Red Macadam Cycle Paths - do they work??

kphelan

To all you experienced cyclists out there, we would love to hear your views on red macadam cycle paths as opposed to ordinary Tarmac -

Do they work?
Is the surface better/worse to cycle on?

Comments good or bad we'd love to hear them!

Yours
Smarter Travel Team
Dungarvan

abcdggs

My main experience of red tarmac cycle paths are those along the N11 where the coloured layer has broken up and this leaves a whole lot of gaps in red tarmac. as far as i'm concerned if this is the way you intend to use the red tarmac (ie leave it go to disrepair) then don't bother. Personally i'd prefer a smooth cycle path with a painted line outside between it and the car lane than what i've experienced on the N11

seamus

Forgetting the fact that cycle lanes in Ireland are generally poor, the only thing that red macadam lanes are good at is making themselves stand out.

- The quality of the macadam is usually worse than that of normal roads - it's rougher, basically. Roads are smoother

- The way it's laid down is usually appalling. Unlike roads which are laid and flattened so that each lane is fairly seamless, cycle lanes seem to be laid in 12-inch strips, leaving ridges all the way down the lane where the strips overlap. There often seems to have been little or no attempt to flatten the laid macadam.

- It's not laid like macadam should be. Most "red" cycle lanes are simply overlaid on concrete footpaths, using a cm (or less) of macadam. This very quickly deteriorates and breaks up, exposing the concrete beneath and making the lane bumpy and uneven.

So basically, I can't tell you if the red tarmac is any better than the black schtuff because it's used in an appallingly sloppy way

jaqian

seamus wrote: »

I can't tell you if the red tarmac is any better than the black schtuff because it's used in an appallingly sloppy way

+1

Grimpeur

Any cycle lane I’ve used (Dublin-based) has been either a very thin layer of red material which breaks up and lifts after time or, a red grit which is dumped with, I presume, the intention that, over time, bike wheels will flatten and integrate the material – much the same way that lazy county councils apply ‘loose chippings’ on rural roads.

Neither technique works as they will never even out a previously uneven surface.

The only thing I might say in their favour is that the red might be more of a deterrent to motorists who don’t recognize painted lines.

I’ve seen what look to me like proper Macadam lanes in the uk and they look far superior to my eye.

Lumen

@kphelan: FWIW, there are endless threads on this forum full of complaints about cycle lanes/paths/whatever.

The main issue is that there are two classes of reasonable cyclist:

1. The pedestrian on a bike, who sees the bicycle as a faster means of walking, and is happy/prefers to use segregated pedestrian infrastructure (off-road paths, ped crossings etc) away from motor vehicles.

2. The cycling road user, who wishes to be treated as as a first class road user, share the roads with the cars, and abide by the ROTR.

There are other classes of unreasonable cyclist, but best not get into that.

Children and inexperienced adult cyclists tend to be type 1. Experienced cyclists tend to be type 2.

If you're involved with infrastructure planning, please consider the needs of both groups.

victorcarrera

I think the red tarmac gives better traction in the wet either because it is usually newer than the existing road surface and seems to have a raised grain. Maybe the contrast in colour discourages other road users from using them compared to the ordinary tarmac.
It's all small beans really when you consider the lack of maintenance of all the cycle lanes . Glass/road chippings/ gravel/road debri/fallen leaves/branches of trees etc get blown onto the cycle lanes from the traffic on the road. However it seems that an annual run over them with a road sweeper is beyond us at the moment. Cyclists tend to avoid these lanes and use the road instead. Have a look at the cycle lane between lucan and tallaght as a good example of a neglected cycle lane.
My advice, save your money on the fashion statement and spend it on maintenance.
PS: Thanks for comming on here and asking though.
Are you connected with local authority?

Chips Lovell

Not a big fan of the red cycle paths. When they're freshly laid they tend to be covered in loose red grit, which isn't great from a grip perspective. Then they seem to wear out pretty quickly and whole patches disappear.

If there has to be a cycle lane, I prefer it to be marked out on the left hand side of the road itself.

victorcarrera

I think the red tarmac gives better traction in the wet either because it is usually newer than the existing road surface and seems to have a raised grain. Maybe the contrast in colour discourages other road users from using them compared to the ordinary tarmac.
It's all small beans really when you consider the lack of maintenance of all the cycle lanes . Glass/road chippings/ gravel/road debri/fallen leaves/branches of trees etc get blown onto the cycle lanes from the traffic on the road. However it seems that an annual run over them with a road sweeper is beyond us at the moment. Cyclists tend to avoid these lanes and use the road instead. Have a look at the cycle lane between lucan and tallaght as a good example of a neglected cycle lane.
My advice, save your money on the fashion statement and spend it on maintenance.
PS: Thanks for comming on here and asking though.
Are you connected with local authority?

irishmotorist

OP - I never realised there was a difference. I thought it was coloured to make it visibly obvious that it was a different part of the road. If there was an option in the poll to say 'What Difference?', I'd select that.

