Finland's education system: something for Ireland to aspire to?

Fuhrer

mariaalice wrote: »

Teachers in Finland are extremely well paid and well qualified...this being Ireland you'd only get people wanting the finish system but moaning like mad at having to pay the teachers when we got it

I dont know what Ireland youve know but the opposite is true.


Teachers would want the extra money but would threaten to work to rule if education standards were expected to increase

Fuhrer

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Of the Finns I work with, I consider most of them to be very well educated & with excellent self discipline. Whatever they are doing, it works.

I love this argument.

"The Foreigners who got hired in my country based on their qualifications seem very well educated! Their system must work!"

Hagar

We can't even teach the kids Irish, it's going to be murder teaching them Finnish.

pickarooney

Can we have the results without the mass shootings or is it a package deal?

Helmet

To be fair I teach in an Educate Together where there's no uniform, kids call teachers by their first names, there's a multi-cultural inclusive ethos which 'leaves no child behind', every class has an additional support teacher and we encourage team-teaching. Unfortunately we have no control over the starting age or differentiation between primary or secondary school but I do believe that the kids in our school are getting a first class education based on the Irish Curriculum, which is a very laudable curriculum but needs to be delivered properly. Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pickarooney wrote: »

Can we have the results without the mass shootings or is it a package deal?

Doubt it. Unless the teach gun control and shooting in the classroom...

Sykk

Dionysus wrote: »

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Would you pay more taxes for Ireland to have an education system of the same standard as Finland's? Would you support a school culture which has the informal and relaxed culture which marks Finland's school system? What would you see as a negative consequence if our education system moved in this direction? In what other ways do you think our system could become better?

I can't immagine it costing more the way they do it.

There's no uniforms and less school, how does that = more tax?

Fuhrer

Sykk wrote: »

I can't immagine it costing more the way they do it.

There's no uniforms and less school, how does that = more tax?

The Teachers also have more College/University Education which does = more tax

Amhran Nua

Helmet wrote: »

Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

Bingo, nail on the head, and /thread. That's what we're aiming for in AN as well.

The_Minister

Helmet wrote: »

Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

We badly need a 'sceptical' smiley.

Hagar

Helmet wrote: »

'leaves no child behind'

Basically everyone learns at the rate of slowest child.
A bit of natural selection is a good thing, educate the cleverest at a pace they can handle and let the bewildered do their best as they will have to in later life. Unless you plan giving them a support teacher for ever.

Fuhrer

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Bingo, nail on the head, and /thread. That's what we're aiming for in AN as well.

How does that work?

Doesnt the presence of students of lesser ability massively degrade the learning process?

Essentially while dragging up the worst students it also pulls down the best.

Helmet

1st wrote: »

Basically everyone learns at the rate of slowest child.
A bit of natural selection is a good thing, educate the cleverest at a pace they can handle and let the bewildered do their best as they will have to in later life. Unless you plan giving them a support teacher for ever.

As I already stated, each class in our school has a fully qualified teacher to provide any additional scaffolding a child may need to keep up the pace, generally these children achieve with the additional support but naturally outgrow it and develop on their own.

I've had kids who've come into my class without a word of English and within 3-4 months been speaking and writing fluently.
I've also had kids who were written off as "learning disability" cases when it came to maths in other schools who've benefited from the extra support and gone on to excel.

"everyone learns at the rate of slowest child" is a ridiculous statement. You as a teacher are responsible for the proper planning and provision of appropriate support which will lead to an inclusive and encouraging learning environment.

Skeptical smilies or not, I've seen this in practice!

Noreen1

DublinWriter wrote: »

If you really want to improve the Irish educational system, then ban 'Peig' tomorrow and then all the kids will be into it.

Honestly, Peig Sawers did more to destroy the Irish language in thirty years than the British ever managed with three-hundred years of penal laws.

Does any school actually still use "Peig"?

None of my children actually used it, and I currently have two at second level, and one at Uni.

