Finland's education system: something for Ireland to aspire to?

Noreen1

Helmet wrote: »

Times have changed, for the better.

Have they? I don't think they have, in mainstream education, at any rate!

Helmet

Noreen1 wrote: »

Have they? I don't think they have, in mainstream education, at any rate!

To be honest, I'm not sure about second level, they were still streaming when I was in the CBS but at primary level there's a definite drive towards inclusion.

E.T.

It's not the "pay deal" that's being argued about by teachers - it's the vague paragraphs about changing our contracts and working conditions eg

"A comprehensive review and revision of the teaching contract to identify and remove any impediments to the provision of efficient and effective teaching to students in all sectors. This review and revision to be completed in advance of the start of the 2010/11 school year."

This doesn't state anything factual -why sign a contract that leaves your job description completely open to change? There's no mention of pay rises (I'm not looking for one I know the money's not there!!) so people can drop that argument!

E.T.

K-9 wrote: »

I'm aware of that, doesn't contradict my point.

I suppose rejecting the pay deal will suddenly improve this situation?

If Unions accepted the pay deal and made SNA'S a condition of acceptance, I'd have sympathy.

The pay deal has everything to do with SNA's. It is pure logic.

It's not the "pay deal" that's being argued about by teachers - it's the vague paragraphs about changing our contracts and working conditions eg

"A comprehensive review and revision of the teaching contract to identify and remove any impediments to the provision of efficient and effective teaching to students in all sectors. This review and revision to be completed in advance of the start of the 2010/11 school year."

This doesn't state anything factual -why sign a contract that leaves your job description completely open to change? There's no mention of pay rises (I'm not looking for one I know the money's not there!!) so people can drop that argument!

I'd actually be willing to take a (small) pay cut if it meant I'd get a classroom assistant (which is not an SNA) and the kids in my school who are entitled to an SNA would get a full time one each.

Fuhrer

E.T. wrote: »

I'd actually be willing to take a (small) pay cut if it meant I'd get a classroom assistant (which is not an SNA) and the kids in my school who are entitled to an SNA would get a full time one each.

Id bet many people would be willing to take a small pay cut if it meant someone else was hired to do a large part of their work.

E.T.

Fuhrer wrote: »

Id bet many people would be willing to take a small pay cut if it meant someone else was hired to do a large part of their work.

So while I'm in the toilet helping a child who needs to be catheretised/lifted out of a wheelchair/wiped/etc who's going to mind my 30 other 4 year olds? SNAs don't do teaching work.

Hagar

Helmet wrote: »

"Streaming" is what you're talking about. It has led to serious social issues in the states and the UK.
Streaming reinforces the idea that you are predestined to a particular position in society and will never achieve above your station. As a democratic, modern republic we'd be very ill-informed to follow this archaic programme.
It follows along the same lines as "The rich get richer, the poor get poorer".
Times have changed, for the better.

Doesn't the whole points system do that nicely?
Get the points, become a doctor, fall a few points shy become an "insert other career here".

Fuhrer

E.T. wrote: »

So while I'm in the toilet helping a child who needs to be catheretised/lifted out of a wheelchair/wiped/etc who's going to mind my 30 other 4 year olds? SNAs don't do teaching work.

While im talking to client whos going to answer my phone and respond to emails?

E.T.

Fuhrer wrote: »

While im talking to client whos going to answer my phone and respond to emails?

That's the best comparison you can come up with?!! Unless your client is a room full of four year olds that's an epic fail:)

bleg

Helmet wrote: »

To be fair I teach in an Educate Together where there's no uniform, kids call teachers by their first names, there's a multi-cultural inclusive ethos which 'leaves no child behind', every class has an additional support teacher and we encourage team-teaching. Unfortunately we have no control over the starting age or differentiation between primary or secondary school but I do believe that the kids in our school are getting a first class education based on the Irish Curriculum, which is a very laudable curriculum but needs to be delivered properly. Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

that's dangerous thinking.

Fuhrer

E.T. wrote: »

That's the best comparison you can come up with?!! Unless your client is a room full of four year olds that's an epic fail:)

I hate to think that someone who says epic fail is involved in education in anyway.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fuhrer wrote: »

While im talking to client whos going to answer my phone and respond to emails?

