Irish Rail exposé in Tribune

HeritageRailway

GM071class wrote: »

I actually texted George Hook when he had 'The King of PR' Barry Kenny on with him.
In the text I posed the question of why its slower, by an HOUR in some cases, than it was in the 80's to get to Cork from Dublin.

Current timetable allows circa 2 hours 50 minutes and of which 20 minutes is recovery time towards each termini. When did a train do Dublin-Cork in 1 hour 50 minutes?

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

All additional services on the KRP have been postponed. What does it matter about when they were meant to start.

There is a big difference between postponed and cancelled. For example, the use of 22000s on the Dublin to Wexford line was postponed but it did happen eventually.

GM071class

HeritageRailway wrote: »

Current timetable allows circa 2 hours 50 minutes and of which 20 minutes is recovery time towards each termini. When did a train do Dublin-Cork in 1 hour 50 minutes?

CIÉ at the time of timber bodied carriages on the mainline, had fairly long sets of carriages doing the run 'Super-Express' in 2 hours 15, the average these days is, granted, 45mins slower (3 being average).

Recovery time is a typical example of IÉ messaging the results of punctuality.

I have a timetable from 2006 at home, the 17.00 to Cork, calling at the same stops, got in nearly 25mins earlier, I'll double check that when I get home though.

The journey times have been pushed back too far. They can sh!te on about more trains on the routes, but that's no help when trying to deal with the airlines, and the lovely motor car!

KenGriffin

I'm not going to intervene too heavily here but there's a few points I would like to clear up.

"Concentration camp trains" - that's a direct quote taken from the passenger involved. It's a statement of his opinion - not mine or the newspaper's. I have no control over what he says to me.

KRP - All the promised additional services have been postponed indefinitely. I apologise if that was unclear from the article.

monument

KenGriffin wrote: »

"Concentration camp trains" - that's a direct quote taken from the passenger involved. It's a statement of his opinion - not mine or the newspaper's. I have no control over what he says to me..

Quoting is a selective process. It's your choice to include or exclude quotes.

Once it gets out of your hand's it's the newspaper's choice. And not only was the quote used in the article, it was used again in one of the photo captions -- this is even clearer selection.

You and the newspaper did have control.

JHMEG wrote: »

Better yes, acceptable no. Comfortable also no. Some of the trains are so stuffed that I'd hate to think of what would happen if there was a fire.

Compared to what service and where? Is it not standard for trains to get packed at rush hour in most cities around the world?

Transportuser09

monument wrote: »

Quoting is a selective process. It's your choice to include or exclude quotes.

Once it gets out of your hand's it's the newspaper's choice. And not only was the quote used in the article, it was used again in one of the photo captions -- this is even clearer selection.

You and the newspaper did have control.

Indeed. And the quote selected does smack of sensationalism.
Overcrowding on suburban trains/subways is not the sole preserve of Irish Rail - its to be found in cities all over the world, sometimes on a far worse scale than in Dublin.

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

We have no idea what trains are available for what. There's a 2700 set being painted to look like a 22K to Keep Colman Quiet rather than being out carrying passengers (although I secretly hope even IE aren't dumb enough to do it at a time when they weren't already doing a heavy check on the set).

I think that is a bit unfair - I fail to see the need to get personal against people even if you disagree with them. The 2700 sets are having their gangways at the cab ends removed and receiving a thorough overhaul including a respray - so I think it is a bit more than your opening comment suggests.

I certainly have quite a good idea of what sets are available and what could be done - with some forensic analysis that is possible.

Transportuser09

"Although they are officially undergoing heavy maintenance, they have proven consistently faulty and may never return to service – the company admits that it's struggling to source spare parts for them."

In fairness the fact that parts can not be got for the 8200 Darts is not neccessarily that of Irish Rail.

"The fleet of over 100 carriages is currently decaying in railway yards across the country. Gleeson believes that the 20-year-old fleet should return to some intercity routes to free up extra capacity for commuter services."

Agreed that some of the fleet should be- until the arrival of more 22000 sets. Ironically though a few years ago I remember complaints in papers about the 'old orange trains' - of lines like that to Sligo getting 'handy me downs',etc... And yes one article I remember involved mk3s on the Cork line. That said would make sense to keep a set, maybe two, until more railcars come into service.

"These comments will provide little comfort to Wexford commuters, however – they will soon be speaking of the Waterford-to-Rosslare line in the past tense as they ponder whether any of the money used on dud Darts, unneeded capacity and the indiscriminate purchasing of new carriages could have saved their service."

I'd say a simple recasting of the timetable is more the issue here than the money spent on the other things listed. As for 'unneeded capacity', this goes against the argument that there is a lack of capacity on services.

KC61

KenGriffin wrote: »

KRP - All the promised additional services have been postponed indefinitely. I apologise if that was unclear from the article.

That as may be, but as I've made clear they couldn't have happened until the end of next year in any case given the lack of rolling stock.

Given the way that IE timetabling plans change each year (and can do significantly) right up just before the timetable is introduced this point could yet change.

That's the point that I have been making, along with the fact that the KRP will deliver much needed flexibility in peak hour operations.

