'this is Greece, not Ireland, we'll fight back'

I don't really see why Irish people should 'take to the streets' to be honest.

Not unless things get significantly worse for us rapidly. I know we're in the toilet, but we're not all out on the streets, poor or homeless.

Mortgage payments should be altered though. Either by an extension being added on for those who need it or something like that to take the pressure off some of the population. That'll calm a lot of people who are really over their heads (though if they ever were to introduce such changes it should only apply to people with one house/property).


Running around, tearing the place apart doesn't help at all. It's idiotic, at best.

Nasty_Girl

Deleted User wrote: »

Running around, tearing the place apart doesn't help at all. It's idiotic, at best.

I agree, it's disgraceful behaviour.
It doesn't solve anything.

Seloth

Greeks are pissed off as there country is gone o ****e again((Being a hugly corrupt government)).

But they target ireland becuase we have taken cut backs which are actually working.

If anyof you read the paper many greeks were retiring at 50!

Einhard

snow ghost wrote: »

You're jumping to some wild assumptions there... that's not what the poster said nor implied.

And why shouldn't someone go abroad on a break? It's cheaper than staying here.

Yeah, I've been told I do a fine line in hyperbole!:D

Nobody's claiming that people shouldn't be able to go on a holiday if they wish. But I think a lot of people on these boards bemoaning the apathy (as they see it) of the Irish people, are not half as badly off as they like to claim/think. Even in this recession, most Irish people are far better off than any previous generation, and the same goes for the Greeks too. I think a bit of perspective is needed, and that's the point I was trying to make.

Einhard

Overheal wrote: »

ITs because of those freak accidents though that you guys seem so terrified to speak out against your government "Oh... mosh pit! I dont wanna get hurt outside. Its too wet" bla bla bla

I don't think there was anything "accidental" about flinging a petrol bomb into a crowded building. Whoever was behind it knew exactly what they were doing.

snow ghost

Peaceful protest is a legitimate democratic right and a way of expressing disdain with corrupt or inept politicians.

The majority of Greeks who were protesting weren't responsible for the violence - there appeared to have been a violent minoirty intent on causing trouble.

It seems the masses here are intent on taking what our government and their golden circle cronies have put on us lying down, the present government are culpable for what has happened in Ireland and I think Irish people should protest peacefully to put pressure on them to go, if that is what most people want.

KevinVonSpiel

Seloth wrote: »

If anyof you read the paper many greeks were retiring at 50!

Their work productivity was never that high anyway... so retiring doesn't make that much of a difference.

Einhard

snow ghost wrote: »

Seems like Ireland sold it's soul to the devil and has lost all will to justifiably rebel against subjugation.

Seems hyperbole is contagious! We live in a democracy. There's no need to rebel when you have a direct say in who runs the country. We'd be a lot better off if we took a bit of personal responsibility, and actually thought more seriously when we were casting our ballots. The problem is, we connived in what FF was doing for years, and now many people would rather just ignore that fact.

snow ghost

Einhard wrote: »

Nobody's claiming that people shouldn't be able to go on a holiday if they wish. But I think a lot of people on these boards bemoaning the apathy (as they see it) of the Irish people, are not half as badly off as they like to claim/think. Even in this recession, most Irish people are far better off than any previous generation, and the same goes for the Greeks too. I think a bit of perspective is needed, and that's the point I was trying to make.

Point taken, although I'd argue that people are now more in debt than any previous generation... the relative wealth is a bit of a facade. Moreover, our country's finances are in intensive care due to the negligence of a corrupt political and financial establishment here.

KevinVonSpiel

snow ghost wrote: »

Seems like Ireland sold it's soul to the devil and has lost all will to justifiably rebel against subjugation.

I thought that the devil was all about rebellion, non serviam & all that...

snow ghost

Einhard wrote: »

Seems hyperbole is contagious! We live in a democracy. There's no need to rebel when you have a direct say in who runs the country. We'd be a lot better off if we took a bit of personal responsibility, and actually thought more seriously when we were casting our ballots. The problem is, we connived in what FF was doing for years, and now many people would rather just ignore that fact.

I never voted for the bankers and golden circles, but I agree with what you say about conniving.

Overheal

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think there was anything "accidental" about flinging a petrol bomb into a crowded building. Whoever was behind it knew exactly what they were doing.

You're hypothesizing, and deflecting the point; which is that the Irish state as a whole and culture seems to be afraid of Protest Did the English beat this into your senses when they occupied you? Are you afraid that if the UK smells weakness and sees you protesting they'll see it as an opening to come back? I don't mean that as a dig, but as a serious question. Because there are so very few reasons to be so vehemently against public and political demonstrations.

