Education speech).

The emphasis in the Finnish system is on languages, maths and science subjects and large Finnish companies such as Nokia play an active role in supporting this emphasis. Finland has a population of 5.3 million people so in size it's not a million kilometres away from our own.

Here's the BBC article:

Why do Finland's schools get the best results?


And more on Finland's education system:

Education in Finland

Education key to economic survival

Finland and Ireland, no. 1 and no 15 respectively in the OECD rankings in 2007

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Would you pay more taxes for Ireland to have an education system of the same standard as Finland's? Would you support a school culture which has the informal and relaxed culture which marks Finland's school system? What would you see as a negative consequence if our education system moved in this direction? In what other ways do you think our system could become better?

No but it is about a million people

CrazyRabbit

Of the Finns I work with, I consider most of them to be very well educated & with excellent self discipline. Whatever they are doing, it works.

aDeener

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Someone who knows what they're teaching as opposed to someone who played full forward for Kerry in an all-Ireland.

absolutely agreed kieran donaghy isnt a teacher and thus should never be let try and teach in a school :pac: although you are probably trying to imply paul galvin here. are you saying he is not adequately qualified?

E.T.

Don't want to state the obvious (but it seems I have to...) - there's a hell of a difference between 70% and 85%. I know it's nitpicking but I'm so sick of people posting made-up facts and figures about teachers/education. Going by what people post on the web I take home €50,000 a year, have 2 holiday houses and am out the door at 3 o' clock every day without ever taking home work!

K-9

E.T. wrote: »

Don't want to state the obvious (but it seems I have to...) - there's a hell of a difference between 70% and 85%. I know it's nitpicking but I'm so sick of people posting made-up facts and figures about teachers/education. Going by what people post on the web I take home €50,000 a year, have 2 holiday houses and am out the door at 3 o' clock every day without ever taking home work!

True. This was debated on the politics board before and the figures were provided.

70% doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing either, We employ thousands of classroom assistants now, from a very low base. One area in education that has improved.

Problem is, they'll probably be the first to go. No strong Union to represent them which is a shame. Kids with autism etc. that will suffer because, well, there isn't votes in it.

E.T.

K-9 wrote: »

Problem is, they'll probably be the first to go. No strong Union to represent them which is a shame. Kids with autism etc. that will suffer because, well, there isn't votes in it.

Union has nothing to do with SNAs being let go - what's happening at the moment is the SENO (co-ordinator who goes around to schools assessing SNA situation) are putting 2 or 3 kids, who previously had an SNA each, under the care of 1 SNA, it's absolutely crazy. And it lets the government say that children aren't losing out on SNAs because technically they still have access to one (which is great when you've 2 kids with toiletting needs in one room and they share the SNA with a kid in another room).

K-9

E.T. wrote: »

Union has nothing to do with SNAs being let go - what's happening at the moment is the SENO (co-ordinator who goes around to schools assessing SNA situation) are putting 2 or 3 kids, who previously had an SNA each, under the care of 1 SNA, it's absolutely crazy. And it lets the government say that children aren't losing out on SNAs because technically they still have access to one (which is great when you've 2 kids with toiletting needs in one room and they share the SNA with a kid in another room).

I'm aware of that, doesn't contradict my point.

I suppose rejecting the pay deal will suddenly improve this situation?

If Unions accepted the pay deal and made SNA'S a condition of acceptance, I'd have sympathy.

The pay deal has everything to do with SNA's. It is pure logic.

plein de force

it sounds great
and if that's the way it's run it would make me more likely to want to become a teacher as it's something i toy with from time to time

Le King

Well we can only dream

jimmycrackcorm

Here's the Finland difference:

In Finland, prices are just 2% below Irish prices, but an Irish teacher enjoys a wage that is 54% higher than a Finnish counterpart.

So we could employ twice as many teachers if we paid our lot half as much.

maninasia

And the same could be said about hospital consultants, doctors pay etc. It's a valid argument and common sense, cut the pay and hire more workers so more attention can be given to people's needs. It is by far the most logical thing to do instead of saying you could squeeze 3% more productivity out of some expert but maintain his high wages...
Greed is holding back provision of first-rate services, it's a factor no doubt.

But you still need to check the quality of all workers.

owenc

aDeener wrote: »

No but it is about a million people

That isn't very big at all most cities have a larger population than one million...

4zn76tysfajdxp

The one Finnish person I know is very smart, certainly very well-learned. But I was never one for books and such and there has to be stupid people in Finland so maybe she's just exceptional.

What was I saying again? Oh yeah, Finnish education system. Top notch, as far as I can see.