You're going from bad to worse. When you have 30-odd emails that will run amok, cause trouble and disappear if not attended to within ten seconds, then you can make the comparison.

E.T.

Fuhrer wrote: »

I hate to think that someone who says epic fail is involved in education in anyway.

I do apologise if I've lowered your view of the teaching profession in any way. I'll rephrase my comment. Unless your client is a classroom full of four year olds then yours is a completely fallacious argument.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bleg wrote: »

that's dangerous thinking.

Fuhrer wrote: »

I hate to think that someone who says epic fail is involved in education in anyway.

Ah, you know the right wingers are in when an blanket comment without any elaboration or a pathetic insult takes the place of a coherent argument

Fuhrer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Ah, you know the right wingers are in when an blanket comment without any elaboration or a pathetic insult takes the place of a coherent argument

Try reading my posts above you annoying troll.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fuhrer wrote: »

Try reading my posts above you annoying troll.

Oh, I have been reading them, I replied to one, Mein Fuehrer. I say that because the only idea you've come up with is to pump all the resources into the brightest kids, and **** the rest of them into the smallest most convenient place possible. Hitler had the same idea (Godwin's Law cited for the second time) You seem to be completely ignorant to the crime wave that will follow when these ignored kids hit adulthood.

Your last three posts have been pathetic insults, nothing more.

eth0_

Also, Finnish university students are paid a stipend by the government (I think it's 400 euro a month) to cover rent and food. So EVERYONE can afford to go to university.

They are a rather dry and reserved people, though.

Fuhrer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oh, I have been reading them, I replied to one, Mein Fuehrer. I say that because the only idea you've come up with is to pump all the resources into the brightest kids, and **** the rest of them into the smallest most convenient place possible. Hitler had the same idea (Godwin's Law cited for the second time) You seem to be completely ignorant to the crime wave that will follow when these ignored kids hit adulthood.

Your last three posts have been pathetic insults, nothing more.

No, again you seem utterly ignorant of any of the facts.


Helmet was saying that money should be pumped into the lesser students education. I simply stated that this was unfair and by his same reasoning the best should get extra attention.

Seems obvious now why you are so offended by my idea, you were one of the slow ones, werent you?

Hrududu

To be honest I don't see anything wrong with streaming. Everyone is taught to the level of their ability. When I was in school people did move up or down depending on how they progressed so it wasn't like they were stuck in one track regardless. It would be nice to think that all people are capable of the same things, but they're not.

The person streamed into 'C' will not get the same LC results as the person streamed into 'A' regardless of whether they are in the same classroom or not.

Will it end up that Jimmy narrowly misses his points to do medicine because everyone wants Johnny not to feel stupid?

Fuhrer

Hrududu wrote: »

Will it end up that Jimmy narrowly misses his points to do medicine because everyone wants Johnny not to feel stupid?

No, you see thats right wing and what Hitler would have wanted.


If Johnny spends all his time after school causing trouble and not studying then it is on the teacher to make sure no one moves on because she has to explain everything to Johnny again.

Noreen1

E.T. wrote: »

It's not the "pay deal" that's being argued about by teachers - it's the vague paragraphs about changing our contracts and working conditions eg

"A comprehensive review and revision of the teaching contract to identify and remove any impediments to the provision of efficient and effective teaching to students in all sectors. This review and revision to be completed in advance of the start of the 2010/11 school year."

Basic translation = "Carte Blanche" to alter a previously agreed "Contract of Employment" (one which is legally binding on both parties, I might add!), - and make whatever "financial adjustments" current fiscal policy requires - without ever stating in advance what these adjustments might be.........

I wouldn't agree to it, either!:eek:

Anyone ever hear the old saying about a pig in a poke?:D
It just proves that the teachers are more intelligent than the Government:D:D

Noreen

K-9

Fuhrer wrote: »

I hate to think that someone who says epic fail is involved in education in anyway.

I wish corporal punishment was back. 10 lashes of the cane for Fuhrer.

Miss Lockhart

1st wrote: »

Doesn't the whole points system do that nicely?
Get the points, become a doctor, fall a few points shy become an "insert other career here".

Lol!

Of course everyone who gets the points wants to be a doctor - right?!