I could go on for a while about cycle paths/lanes in general, but I gather you're just interested in traction on red vs black.

briano

Also, if you come off your bike on one of those lanes they tend to have much more of a sandpaper effect then the road, due to the grit, broken glass and other debris that accumulates in them.

There is about a foot of skin from my neither regions on the path along the east wall road.

crumliniano

After this winter you need a mountain bike to ride on the red cycle paths in Dublin. They are in an awful state.

In general my experience of cycling paths in Dublin is that they are largely unusable. With very few exceptions you spend so much time coming up and down off kerbs and crossing lanes that they are more dangerous than just cycling in the car lanes.

The only "cycle" lanes I use are the bus/cycle lanes. Good surface and no kerbs - the only thing to watch out for is the Dublin bus drivers who I'm convinced have a game going where they try to drive as close to you and as fast as possible without actually hitting you - Maximum points for missing the cyclists head with the wing mirror by less than an inch.

petethedrummer

Black or red hmmmm.....I think either colour can work really well. Here's two examples of good smooth surfaces in both colours.

Lumen

Another thing, on-kerb cycle paths can be dangerous for small children.

I regularly have to cycle on them with my 4 year old, and he can be a bit wobbly, e.g. losing concentration whilst fingerbanging passing cats. At the edge of the path there is a 6 inch (ish) drop to the road. If he wobbles to the right, he'll crash into the road and under the wheels of a bus/taxi. If the path was an on-road lane, his wobble would likely correct itself momentarily, and he'd be unlikely to have an accident.

Make sense it does not.

petethedrummer

Well lets see that the world leaders in cyclelaneology do: http://www.copenhagenize.com/

They have grey ones, blue ones, red ones and black ones. So once we get a few blue ones we'll be adhering to international best practice and our cycle lane problems will be over.

Robertd_07

From personal experience, the stuff you generally see in Dublin as "red macadam" is a coloured grit on an epoxy adhesive. (Like the stuff they're putting down on the approaches to traffic lights)
Red macadam is identical to black macadam, with a colour added to the binding material. It can be made in various colours, to various specifications, i.e. pedestrian traffic, light car or motorway standards.
Once the correct material for the situation is used, as mentioned above, it's the quality of the workmanship that's of paramount importance. (The ridiculous layouts are a matter for another day)
The problem I'm seeing around and about, is that the materials used aren't up to the conditions to which they're exposed, creating a "less than favourable cycling environment".;)

BostonB

kphelan wrote: »

To all you experienced cyclists out there, we would love to hear your views on red macadam cycle paths as opposed to ordinary Tarmac -

Do they work?
Is the surface better/worse to cycle on?

Comments good or bad we'd love to hear them!

Yours
Smarter Travel Team
Dungarvan

I think you need to better define what your talking about.

Doctor Bob

kphelan wrote: »

To all you experienced cyclists out there, we would love to hear your views on red macadam cycle paths as opposed to ordinary Tarmac - [/COLOR

Do they work?
Is the surface better/worse to cycle on?

Comments good or bad we'd love to hear them!

Yours
Smarter Travel Team
Dungarvan

What do you mean by ‘Do they work?’? In what respect? The functionality of cycle lanes/tracks has little to do with their surface treatment, and everything to do with their design and alignment.

Regarding the issue of ride quality, well laid red cycle lanes are generally as good as well laid standard black tarmac roads. Unfortunately, as others have said, we have very little of either in this country, though roads tend to fare a little better as they are swept by vehicular traffic in a way that kerbside cycle lanes and raised cycle tracks are not. This reduces the need for maintenance (reduces, not obviates).