AFAIK, "Peig" hasn't been used in the Irish curriculum for years. Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'm genuinley curious!

Noreen

Fuhrer

Helmet wrote: »

As I already stated, each class in our school has a fully qualified teacher to provide any additional scaffolding a child may need to keep up the pace, generally these children achieve with the additional support but naturally outgrow it and develop on their own.

I've had kids who've come into my class without a word of English and within 3-4 months been speaking and writing fluently.
I've also had kids who were written off as "learning disability" cases when it came to maths in other schools who've benefited from the extra support and gone on to excel.

"everyone learns at the rate of slowest child" is a ridiculous statement. You as a teacher are responsible for the proper planning and provision of appropriate support which will lead to an inclusive and encouraging learning environment.

Skeptical smilies or not, I've seen this in practice!

I think his point is that when the teacher was giving the additional support to the slower kid, the brightest ones were missing out.

Amhran Nua

Fuhrer wrote: »

Essentially while dragging up the worst students it also pulls down the best.

You are correct, in the traditional one teacher per class model thats exactly what it does. When you have a supplementary or secondary teacher though, that changes the landscape considerably.

As per the proposal here, its quite doable to use technology to recreate the same conditions without neccessarily having the second teacher present. Teach to the minimum but encourage the maximum in a competitive environment, the opposite of the flawed implementation that has been used in for example the US.

Lots of other countries and institutions are making lumbering steps in the same direction as we speak - Australia, Princeton U, California, all moving towards this. If we do it first and do it right however, we can sell it on to other countries and use it to supplement our own education system.

Noreen1

I'm amazed that no-one has yet mentioned the fact that all Finnish teachers regularly go on courses to "Update" their teaching methods. Maybe that's the key?

Whatever the reason, their system works.....

Not that it has a snowballs chance in h*ll of ever being implemented here, our current Government seems to be hell-bent on destroying our Education system.

Only in Ireland is the "Reform" of an Education system interpreted as
"Reduce spending, and to h*ll with the consequences". :mad::mad::mad:

Noreen

Fuhrer

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You are correct, in the traditional one teacher per class model thats exactly what it does. When you have a supplementary or secondary teacher though, that changes the landscape considerably.

But doesnt this just mean that worse students get more?

Cant it be argued that its better to take that additonal support teacher and use them to teach the best of the class to an even higher standard.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fuhrer wrote: »

How does that work?

Doesnt the presence of students of lesser ability massively degrade the learning process?

Essentially while dragging up the worst students it also pulls down the best.

Interesting username. Cue Godwin's law.

The_Minister wrote: »

We badly need a 'sceptical' smiley.

And therein lies the probelm: it works somewhere else, it should work here and yet we remain skeptical. It's fear of change and something that might actually work better that really cripples Ireland.

Amhran Nua

Fuhrer wrote: »

Cant it be argued that its better to take that additonal support teacher and use them to teach the best of the class to an even higher standard.

No reason why that can't be done as well with the proposed system. Maximising potential I think its called.

Fuhrer

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No reason why that can't be done as well with the proposed system. Maximising potential I think its called.

Christ



In that case, why not just give every student 10 teachers?

ScumLord

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm amazed that no-one has yet mentioned the fact that all Finnish teachers regularly go on courses to "Update" their teaching methods. Maybe that's the key?

In this day and age it is, the children of today have been born into a digital world that their teachers probably don't fully understand. The kids are being held back thought information that's out of date and at a rate thats to slow for them to have any interest in it.

Amhran Nua

Fuhrer wrote: »

In that case, why not just give every student 10 teachers?

Read the post that was linked to.

aDeener

Helmet wrote: »

To be fair I teach in an Educate Together where there's no uniform, kids call teachers by their first names, there's a multi-cultural inclusive ethos which 'leaves no child behind', every class has an additional support teacher and we encourage team-teaching. Unfortunately we have no control over the starting age or differentiation between primary or secondary school but I do believe that the kids in our school are getting a first class education based on the Irish Curriculum, which is a very laudable curriculum but needs to be delivered properly. Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

whats wrong with a uniform?