Its not an attitude seen in many other places. Can you name a country where they have the same attitude to protests? The only ones I can think of are China, and Korea. And Tibet..

Einhard

Moreover, our country's finances are in intensive care due to the negligence of a corrupt political and financial establishment here.

Couldn't agree more on this point. But it has to be acknowledged that we enabled, nay encouraged, the cynicism, gombeenism, and incompetence that brought us to this sorry point. If we don't recognise that, and keep on voting for short term personal gain instead of long term good governance, we'll never escape the boom/bust cycle.

snow ghost

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

I thought that the devil was all about rebellion, non serviam & all that...

Think 'Thieves in the Temple'.

In 1918 Irish people had a democratic vote yet had to resort to rebellion against the then British government to express their democratic mandate.

snow ghost

Einhard wrote: »

Couldn't agree more on this point. But it has to be acknowledged that we enabled, nay encouraged, the cynicism, gombeenism, and incompetence that brought us to this sorry point. If we don't recognise that, and keep on voting for short term personal gain instead of long term good governance, we'll never escape the boom/bust cycle.

I agree.

Einhard

You're hypothesizing, and deflecting the point;

I was addressing the point directly; that the fire bombing was accidental, It's plain that it wasn't.

which is that the Irish state as a whole and culture seems to be afraid of Protest Did the English beat this into your senses when they occupied you? Are you afraid that if the UK smells weakness and sees you protesting they'll see it as an opening to come back?I don't mean that as a dig, but as a serious question. Because there are so very few reasons to be so vehemently against public and political demonstrations.

I'll make my protest at the ballot box. I can understand the need to vent some frustration, maybe overturn a few cars etc, but I don't see what it'll achieve. And even if it does bring about a change in government, the new administration will pursue the same fiscal policies in the short term at least. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if FG and Labour were privately horrified at the thought of governing now, considering it's they who would have to implement cutbacks, and bear the brunt of public anger.

Its not an attitude seen in many other places. Can you name a country where they have the same attitude to protests? The only ones I can think of are China, and Korea. And Tibet..

There's absolutely no comparison. We have a choice in our leaders. The problem is we misused that right over the past few years. And now we seek to absolve ourselves of all respnsibility for our choices.

Einhard

snow ghost wrote: »

I agree.

You do? But that's no fun!! :pac:

snow ghost

Einhard wrote: »

You do? But that's no fun!! :pac:

You're right... I retract my agreement, YOU'RE SOOOO WRONG! :pac:

Supercell

Greece is supposedly a democracy?
They voted in the gob****es in power just like we voted in Bertie and Charlie.
You get the government you deserve.
We got lucky by comparison to Greece.
Though you could argue we wouldn't have voted in as totally corrupt feckers as they obviously did, though we tried our best.
I'm running for Taoiseach, Vote Gobshiiitee_ie

Einhard

Supercell wrote: »

I'm running for Taoiseach, Vote Gobshiiitee_ie

I'll vote for you if you promise to lower my taxes...and improve the public services...and force the banks to lower the interest rate on my mortgage...and keep my local hospital open even though there's another a few miles up the road...and fix the footpath outside my house...and give me free water...and a pony...

up for anything

Nulty wrote: »

TBH the people I blame for this are the FF voters. I will live and die by the notion that re-electing an Irish government is suicide. They get stupider the longer they're in office. Protesting shows that we take notice and actually care. It puts the leaders under pressure. It's a hell of a lot better than turning the the person next to you and saying "This is awful ****, isn't it!"

You're absolutely right. What have the Irish done to this country except feck it up!

Overheal

Einhard wrote: »

There's absolutely no comparison. We have a choice in our leaders. The problem is we misused that right over the past few years. And now we seek to absolve ourselves of all respnsibility for our choices.

I don't use this expression often, but LOL.

It was the same story 2 years ago or so. And 'Ye voted them Right Back In. "We'll get them out! Goodbye Broken Government! Rabble Rabble"

It came and went. No such luck.

I'll make my protest at the ballot box. I can understand the need to vent some frustration, maybe overturn a few cars etc, but I don't see what it'll achieve. And even if it does bring about a change in government, the new administration will pursue the same fiscal policies in the short term at least. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if FG and Labour were privately horrified at the thought of governing now, considering it's they who would have to implement cutbacks, and bear the brunt of public anger.

