Irish Rail exposé in Tribune

Transportuser09

Hungerford wrote: »

As for Kenny's claim that IE isn't dysfunctional, what do you call an organisation that has forgotten how to fix viaducts? Or which is battling several managers in the courts?

You make a good point, there are dysfunctional elements in the company. The Malahide collapse should never ahve been allowed to happen. But over all it functions reasonably well in terms of services delivered to passengers.

Hungerford

Transportuser09 wrote: »

In fairness though, IÉ did improve service frequency on many of its routes (Cork, Sligo...), but in some cases the recession has knocked this back a bit.

The original article referred to that IIRC. On a second reading, Kenny's letter brings to mind a cornered rat - lashing out wildly without any legitimate complaint.

Judgement Day

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Having read Mr. Kenny's reply it generally seems a fair enough response, although he does seem to avoid the issue of Rosslare-Waterford. However, I'd certainly agree with him on some of the other issues - I can't understand why people would be against a rail company buying new trains. Mr Kenny has outlined the position with the mk3s also. You can't agrue with him over the original article being misleading and selective, the casual reader would have thought IÉ had spent loads of money on a rail project they were never going to use, when obviously that is not the case at all. I suspect the author was 'fed' bits of information by a well known users group. That said the letter does seem to skirt around the South Wexford issue, although the original article didn't place a great amount of detail on it either.

Barry Kenny's letter is full of lies, half truths and spin. What about the MkIII's that have already been scrapped? He didn't mention the South Wexford line because the whole run-down and closure of the line is indefensible and heads should roll for the scandalous waste of money on the route over the last 40+ years! Whether you approve of Midleton or the WRC, the fact remains that CIE/IE had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the reopenings as they were not on their agenda.

Transportuser09

Judgement Day wrote: »

Barry Kenny's letter is full of lies, half truths and spin.

I don't see any lies in that letter, spin maybe but lies?

Transportuser09

Judgement Day wrote: »

What about the MkIII's that have already been scrapped? .

You wouldn't expect IÉ to keep all of the mk3s. As Barry Kenny as stated, they are retaining some in case of a need for them in the future, such as on the Enterprise. I can't imagine they would need all of them though. The Cú na Mara set was non-standard, so from an economical p.o.v. it makes sense to keep a standard fleet in terms of spare parts. If they want to get rid of the worst-off ones it makes sense, rather than keep 100+ vehicles of which only portion can be found a use for.

dowlingm

This is a company that given the choice between the following three options:

1. Have destination displays that work
2. Have destination displays that are switched off
3. Have destination displays that show COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LINES, never mind the wrong terminus

picks option 3. Even IRN has a running thread now on its sixth page on when IE gets their destination displays wrong.

How BK has the nerve to show his face week after week to defend this company is staggering.

Judgement Day

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I don't see any lies in that letter, spin maybe but lies?

Regarding our 25-year-old Mark III fleet, as Mr Griffin was told, the fleet has been placed in storage pending an upturn in passenger numbers in the future. We would still envisage in the future potential use for some Mk IIIs – for example on an expanded Dublin/Belfast service. Customer feedback confirms to us that customers do care that trains are modern, with up-to-date standards of facilities, comfort and accessibility, which our new Intercity fleets deliver, with fleet reliability and punctuality benefiting accordingly.

What part of this don't you understand? Anybody, not in the know, reading this would assume that the entire MkIII fleet was carefully mothballed in storage sheds - not that some are already scrapped and others flogged off for half nothing.

Judgement Day

CIE/IE is a railway company that can't even produce a public timetable anymore. It orders new trains without SDO (Selective Door Opening); the same trains are designed so that the carriage of parcels and bicycles is virtually impossible. It buys a fleet of 201 class diesels that are too heavy for most of the network and now are being mothballed; it ordered MkIV carriages for Dublin/Cork that ride as roughly as the wonderful steam (heated) Cravens; it does away with old signalling systems/Fastrack etc but retains all the staff previously employed - to do nothing.....and so on and so on and so on - Oh God what's the point everything is wonderful .......!!!!

Transportuser09

Judgement Day wrote: »

Regarding our 25-year-old Mark III fleet, as Mr Griffin was told, the fleet has been placed in storage pending an upturn in passenger numbers in the future. We would still envisage in the future potential use for some Mk IIIs – for example on an expanded Dublin/Belfast service. Customer feedback confirms to us that customers do care that trains are modern, with up-to-date standards of facilities, comfort and accessibility, which our new Intercity fleets deliver, with fleet reliability and punctuality benefiting accordingly.

What part of this don't you understand? Anybody, not in the know, reading this would assume that the entire MkIII fleet was carefully mothballed in storage sheds - not that some are already scrapped and others flogged off for half nothing.