Dionysus

1st wrote: »

Basically everyone learns at the rate of slowest child.
A bit of natural selection is a good thing, educate the cleverest at a pace they can handle and let the bewildered do their best as they will have to in later life. Unless you plan giving them a support teacher for ever.

In the OP the second video is an interview with the Finnish Minister for Education and the BBC guy asks her basically your question: does this system not keep the brighter kids back?

Her answer was really thoughtful. She acknowledged that this could be a problem and undoubtedly was a problem in some sections of the education system. However, she made what in my view was a very solid counter to that argument. She pointed out that in the non-streaming mixed-ability classes which mark the Finnish system the brighter kids learn a wide array of skills that reinforce their leadership roles. They learn to develop skills at teamwork, encouragement, motivation and organisation. They develop interpersonal skills in a way which streaming would not - for instance, as they are working with a broad range of skills, talents and intelligence levels they develop an appreciation of people's strong points and how to use them to maximise the class or team success. In a streamed school system the brighter kids would not have had the same need to develop these vital life and career skills.


I think she made a lot of sense.

E.T.

That does make a lot of sense. The fact that there's a second teacher in the classroom for those who are struggling is great. The whole system sounds very good, I'd love to be able to see it in action.

Dionysus

Helmet wrote: »

To be fair I teach in an Educate Together where there's no uniform, kids call teachers by their first names, there's a multi-cultural inclusive ethos which 'leaves no child behind', every class has an additional support teacher and we encourage team-teaching. Unfortunately we have no control over the starting age or differentiation between primary or secondary school but I do believe that the kids in our school are getting a first class education based on the Irish Curriculum, which is a very laudable curriculum but needs to be delivered properly. Basically give kids a structured environment and provide then with the opportunity to learn for themselves and they will all, regardless of background or ability, thrive!

Very good post. The 'structured environment' point is excellent as many parents think that if there's no school uniform and the student-teacher relationship is based on first name terms that the school is not serious. Given this perception, that was a good emphasis. I know little about the Educate Together schools so it's good that somebody is around to let us know what goes on there. Are Educate Together schools multidenominational? (somebody on the Teaching forum was saying a while back that no Irish school can be non-denominational.)

coffee_cake

Dionysus wrote: »

no streaming/students of all abilities are kept in the same classroom; fundamental belief that no child can be left behind; and, the bit I am most amazed by, an extra teacher in each class going around helping the weaker students

So where's the support and extra teacher for the quicker students? Are they supposed to just sit there rotting their brains and disrupting from boredom? Teach themselves maybe?

"no child left behind but none of them are allowed ahead either"?

. She pointed out that in the non-streaming mixed-ability classes which mark the Finnish system the brighter kids learn a wide array of skills that reinforce their leadership roles. They learn to develop skills at teamwork, encouragement, motivation and organisation.

translation: "they don't have anything to do so they uh, socialise"
WHAT encouragement? WHAT motivation? Motivation for what, being stuck in the same average class and never allowed out? That's way #1 to kill off any motivation in any bright child
Honestly, what a load of rubbish.

Dionysus

DublinWriter wrote: »

If you really want to improve the Irish educational system, then ban 'Peig' tomorrow and then all the kids will be into it.

Honestly, Peig Sawers did more to destroy the Irish language in thirty years than the British ever managed with three-hundred years of penal laws.

You're at least ten years behind the times with this one, DublinWriter. Indeed Peig was taken off the Irish syllabus back in the twentieth century:

Peig removed from syllabus (5 November 1999)

E.T.

There's an extra teacher in each classroom to help any students who are struggling, so I assume the class teacher can give extra work to the children who are ahead.

Dionysus

bluewolf wrote: »

So where's the support and extra teacher for the quicker students? Are they supposed to just sit there rotting their brains and disrupting from boredom? Teach themselves maybe?

"no child left behind but none of them are allowed ahead either"?


translation: "they don't have anything to do so they uh, socialise"
WHAT encouragement? WHAT motivation? Motivation for what, being stuck in the same average class and never allowed out? That's way #1 to kill off any motivation in any bright child
Honestly, what a load of rubbish.

See post #117, Bluewolf. Or watch the second video in the OP for the Finnish Minister for Education addressing your question directly.