Transportuser09

KC61 wrote: »

That as may be, but as I've made clear they couldn't have happened until the end of next year in any case given the lack of rolling stock.

Given the way that IE timetabling plans change each year (and can do significantly) right up just before the timetable is introduced this point could yet change.

That's the point that I have been making, along with the fact that the KRP will deliver much needed flexibility in peak hour operations.

Agreed. So for the article to say the KRP is 'surplus to requirements' is very wrong and comes across as badly researched. Likewise, to refer to the mk3s as 'modern' is also misleading, potentially useful they may be but modern they are not.

lord lucan

JD,is this your handywork in the comments under the Tribune article?:D

"#4 Tarquin Finchley commented, on April 11, 2010 at 10:35 p.m.:
Is this article anti Children's Charity!
Myself and Nigel Fitzgricer shall be making the journey over from the Mainland for the Western Rail Corridor Railway Children's Special and I can assure you that it all for the children and not to have Irish taxpayers support our trainspotting.
For shame!"

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/apr/11/rail-against-the-machine/

JHMEG

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Overcrowding on suburban trains/subways is not the sole preserve of Irish Rail - its to be found in cities all over the world, sometimes on a far worse scale than in Dublin.

In places like Tokyo and Hong Kong where they are over-crowded because they physically cannot run any more trains, which amounts to a damn site more than 4 trains an hour.

Also, and speaking from the top of my head, I would be fairly sure they have top-tier emergency plans in place in the event of a fire etc. Aside from calling 999 I doubt IE have much of a plan.

HeritageRailway

GM071class wrote: »

CIÉ at the time of timber bodied carriages on the mainline, had fairly long sets of carriages doing the run 'Super-Express' in 2 hours 15, the average these days is, granted, 45mins slower (3 being average).

Recovery time is a typical example of IÉ messaging the results of punctuality.

I have a timetable from 2006 at home, the 17.00 to Cork, calling at the same stops, got in nearly 25mins earlier, I'll double check that when I get home though.

The journey times have been pushed back too far. They can sh!te on about more trains on the routes, but that's no help when trying to deal with the airlines, and the lovely motor car!

Dublin-Cork services are allowed 2 hours and 50 minutes but often have done the journey in 2 hours 30 minutes; this including generous dwell times at all stations en route, KRP and other workings, Port Laois speed restrictions and Limerick Junction; they add about 10 minutes to the overall trip. Most services have about 20 minutes added for KRP delays so all told, 2 hours 20 minutes is realistic on Dublin-Cork.

I suspect that "Super Train" was a once a week non stop service pre KRC hence it's time but it does show what can be done when all goes to plan.

FlameoftheWest

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, despite being a fan of 'The Right Hook' the unchallenged IE/Barry Kenny 'love-in' is enough to make me spew. How much are Newstalk being paid by CIE/IE for this spot? As much as the Phoenix magazine were paid in pointless double page spread adverts from CIE/IE for dropping ALL vaguely critical pieces about the company?

This was going on for years with the Sunday Business Post - who upon getting the big fat cheque from CIE for a colour propaganda "look, aren't we just fantastic at trains!" supplement would go to war (nothing to see here...just a coincidence...) against the Luas.

Went on for years.

KenGriffin

KC61 wrote: »

That as may be, but as I've made clear they couldn't have happened until the end of next year in any case given the lack of rolling stock.

Just one final point of clarification:

I am aware of the rolling stock situation and the fact that none of the additional services would have come into effect until the next batch of 22ks arrived.

Judgement Day

lord lucan wrote: »

JD,is this your handywork in the comments under the Tribune article?:D

"#4 Tarquin Finchley commented, on April 11, 2010 at 10:35 p.m.:
Is this article anti Children's Charity!
Myself and Nigel Fitzgricer shall be making the journey over from the Mainland for the Western Rail Corridor Railway Children's Special and I can assure you that it all for the children and not to have Irish taxpayers support our trainspotting.
For shame!"

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/apr/11/rail-against-the-machine/

Looks more like Flame of the West Nostradamus to me.

Sponge Bob

Thanks Ken, good article , entirely fair. I await the 4 page pullout the ed simply could not refuse in a quiet week which is no reflection on the article itself...never will be

If I were you I would research the money that IE got over the years for 2.5hours Dublin to Galway and 2 Hours Dublin - Cork starting with their signalling projects in the 1970's

They have promised those holy grails since the 1970s and are now slower than they were on both routes (averaging all trains) around 1970 I believe.

They creamed the roads back then but never seem to have noticed the motorways or else they thought that DoT would not licence express buses. But they did.

The Go Bus service from Galway to Dublin Airport is now 2.5 hours with free wifi and with the train you may get to Heuston in that time ...maybe.

Not worth saving and I don't believe them any more, same promises and lies peddled for 40 years. Billions spent

Galway to Ennis takes 1 hour and 40 minutes on a brand new track, I know people who have CYCLED it in less than that .

and Jeez, look who joined that facebook Group :eek:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117098984972045

Judgement Day

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thanks Ken, If I were you I would research the money that IE got over the years for 2.5hours Dublin to Galway and 2 Hours Dublin - Cork starting with their signalling projects in the 1970's

They have promised those holy grails since the 1980s and are now slower than they were on both routes around 1970 I believe.