Helmet

Fuhrer wrote: »

I think his point is that when the teacher was giving the additional support to the slower kid, the brightest ones were missing out.

That's not my point at all......the support teacher scaffolds the mainstream teacher's lesson and allows the target child/children to participate in the mainstream lesson, clarifying their own concepts and learning objectives, while the mainstream teacher provides additional extension materials for any of the more able children.

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm amazed that no-one has yet mentioned the fact that all Finnish teachers regularly go on courses to "Update" their teaching methods. Maybe that's the key?

There are plenty of professional development courses available through the INTO and several colleges. In my 3 years as a teacher I've completed 3 development courses along with aseveral Educate Together in-house training programmes.

ScumLord wrote: »

In this day and age it is, the children of today have been born into a digital world that their teachers probably don't fully understand. The kids are being held back thought information that's out of date and at a rate thats to slow for them to have any interest in it.

There's a growing trend towards younger teachers in schools which is helping as far as ICT is concerned. Definitely there are techno-phobes in schools and they should take advantage of the above professional development courses on offer. Also, it would be nice if the department could supply all schools with the necessary UP-TO-DATE technology required to teach in a modern world. I'm lucky in that I have a bank of 9 computers all connected to broadband in my class along with an interactive whiteboard, but this is a major exception!

aDeener wrote: »

whats wrong with a uniform?

Personally I think the lack of a uniform is a positive. School is meant to be an extension of the child's life, not a separate entity. Therefore dressing as they do at home gives them a more secure sense of belonging in school, it expresses individuality and personality. This goes hand in hand with the notion of the kids calling their teachers by their first name, it allows them to function on an equal footing as the teachers. Teachers are facilitators, not authoritarians.

Rant done!

ScumLord

Helmet wrote: »

There's a growing trend towards younger teachers in schools which is helping as far as ICT is concerned. Definitely there are techno-phobes in schools and they should take advantage of the above professional development courses on offer. Also, it would be nice if the department could supply all schools with the necessary UP-TO-DATE technology required to teach in a modern world. I'm lucky in that I have a bank of 9 computers all connected to broadband in my class along with an interactive whiteboard, but this is a major exception!

It is an exception and it seems almost pointless teaching children without them, by the time they leave school the pen and paper could be completely redundant altogether. Although like I said children know more about tech as it is, they grew up with it. But schools can't hope to keep the kids focus when they're teaching an outdated way of life.

Hagar

Helmet wrote: »

That's not my point at all......the support teacher scaffolds the mainstream teacher's lesson and allows the target child/children to participate in the mainstream lesson, clarifying their own concepts and learning objectives, while the mainstream teacher provides additional extension materials for any of the more able children.

God be with the days when we had three classes for each year, A, B and C.

A were the top achievers, B were a bit dimmer but salvageable and C were there to keep parents on the right side of truancy laws.

Has the world changed that much that we need A,B and C in the same classroom with C holding up A and leading B into trouble? Madness.

Helmet

1st wrote: »

God be with the days when we had three classes for each year, A, B and C.

A were the top achievers, B were a bit dimmer but salvageable and C were there to keep parents on the right side of truancy laws.

Has the world changed that much that we need A,B and C in the same classroom with C holding up A and leading B into trouble? Madness.

"Streaming" is what you're talking about. It has led to serious social issues in the states and the UK.
Streaming reinforces the idea that you are predestined to a particular position in society and will never achieve above your station. As a democratic, modern republic we'd be very ill-informed to follow this archaic programme.
It follows along the same lines as "The rich get richer, the poor get poorer".
Times have changed, for the better.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Helmet

Iolar wrote: »

Helmet dont bring your wacky European liberlism in here mmmkay ?:pac:

It's liberalism tut, tut, tut!

Isn't that what the whole thread's about......those wacky Finns?