Things you should consider:

The standard red surface dressing (the ‘coloured grit on an epoxy adhesive’ referred to by Robertd_07 above) is more expensive to lay, generally poorly finished by the contractor, and less resilient to wear and tear;

Retro-fitted on-road cycle lanes tend to have the existing surface stripped back so the new surface is flush with the existing- this creates a very nasty seam running in the directon of travel which over time tends to deteriorate, widen and cause a whole host of other problems;

As noted by Robertd_07 above, it really is the case that the quality of the workmanship is the critical factor. In Ireland, we tend wait until the middle of the night to dispatch half a dozen lads in high-viz jackets, piled up on the back of a rusty Blaw-Knox like the Beverly Hillbillies, with their eyes only on the next tea break. In, say, Copenhagen, they close the road(s) during the day, do the work in full visibility, and take pride in their craft. (Same goes for so many crafts/trades in this country- ask a Polish carpenter about nail guns and glue, or ask Daniel Libeskind about German concrete workers…)

I would also caution against taking the opinions of experienced cyclists as key determinants in a Smarter Travel scheme/application. Smarter Travel is (broadly) designed to target non-cyclists- a cohort which would give you very different answers from those given here thus far by we experienced cyclists (though I should note in passing that I don’t fit comfortably into either of Lumen’s categories!).

Re petethedrummer’s comment on colours and the Danish approach- until relatively recently, all cycle lanes in Copenhagen were marked blue through junctions to highlight the potential conflict zones (blue is even more visible than red in the urban environment- they did [or relied on] environmental-psychological research that demonstrates this). However, it was found that this caused some confusion for motorists (I’m not clear on the nature of the confusion), so their current approach is to use blue surfacing on the lane with the highest conflict potential only.

ED E

There's that sh1te on Braemor, its horrible. Not as bad as the Point o2 Roundabout. God that thing is a mess.

briano

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

There's that sh1te on Braemor, its horrible. Not as bad as the Point o2 Roundabout. God that thing is a mess.

That is a horrific part of the world to cycle through. Merging back onto the road with sleepy truck drivers was not a part of my morning commute that I enjoyed, nor was trying to cross the trainlines at 90 degrees on the way home

macadam

Robertd_07 wrote: »

From personal experience, the stuff you generally see in Dublin as "red macadam" is a coloured grit on an epoxy adhesive. (Like the stuff they're putting down on the approaches to traffic lights)
Red macadam is identical to black macadam, with a colour added to the binding material. It can be made in various colours, to various specifications, i.e. pedestrian traffic, light car or motorway standards.
Once the correct material for the situation is used, as mentioned above, it's the quality of the workmanship that's of paramount importance. (The ridiculous layouts are a matter for another day)
The problem I'm seeing around and about, is that the materials used aren't up to the conditions to which they're exposed, creating a "less than favourable cycling environment".;)

Spot on Robertd,

The dyed macadam is of the exact same spec as the blacktop surface, the resin bonded finish is normally pure sh1te if the correct materials are not used.

maca

thebouldwhacker

My 2cents, When I'm on my day to day (a2b) bike I'll cycle on any surface, its an mtb, big thick knobbly tires and all that. when I'm on my road bike I cycle on the road, I wouldn't use a cycle lane as it will prob end up with a puncture. Road traffic keeps the road surface clean and (mostly) free of debris, debris which stays on cycle lanes and leads to the aforementioned punctures. As for the specific red surfaces I tend to agree with the majority of comments saying that it degrades and is realy only useful for those who do not want to share space with traffic...

monument

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well lets see that the world leaders in cyclelaneology do: http://www.copenhagenize.com/

They have grey ones, blue ones, red ones and black ones. So once we get a few blue ones we'll be adhering to international best practice and our cycle lane problems will be over.

"Copenhagen Blue" is painted on to the road surface and generally only used at junctions:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/2998316287/

Victor

You need to use at the hierarchy of measures in the National Cycling Strategy. Painting isn't at the top.

kphelan wrote: »

To all you experienced cyclists out there, we would love to hear your views on red macadam cycle paths as opposed to ordinary Tarmac -

Realise that macadam is rarely used on roads - most roads are asphalt. Macadam is the cheap stuff they still in potholes that comes out after a few days and to be honest is only really suitable for domestic drives and the like.

The coloured epoxy stuff that is surface applied is commonly used, but the asphalt that is red the whole way through is much better wearing.

Do they work?

The change in colour does create a visual effect of a narrow road and that encourages people to slow down. However, **never** do it with a traffic lane narrow than 4.5m as it can deceive motorists into thinking it is safe to pass the cyclist, when they may actually be impinging on the cycle lane - being smacked on the back of the head by the mirror of a bus or truck is not fun.

Is the surface better/worse to cycle on?

For the first few weeks grip is worse because the chippings come loose. After that, the grip is good, until it starts to suffer wear and weather action at which point it becomes patchy. Given the utter mediocrity of cleaning and maintenance régimes in this country, the surfaces are not maintained and wear away.

Also, many motorists tend to think that if they park with one wheel on the footpath and another inside the cycle lane that they won't interfere with traffic. One such car destroys the entire cycle lane for several hundred metres.