You seem to overlook the fact that public demonstration attracts public attention. Aye, good Mr.Biggins has a website. Some of ye have a blog. You might even soapbox a little bit down at your local. But what all of that pales in comparison to being able to make frontline news when "Today 25,000 Irishmen demonstrated outside the Dail/Oreachtais (sp?)/etc. today to protest the delay of a General Election, etc." - you've got the eyes and ears of the Country. YES to General Election. etc.

That REACHES Ms. Busybody O'Shea. She doesn't read the blogs. Or the websites. She glazes over the Editorials. She might turn on Tubirdy (sp?) or the Rayjo [sic] and lap up the narrative she's being fed. And she's happy with that. But she hears about 25,000 people marching in protest outside of government offices? She pauses. Whats going on there? She looks into it.

Protest. Gets. Attention.

You might not understand the value of demonstration but the rest of the world sure as hell does.

Einhard

Overheal wrote: »

You seem to overlook the fact that public demonstration attracts public attention.

Protest. Gets. Attention.

You might not understand the value of demonstration but the rest of the world sure as hell does.

If I took a shit in the middle of O'Connell Street it would also get attention. Wouldn't achieve anything though.






Apart from some jail time perhaps!

Seloth

KevinVonSpiel wrote: »

Their work productivity was never that high anyway... so retiring doesn't make that much of a difference.

It still added costs to their country..was one of the main arguments a Greek person was making in the paper

tolosenc

Dear Greece,

There is a simple solution: Make a public statement saying that police/army/riot squads have been given live ammunition for all protests, and been told to fire at will.

Overheal

Einhard wrote: »

If I took a shit in the middle of O'Connell Street it would also get attention. Wouldn't achieve anything though.






Apart from some jail time perhaps!

Now are you just being obstinate because you can't refute the things that I say, or are you really not getting it?

Mezcita

Overheal wrote: »

I don't use this expression often, but LOL.

It was the same story 2 years ago or so. And 'Ye voted them Right Back In. "We'll get them out! Goodbye Broken Government! Rabble Rabble"

It came and went. No such luck.

You seem to overlook the fact that public demonstration attracts public attention. Aye, good Mr.Biggins has a website. Some of ye have a blog. You might even soapbox a little bit down at your local. But what all of that pales in comparison to being able to make frontline news when "Today 25,000 Irishmen demonstrated outside the Dail/Oreachtais (sp?)/etc. today to protest the delay of a General Election, etc." - you've got the eyes and ears of the Country. YES to General Election. etc.

That REACHES Ms. Busybody O'Shea. She doesn't read the blogs. Or the websites. She glazes over the Editorials. She might turn on Tubirdy (sp?) or the Rayjo [sic] and lap up the narrative she's being fed. And she's happy with that. But she hears about 25,000 people marching in protest outside of government offices? She pauses. Whats going on there? She looks into it.

Protest. Gets. Attention.

You might not understand the value of demonstration but the rest of the world sure as hell does.

Meh. I and mean that quite seriously. The general public voted on who they wanted to govern this country.

You could stick 25,000 outside the Dail tomorrow morning threatening to burn the place down. It wouldn't mean that you had the support of the country. But say 250,000 demonstrated. Dammit, let's just call it a milliion people and it led to the government stepping down. It wouldn't mean that that our situation would resolve itself overnight and that everything here would be fixed.

The people of Ireland had their chance to vote and they will get it again. Until then demonstrations like in Greece which lead to the death of innocent people as well showing the financial markets that the country should not be touched with twenty foot pole are pointless. They're fuc.ked and are doing themselves no favours internationally with these type of protests.

Countries need stability to get through economic crises. Right now we've got no choice but to stick it out.

Overheal

Mezcita wrote: »

Meh. I and mean that quite seriously. The general public voted on who they wanted to govern this country.

But how many actually involved themselves in the process.

You could stick 25,000 outside the Dail tomorrow morning threatening to burn the place down. It wouldn't mean that you had the support of the country. But say 250,000 demonstrated. Dammit, let's just call it a milliion people and it led to the government stepping down. It wouldn't mean that that our situation would resolve itself overnight and that everything here would be fixed.

Thats why its called public Demonstration. Not a Coup d'etait, Overthrow, or Revolution. We seem to be confusing the two ideas for the same thing.

But fair play to the tea party: they know what they want and theyll scream till theyre blue in the face to get it. just on a US side note.