I see what you mean but it does say there is a potential use for some mkIIIs, not all. Anybody not in the know would assume that they envisaged a use for some of its fleet, it makes no claim that all would be used. Would the public really care if a few have been scrapped? And I mean the general public, not rail enthusiasts. As far as I know the majority of the fleet still exist, there were reports on another site that a few had been scrapped in Waterford but as far as I know theres a good few rakes out there still. The people on IRN could tell you better where, I think Waterford is one location.

dowlingm

Leaving the 3s outside open to tagging and the elements is not storage. Leaving them on sidings like Waterford while travellers to Dublin passing those sidings are squashed into 3 x 22K which might have been 6-7 Mk3s previously is tantamount to mockery. This is how the Mk3s should have been stored.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Leaving the 3s outside open to tagging and the elements is not storage. Leaving them on sidings like Waterford while travellers to Dublin passing those sidings are squashed into 3 x 22K which might have been 6-7 Mk3s previously is tantamount to mockery. This is how the Mk3s should have been stored.

by the time consultants and others were paid and different materials tested and irish rail staff trained in unwrapping with special courses and bonuses/allowances etc it would cost more than giving those old crocks to the army for target practice!

monument

Comparably to the amount of hyperbole in the article any spin in the reply is small.

I think it's worth reposting some of the main problems with the article:

The Kildare Route Project cannot be seen as "a culture of waste". The project is not even complete, two tracks are/have being dug up in large parts at the moment. New stock is due next year and can be used then to allow for an increase in services on the route (Some new railcars were damaged beyond use in transit, this can't be seen as Irish Rail's fault).

Even if extra services are not provided straight away after completion, the four tracking will still allow current express intercity services to pass out current commuter services. And, in any case, the project is really a long-term part of the Dart expansion project.

"Overcrowding" is normal in cities around the world. Saying Irish trains are like concentration-camp trains is sensationalist drivel. You can't just make a big deal about "overcrowding" unless you can quantify it as something not normal in cities around the world on a day-to-day bases. OR you could make a political deal out of it -- take the line that more people are using their cars that would use the trains but there are not enough services provided when there's room and demand for more. With the a Green Party in power this is something.

Mark 3s are not "modern", it's nonsense to call them such. There's the valid point that at least some should have been revamped or refit for use. But even this can be seen as subjective -- would the Government have paid for this instead or along side paying for new trains?

A "trainspotters' excursion" is mentioned near the start of the article, were told only near the end it is a charity event. Most readers and commuters would not care. Some posters here do because they are a little too bitter towards trainspotters. Mentioning of a "refurbishing" of these carriages which are to be used is also likely over the top given they likely will be only cleaned out.

Like on this board all too often, there is a disconnect in blaming Irish Rail for many things which are actually the Governments fault -- cutbacks etc

The article used sensationalism when there is more than enough out there about Irish Rail for there to be no need for such.

The valid points -- like slower journey times, and new motorways are making this more important -- get pushed aside by the hype. As I said before, the flaws in the article allows Irish Rail to dismiss it all. And the speed restrictions stuff should not be covered until the court case covers them (or the cases are dropped etc).

Judgement Day wrote: »

CIE/IE is a railway company that can't even produce a public timetable anymore. It orders new trains without SDO (Selective Door Opening); the same trains are designed so that the carriage of parcels and bicycles is virtually impossible. It buys a fleet of 201 class diesels that are too heavy for most of the network and now are being mothballed; it ordered MkIV carriages for Dublin/Cork that ride as roughly as the wonderful steam (heated) Cravens; it does away with old signalling systems/Fastrack etc but retains all the staff previously employed - to do nothing.....and so on and so on and so on - Oh God what's the point everything is wonderful .......!!!!

These -- and other things -- were not covered in the original article.

But then again, it tried to cover other issues like overcrowding without covering the detail which matters, going for sensationalism instead.

Hungerford wrote: »

I think you'll find that that's the reality distortion field in full flow. The original article doesn't really put forward any position regarding the purchase of new trains.

Err... I think Tranportuser was commenting on DWCommuter's video, not Barry Kenny's letter.

dowlingm

here you go again monument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Once BK brings a cudgel when his customers simply want him to do his job - like tell them IN ADVANCE when Rosslare services are deferred, as on Saturday, or when extra trains are put on rather than having to know the secret sign that there might be a trip home by rail after a U2 concert.

Your attempt to rationalise the fact that an out of service set was refurbished and tested on the mainline at Irish taxpayer expense for an event that won't benefit one Irish person (at least none living in Ireland) and which will be patronised by people who fit the description of trainspotter or enthusiast almost to a man (and it will be almost entirely men on that train, I'm betting, going on photos from previous events) will be taken seriously by few.

Your justification for overcrowding neglects the fact that the competing services are not similarly overcrowded, something that was not lost on those who were forced to use them during Broadmeadow and didn't return.