If you want to create on road cycle lanes, having a proper cleaning and maintenance régime is important and putting a cycle logo every, say, 50m might be better than red paint. That said, the scary bit for most cyclists is junctions, not straight bits of road and solving the junctions might be a better spend.

SubLuminal

As I've said before, the cycle lanes are a p*ss take. Its almost like a dirty trick played on cyclists by people who want to make cycling so unpleasant that new cyclists get back into their cars, fearful of death.

There are some good cycle lanes in dublin, I can think of a handful. But! Generally, they're broken up, potholey, full of broken glass, crap, dirt and dust (which means you lose the front wheel on a corner, resulting in a painful crash), they appear to have been designed by a group of children on an outing from a local school for children with special & complex needs, as the pictures above demonstrate, don't even get me started on the cycle lanes along the quays on the north side, they're also used as handy parking spaces by anyone who has a car and decides they want to stop randomly.. need I continue?

What was the question? The quality of the surface? Who cares - unless you're going to make an actual commitment to the MAINTENANCE of the cycle lanes, then the actual MATERIAL of them is, well, immaterial. We don't care. I for one would much rather you just sent someone out with a bucket of whitewash and a paintbrush and spent the money on maintaining the cycle lanes, keeping them clean, and actually thinking out the route, than spending thousands on expensive red cr*p that you then leave to rot.

Putting down cycle lanes isn't a 'fire and forget' solution. You need to commit to keeping them safe, maintained, and usable. If you're not doing to do that, do nothing, because you lull people into a false sense of security with your red roads, and then they find that following your route has put them in real danger, or made them come off their bikes, or etc etc - and that being the case, people are better off fighting for their space against the cars, and making their own calls, and judging their own risks.

petethedrummer

Some of Monument's pics which illustrate the problem with the red stuff.

macadam

Petethedrummer,

Those pictures are of resin bonded epoxy coated with light chippings that was probably put down on a wet or damp surface and hence with the hard weather this is what it ends up like.

Victor,

Macadam is still laid on 75% 0f our roads, asphalt is mainly for motorways and heavily trafficked carrigeways, the material you are thinking about is probably tar and chips you see the council boys (all 7 of them) putting into the pot holes.
Red macadam is exactly the same spec as the black macadam except for the dye.

Capt'n Midnight

I was heading up Constitution Hill this evening, there is red tarmac with dashed lines on the left of one of the two car lanes but the rest of the lane is so narrow that cars have to drive on the red part. And it's not just a few feet at a junction either.

I don't know how anyone can consider it to be a cycle lane.

petethedrummer

macadam wrote: »

Petethedrummer, etc...

grand. I just like posting pictures of awful cycle lanes.

biomed32

i personally find the cycle lanes rubbbish in the sense that card and vans use them as a parking spot, moterbikes use them too even though they are a road vechial, they are always in a terrible condition in terms of pot holes and wear and tear and they are generally interrupted all the way usually punctured with manholes and drains every few meters, i dont know if others think that way but i find them generally useless

BostonB

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I was heading up Constitution Hill this evening, there is red tarmac with dashed lines on the left of one of the two car lanes but the rest of the lane is so narrow that cars have to drive on the red part. And it's not just a few feet at a junction either.

I don't know how anyone can consider it to be a cycle lane.

Same coming from the canal down to Island Bridge. The cycle lane is tiny, and is completely covered by two lanes of traffic. Made worse that theres a U shaped drain running along the kerb there, which drags you in.

Also a problem is theres a filter left as you hit the dual carraige way. So if you are going straight on you need to be in the right lane not in the cycle lane. Of course you get people going staight on in the left lane, as you cross back from the right lane back to the cycle lane.

I nearly had a crash there yesterday. Cars bumper to bumper and I'm in the cycle lane, as I cross the yellow box a car coming the other way turns into the gap nearly hitting me, but we both managed to brake. Ironically if I'd not been in the cycle lane but going up the outside of the traffic, they'd have seen me earlier.

BostonB

Pity there isn't a survey done on two similar roads one with red the other without and see if it makes any difference to drivers behaviour in terms of parking, and driving in the cycle lane.

I think they do it less on the the red. But thats just anecdotal.

Capt'n Midnight

BostonB wrote: »

Pity there isn't a survey done on two similar roads one with red the other without and see if it makes any difference to drivers behaviour in terms of parking, and driving in the cycle lane.

I think they do it less on the the red. But thats just anecdotal.

IMHO A lot of that is down to the small size of print on the times on the lane or general ignorance about where they can legally park rather than respect for others. Fear of getting ticketed is probably the main driver here. Look at the behaviour of the white van man to compare.