The people of Irleand had their chance to vote and they will get it again. Until then demonstrations like in Greece which lead to the death of innocent people as well showing the financial markets that the country should not be touched with twenty foot pole are pointless. They're fuc.ked and are doing themselves no favours internationally with these type of protests.

Countries need stability to get through economic crises. Right now we've got no choice but to stick it out.

You had the power to vote for the last 10 years. Whats changed about the political climate exactly? Same corrupt fcuks pocketing your money and doing fcuk all with their Seats to boot.

Saying you can't do it right now is a copout. Pure and simple. Delaying. Procrastinating, until like Greece you plan to have the World bail you out because you as a people cannot competently elect competent people to function your society.

baaaa

Why do people champion the concept of Irish democracy so much?
The elections are usually won by people behind the scenes and PR agencies.It's a nice concept with nice connotations but the reality is very different.
Most won't admit it but they have really no clue who they voting for and are swayed by falsehoods.
Look at the past "leaders" our system of democracy has given us and you must admit that the system seems to err on totally screwing us.
Saying you'll have your say at the ballot box is meaningless,it will just be more of the same.

wingsof daun

We don't know how deep down in s$%t we are, we are splashing around in it instead if trying to pull ourselves out of it to the top! We are not recognizing it for what is actually is - sh%t! Are y'all going to go down without at least putting up a fight? THINK about it. This whole society was set up for to lead to our ultimate doom, I hope that doesn't scare you, it shouldn't, death is ultimate fate for everyone. If you are worth your salt you will no go quietly. They might be trying to destroy everything Irish, but if Irishness is in your blood, they cannot do anything about that!

snaps

Einhard wrote: »

You're sunning yourself on a foreign holiday and you have the nerve to moan about your plight?? What, you can only take 2 holidays this year instead of the usual 4? FFS, it's about time some people got real.

Im laying in a tent in Italy, my 1st holiday since 2005 and possibly my last holiday for some time and yes so far it is a lot cheaper than what i would be spending if i was at home. I have a very stressfull job (Chef) and the hotel industry has taken a hammering, even worse now the dollar compared to the euro means less Americans coming over here for holidays.

Eoin

goat2 wrote: »

if greece sees us in this way
well be shure that is how the rest of europe see us
were banjaxed

Who gives a shìt about what Greece thinks about? They're not in a position to make any judgements.

I'd be more concerned about how the likes of the major credit agencies see Ireland doing, and they seem to think that we're getting our house in order. Maybe the recently projected growth of our economy won't happen, but in the meantime we're in far better position than Greece is.

Overheal wrote:

Not to mention the stellar record of public protest, that I shouldn't need to elaborate on; but there's always been a lot of that "What's the point" attitude around these here boards.

There's a difference between thinking "what's the point?" and accepting that you have to take some pain to get through this.

bad2dabone

Most Irish people are very annoyed with the situation we find ourselves in. And at the factors, political and societal that have gotten us into the sh1t.

But most people also realize that rioting and burning people to death isn't really going to help anything at all.

I do believe that certain people here should be in jail over the **** they've put us into,
but its fair to say a lot of people bought into the falsehoods that our "economy" was built on and unfortunately we're taking a collective kick in the balls for that.

We'll get through it.

The Greek rioters are throwing a tantrum when they've no one to blame but themselves,
and that tantrum is only going to make things worse for them in the eyes of the world.

markfla

snaps wrote: »

even worse now the dollar compared to the euro means less Americans coming over here for holidays.

What do you mean? the dollar is strengthening against the Euro. It was over $1.50 to the euro at one stage and now $1.27 if anything it got a hell of a lot cheaper for Americans to come here. Consumables for American companies have gotten cheaper too over here.

markfla

bad2dabone wrote: »

Most Irish people are very annoyed with the situation we find ourselves in. And at the factors, political and societal that have gotten us into the sh1t.

But most people also realize that rioting and burning people to death isn't really going to help anything at all.

I do believe that certain people here should be in jail over the **** they've put us into,
but its fair to say a lot of people bought into the falsehoods that our "economy" was built on and unfortunately we're taking a collective kick in the balls for that.

We'll get through it.

The Greek rioters are throwing a tantrum when they've no one to blame but themselves,
and that tantrum is only going to make things worse for them in the eyes of the world.

I agree with ye, if you were a multinational firm, would ye bother yer bollix locate in Greece with the instability caused by the rioting. It's very tempting to go apeshít against the powers that be, but sends out the wrong signals to the rest of the world.

goat2

ejmaztec wrote: »

The sh1t was still going to fly, whether we voted yes to Lisbon or not, but I do agree with your last sentence.

we were already in a big hole, put there by our own, not the eu
that is the real reason they put up a second referendum

baaaa

eoin wrote: »

Maybe the recently projected growth of our economy won't happen, but in the meantime we're in far better position than Greece is.