Even before you get to overcrowding, IE fail on basic stuff like personal security, the ability to buy fares when and where needed, even stuff like having seat reservations honoured and the correct bloody destination on the front of the train. This is the simple stuff, before you get to whether they could worry more about putting a late Docklands service on from the Point than a UK charity's charter.

Whether Mk3s are modern or not - you give a 3 a decent internal gut and refit on the lines the LRCs are getting in Moncton, I doubt you will find a customer who can tell them from a 4 - except that they might prefer the ride quality. They certainly won't miss the engine noise they'd get in a 22.

Cutbacks are a factor of subvention. If IE management hadn't acted like a bunch of bullies over the rostering issues a few years ago, especially in their inability to manage a cranky bunch in Cork, maybe they could have cut costs rather than services and made do with the reduced subvention. Instead, the union heels will be well dug in and workers have no incentive to reveal the kind of graft we saw with the sleeper sales.

Irish Rail gets 200 million euro from a tax base that just fell off a cliff - about 40% of their income. It's time for them to do better - starting with the Information Minister. It's time for him to stop blaming his critics and start demanding that his co-workers stop making him defend the indefensible.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

So in conclusion the state railway operator has wasted alot of money on new railway carriages and railway track? What should they have spent the money on? This must be the only country in the world where people complain about investment in public transport.

If you weren't so blinded by your own love affair with IE, then you would appreciate a message saying, that despite new trains and track, the company has failed in many other areas. Its rather simple.

Hungerford

monument wrote: »

The Kildare Route Project cannot be seen as "a culture of waste". The project is not even complete, two tracks are/have being dug up in large parts at the moment. New stock is due next year and can be used then to allow for an increase in services on the route

Is that you Barry? Seriously, the project is wasted at least in the short-term if IE don't introduce the services they had planned for the route. And they told the Tribune that they had scrapped their plans for doing so.

"Overcrowding" is normal in cities around the world. Saying Irish trains are like concentration-camp trains is sensationalist drivel. You can't just make a big deal about "overcrowding" unless you can quantify it as something not normal in cities around the world on a day-to-day bases.

The comment about concentration camp trains was a direct quote from a user. And Irish Rail's services are overcrowded. Badly overcrowded due to the lack of proper standards on acceptable crowding levels.

Mark 3s are not "modern", it's nonsense to call them such. There's the valid point that at least some should have been revamped or refit for use.

It depends on your definition of modern, I suppose. They have automatic doors and meet modern standards [apart from the lack of a PIS]. To put it another way, Barry would be whinging if the Dart wasn't described as modern, even though the carraiges are older than the MK3s.

A "trainspotters' excursion" is mentioned near the start of the article, were told only near the end it is a charity event. Most readers and commuters would not care.

You don't care that IE is spending taxpayer's money doing up a train for a one-shot event when it is cutting services? :eek:

And the speed restrictions stuff should not be covered until the court case covers them (or the cases are dropped etc).

I thought the mention in the article was fine. It was a factual statement of the situation on that line.

I suppose what I find funny is that we've been calling out for a decent IE expose for years and when one appears, we start complaining that its overly simplistic or doesn't cover anything.

These things though are written for a general audience in mind not people like us. The man on the street would view the KRP as a waste if none of the extra services arrive. He doesn't care about the strategic long-term value. He wants more options to get from A to B in comfort.

KC61

I'll say it again - the KRP story is a non-story as it is totally irrelevant until the rolling stock arrives as there is nothing to operate extra trains. The clarification that Ken put up states clearly that new services may be considered when the stock arrives. That is not going to be until December 2011 at the earliest.

The KRP will deliver improvements in reliablility for existing services in the short term with the ability to overtake and also the improved signalling arrangements allow for shorter gaps between trains as far as Kildare.

The other article was in the main quite valid, focussing on the shameful lack of use of the Mark 3 stock, the lengthening journey times etc.

It is perfectly valid to discuss the myriad of speed restrictions that are on the railway at present as they have caused major difficulties to operating the railway - things are improving but there is a long way still to go. Personally I think the imperative now is to rebuild the formation of the Dublin/Cork line - that is the real problem.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Personally I think the imperative now is to rebuild the formation of the Dublin/Cork line - that is the real problem.

do you mean foundation or something else here, I'm confused

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

do you mean foundation or something else here, I'm confused

Yes - it's the ground up on which the line is built - it is called the formation.

Judgement Day

KC61 wrote: »

Yes - it's the ground up on which the line is built - it is called the formation.

That's all very well in theory but what it would mean in practice would be more delays, speed restrictions and bus substitutions which will drive even more passengers away.

Solair

I would have to say that as a regular-ish user of the Cork-Dublin services the MK4, despite all of the talk of ride quality issues and other technical problems, is a massive improvement over what went before it.