Motorists also avoid bus lanes when they are allowed to drive in them. Look at how many people still sit in queues when a lot of the lanes open at 7pm. To me this again suggests ignorance rather than respect.




There is no point in having laws that aren't enforced, as this just teaches a sub section of the population that they can get away with it. Same with cycle lanes, if drivers are used to the idea that they can drive / park in cycle lanes then at a concious / subconscious level they will not be programmed to avoid them at all costs, we want cycle lanes to be like bus lanes, where the vast majority of motorists avoid them., otherwise what is the point ???



Just to raise the issue of junctions again,as they are where most collisions occur, to get up to cruising speed from a stop takes roughly the same energy as to travel 300m. So if you travel on a cycle lane parallel to a main road but have to yield to traffic on a side road at a junction then it's the same as adding a lot of distance to your journey. Also by staying on the main road you have right of way over the side road and so the traffic on it should have to respect your right of way and wait for you rather than visa versa.

On a side note, can we please have more street furniture to lean against when stopped at the lights

It may be safer for cyclists to cross junctions by dismounting and using the pedestrian crossing but anyone who suggests doing that for every junction ?? , and this is more or less what having a cycle lane have lower priority to a side road does.

NB. there are junctions where it's far safer to use the crossing than take a right turn and it's a very useful way to avoid no-right turn signs

cdaly_

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Motorists also avoid bus lanes when they are allowed to drive in them. Look at how many people still sit in queues when a lot of the lanes open at 7pm.

SSSH! Don't tell them!

I love it when you get a bus lane like that. Only trouble is, on one occasion, as I was driving in a not-currently-in-use bus lane I was stopped by a cop. I was all ready with my "But officer, it's not a valid bus lane if there are no signs" when he said: "What are you doing overtaking on the left?"...

Now, if I'd been ready with my reply of: "Wondering what all those other drivers are doing in the wrong lane", I'd prolly have ended up with a ticket.

monument

For anybody who has not seen it: Poll and thread over on Commuting and Transport about what you think of Irish cycle lane -- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055874645

tomasrojo

BostonB wrote: »

I nearly had a crash there yesterday. Cars bumper to bumper and I'm in the cycle lane, as I cross the yellow box a car coming the other way turns into the gap nearly hitting me, but we both managed to brake. Ironically if I'd not been in the cycle lane but going up the outside of the traffic, they'd have seen me earlier.

Sounds familiar. The closest I ever came to being struck by a car occurred at a yellow box in similar circumstances. No cycle lane involved in my case, but I learnt very vividly that when general traffic isn't moving, cross yellow boxes with GREAT caution.

LastGasp

Lumen wrote: »

I regularly have to cycle on them with my 4 year old, and he can be a bit wobbly, e.g. losing concentration whilst fingerbanging passing cats.

I took my 7 year old for a spin on a Sunday through Sandyford Industrial Estate. He was on the raised footpath, and I was on the road, to his right just in case of a big wobble. The road was empty (Sunday morning) and some a***hole in a painters van still felt the urge to blast me out of it with his horn, and make all sorts of furious gestures, 'cause I was riding on the road. What a pr**k !

chakattack

Terenure road north heading for Harold's Cross

There are parking spaces superimposed on the cycle lane. Planning Genius!

petethedrummer

chakattack wrote: »

Terenure road north heading for Harold's Cross

There are parking spaces superimposed on the cycle lane. Planning Genius!

Stuff like that is so retarded it makes my brain hurt with rage.

blorg

chakattack wrote: »

Terenure road north heading for Harold's Cross

There are parking spaces superimposed on the cycle lane. Planning Genius!

Generally those sort of lanes are temporal, e.g. parking some part of the day and cycle lane the other part. That is certainly the case in Ranelagh where there are also parking spaces on top of the cycle lane. It should say what hours the cycle lane is in operation on the sign.

petethedrummer

They have those in Stoneybatter and on James' St. and they're always full of cars at the wrong times.

Capt'n Midnight

Bloody PD's :mad::mad::mad:

Today I moved left so the left wheel of my car wouldn't have to go over a speed bump.

As soon as I did it I realised that yes I drove in a cycle lane.

The reason I'm annoyed is that thanks to the PD's and their faux cycle lanes that motorists can drive anytime they need to I no longer associate red tarmac as a space I have to avoid. :mad::mad::mad:





Must dig up a photo of the outer ring road, which shows that cycle lanes are only cleaned by motorists driving in them. Loads of grit. Are the councils supposed to road sweep the on road ones ? , Do they ever sweep the off road ones ?