Can someone look at this graph and explain how we are in a better position than greece.We aren't,we are screwed.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh-image/02marsh-image-custom1.jpg

K-9

baaaa wrote: »

Can someone look at this graph and explain how we are in a better position than greece.We aren't,we are screwed.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh-image/02marsh-image-custom1.jpg

There was a thread on this before. A large part of that debt is in the IFSC. One or two companies have gone bust their already and had no bearing on us. They aren't covered by the bank guarantee scheme.

hobochris

We should launch a counter slogan:

"This is Ireland not Greece, we'll try to fix our problems rather then wait for the EU & IMF to swoop in and then riot because we don't like the results of our lack of action."

or

"This is Ireland not Greece, We not perfect, but the EU predicts our economy to grow not Contract by 3% next year."

JohnMearsheimer

That graph only puts Greece's debt at about €185 billion. Isn't it more like €300 billion?

edellc

correct me if im wrong but since we had to declare the money the govt gave to anglo as a bad debt/loan we are in worse **** than greece
however rioting is not going to solve the problem and if anyone watched prime time last night it was clear that brian cowen still has his head in the clouds regarding our situation so be prepared for it to get a lot worse and encouraging ppl to buy houses so as to pump money into the banking system is just outrageous
i have never voted ff but do feel they should be left where they are to sort out the **** they put us in and as for brian cowen saying that the crash was not forseen what planet has he been living on for the last five years is it not obvious that this was going to happen when the banks could do what they wanted as well as property developers charging half a million for an apartment and he could see this happening he really should have gone to specksavers

reprazant

baaaa wrote: »

Can someone look at this graph and explain how we are in a better position than greece.We aren't,we are screwed.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh-image/02marsh-image-custom1.jpg

Is that what you are basing your ramblings on?

According to the Economist, we are no where near to Greece

http://media.economist.com/images/20100206/CBB843.gif

baaaa

reprazant wrote: »

Is that what you are basing your ramblings on?

According to the Economist, we are no where near to Greece

http://media.economist.com/images/20100206/CBB843.gif

Show me this graph again when it's correct(includes Nama).
Until then I'll ramble on thanks.

reprazant

baaaa wrote: »

Show me this graph again when it's correct(includes Nama).
Until then I'll ramble on thanks.

Super. By the way, since you seem to think that we are worse off than Greece due to your graph, could you explain where that leaves Italy?

Cheers.

JohnMearsheimer

baaaa wrote: »

Show me this graph again when it's correct(includes Nama).
Until then I'll ramble on thanks.

The graph you posted wasn't correct.

PostHack

hobochris wrote: »

We should launch a counter slogan:

"This is Ireland not Greece, we'll try to fix our problems rather then wait for the EU & IMF to swoop in and then riot because we don't like the results of our lack of action."

or

"This is Ireland not Greece, We not perfect, but the EU predicts our economy to grow not Contract by 3% next year."

I dunno... their one is more catchy.

baaaa

reprazant wrote: »

Super. By the way, since you seem to think that we are worse off than Greece due to your graph, could you explain where that leaves Italy?

Cheers.

Well,going by my graph Italy are pretty screwed also.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

"this is Ireland not Greece, please send us greek women."

reprazant

baaaa wrote: »

Well,going by my graph Italy are pretty screwed also.

By your incorrect graph, and your misreading of it, Italy should be the country in the most trouble of all the PIIGS countries.

Yet they are actually in the strongest position.

Strange that that could be the way seeing as your graph showed debt and did not show GDP, GNP, etc are any of the other factors that go towards factoring how well a country is doing.

Also, the UK may soon be added to that group of countries if their current situation does not improve soon.

consultech

hobochris wrote: »

We should launch a counter slogan:

"This is Ireland not Greece, we'll try to fix our problems rather then wait for the EU & IMF to swoop in and then riot because we don't like the results of our lack of action."

or

"This is Ireland not Greece, We not perfect, but the EU predicts our economy to grow not Contract by 3% next year."

You should write jingles...

'and do you think we actually did anything to achieve that growth (if it ever happens)? We sat back on our arses whinging to each other and taking no action whatsoever. ANy economic growth will be out of pure dumb luck. We'll probably even keep FF in at the next GE.