Not worth saving and I don't believe them any more

and Jeez, look who joined the facebook Group :eek:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117098984972045

Or 90 minutes to Belfast promised 20 years ago and today most trains on that route are slower than they were then.

Sponge Bob

Judgement Day wrote: »

Or 90 minutes to Belfast promised 20 years ago and today most trains on that route are slower than they were then.

They rolled out those promises to resignal their lines in the 1970s 1980s
Then they had 'track problems' so they replaced it all in the 1990s for passenger lines, every inch of it bar around Roscrea.
Then they said their locos were maxed at 70-75mph and got new locos ( twice including Cork ones that they mothballed and them 10 years old)
Now they have railcars which are the same speed as the locos.

They may be 10 minutes faster to Sligo but not to Cork Galway Belfast where they make their money.

I am sick of them.

DWCommuter

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They rolled out those promises to resignal their lines in the 1970s 1980s
Then they had 'track problems' so they replaced it all in the 1990s for passenger lines, every inch of it bar around Roscrea.
Then they said their locos were maxed at 70-75mph and got new locos ( twice including Cork ones that they mothballed and them 10 years old)
Now they have railcars which are the same speed as the locos.

They may be 10 minutes faster to Sligo but not to Cork Galway Belfast where they make their money.

I am sick of them.

Sponge, you are a legend!

L1011

Transportuser09 wrote: »

In fairness the fact that parts can not be got for the 8200 Darts is not neccessarily that of Irish Rail.

They bought them without ensuring they were of a decent quality, they failed to reject them when they turned out to be useless and they failed to source a spare parts supply for them for the expected life of a trainset (40 years). All three are Irish Rail's fault.

Sponge Bob

Add all that lot up and they have spent €2bn on Capex to 'make things better' and all we have is slower trains .

The run from Rosslare to Pearse Street is now _allegedly_ slower than it was in 1910 .

It takes IE between 2 hours 40 and 3 hours 4 minutes to get from Rosslare to Pearse Street. About 80 miles...maybe 85 miles at a serious push ?????

I once heard it apparently took 2 hours 30 in 1910, the shaggin vacumn railway would probably beat the current lot even if it was out of coal

Transportuser09

MYOB wrote: »

They bought them without ensuring they were of a decent quality, they failed to reject them when they turned out to be useless and they failed to source a spare parts supply for them for the expected life of a trainset (40 years). All three are Irish Rail's fault.

Well in fairness they were relatively trouble free at the start. I seem to remember them being in service regularly for a few years, frequently with the original 8600 sets. So I don't know if they can 'reject' them a few years down the road. It doesn't really appear to have been till they got the newer air-con'd Darts that they seemed to disappear from traffic.

dowlingm

I think 40 years might be a bit ambitious for a commuter EMU no?

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

I think 40 years might be a bit ambitious for a commuter EMU no?

Like everything, it depends on what you start on with and how it is treated along the way. I saw one operator (I don't recollect, but I think in the Balkans) in Europe is pushing for 50 years. While not every vehicle will make it to 40 years, 76 of the original 80 DART carriages are still with us after ~27 years and have been recently refurbished. As a fleet nears its end of life, it can be easy to use the spare part stock and cannibalisation to keep a portion of the fleet in use for an extended period unless there is critical part that becomes unavailable.

But if you are spending €1-2m per carriage, you'd like it to last longer than 10 years.

alentejo

In Lisbon Portugal, several EMU's are over 40 years old. They had a mid life upgrade about ten years or so and would appear to have a lot more life.

I think there is a prob when you have 10 year old Darts which are considered past there sell by date. This is a disgrace.

Cookie_Monster

alentejo wrote: »

I think there is a prob when you have 10 year old Darts which are considered past there sell by date. This is a disgrace.

same with the mk3s, same with the 201s, probably soon to be the same with the 2700/2750...


Personally I find the 8100 DARTs to still be the most comfortable and spacious between the seats

markpb

Transportuser09 wrote: »

So I don't know if they can 'reject' them a few years down the road.

Standard large value contracts (and there's no doubt that a shipment of railcars falls into this category) are subject to retentions by the client to ensure the product is good for several years. Either Irish Rail didn't put that into the contract, gave the money back too quickly or just didn't care because they thought they could get more money from the government. There's no defending this.

DWCommuter

markpb wrote: »

Standard large value contracts (and there's no doubt that a shipment of railcars falls into this category) are subject to retentions by the client to ensure the product is good for several years. Either Irish Rail didn't put that into the contract, gave the money back too quickly or just didn't care because they thought they could get more money from the government. There's no defending this.

You're right. There is no defending it. But its great fun watching those who try. I'll grab another latte!:D

murphaph

One presumes climate has an effect on the expected and actual lifespan of any rolling stock. I am not surprised that units in drier climates last longer. The DART does pretty well at 27 given the damp, sea air it runs beside.

I think underground systems for example, tend to get even longer out of their vehicles as the stock spends so much of it's life out of the elements!