From a passenger's perspective here's how it looks:

Pre MK4:

• Tatty, drab carriages.
• No consistency - sometimes it was a MK2 or a random commuter train!
• Weird timetable - it's now "Clock face"
• Bad smell on board - not sure why that was. Kinda a combination of stale beer and fry-ups.
• No management on board, grumpy looking ticket inspectors coming along now and then and gross catering facilities on most trains other than the CityGold coaches.

Post-MK4:

• Modern, bright carriages.
• Consistent service.
• No bad smell on board.
• On-board cleaners.
• Proper announcements and a train manager occasionally showing their face.
• Acceptable catering facilities on board, even if they're overpriced.
• Sensible timetable.
• Train looks a bit "cool" too. The old ones looked terrible!

I actually now feel that I can comfortably use the train to go Dublin-Cork and find it a good alternative to flying.
A few years ago, I'd have been embarrassed to ask a business contact to use it as you'd never know what kind of weird contraption might show up on the platform. Could have been a MK3, might/might not have been cleaned, could have been some relic of a by-gone age with steam blowing out the sides and a strong smell of mildew inside!

Things have improved a lot, but I do think they need to get their act together on customer service / passenger focus on some of the other routes.

KC61

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's all very well in theory but what it would mean in practice would be more delays, speed restrictions and bus substitutions which will drive even more passengers away.

So are you advocating doing nothing?

At the end of the day that may well be necessary as that to my mind is the fundamental problem. While the track is an issue in places it is the formation that is the principal issue.

The job needs to be done properly and an end put to the speed restrictions for the foreseeable future.

Zoney

Solair,

Good to get a positive post providing a sense of perspective. Still, given the advent of the motorway network and the problems that despite your positive list, IÉ/government have not tackled, there remains a *lot* to do! Despite this we are currently in a situation where we may lose some gains rather than make at least some small further progress.

However I think people blaming IÉ are being too narrow-minded. Even if it is entirely IÉ who have created certain problems, it is ultimately the government who are *responsible* even if IÉ are also directly responsible. Just as for example pro-FF media are focussing all the blame for our current troubles on the banks rather than more importantly focussing on who was responsible for regulating them (or rather responsible for the regulator).

The rot needs to be tackled from the top down, not from the bottom up.

murphaph

Transportuser09 wrote: »

You make a good point, there are dysfunctional elements in the company. The Malahide collapse should never ahve been allowed to happen. But over all it functions reasonably well in terms of services delivered to passengers.

I respectfully suggest that you try a rail operator such as DB or SNCB or ÖBB to see what rail operations should be like. IE is a joke...sure the DART destination blinds are wrong half the time..when a rail operator can't even show the correct destination, front AND rear on their trains, there's a problem.

FlameoftheWest

Transportuser09 wrote: »

In fairness though, IÉ did improve service frequency on many of its routes (Cork, Sligo...)

Spending other people's money is the easiest thing in the world.


Being creative with what you have takes talent and you can't buy that with taxpayer's money.


CIE/Irish Rail are pathetic crap when benchmarked against every other rail operator in the Developed World. Deal with it.

FlameoftheWest

murphaph wrote: »

I respectfully suggest that you try a rail operator such as DB or SNCB or ÖBB to see what rail operations should be like. IE is a joke...sure the DART destination blinds are wrong half the time..when a rail operator can't even show the correct destination, front AND rear on their trains, there's a problem.

Last time I was in Connolly I estimated that 80% of the DART destination boards were wrong. Unless Bray is on the northside.

BenShermin

Solair wrote: »

I would have to say that as a regular-ish user of the Cork-Dublin services the MK4, despite all of the talk of ride quality issues and other technical problems, is a massive improvement over what went before it.

From a passenger's perspective here's how it looks:

Let me give you my perspective:

Pre MK4:

• Journey time of 2 hours 25 minutes possible.
• More comfortable seats
• Smoother ride quality
• An announcement made by a human stating correct destinations.
• Excellent afordable quality meals available for both 1st class and standard class passengers on CityGold Services.
• Dirty toilets, but at least they worked.

Post MK4:

• Fastest journey time now 2 hours 45 minutes (faster by road)
• Hard seats in standard class with no comfort
• Bumpy ride
• Annoying automatic announcement, playing more often because there is now more stops on the service.
• Full meals no longer available to standard class customers but I can get a nice can of beer for €6.
• Cleaner toilets that are frequently out of order.

Aidan1

And I'll give you my perspective :

Pre MK4:
Journey time of 2 hours 25 minutes possible, but only on a very limited number of services, and irrelevant in any case because the trains were generally late.
More comfortable seats, which was nice if you had one, but most of the time you'd be standing if travelling at anything close to peak times, so it was largely irrelevant.
Smoother ride quality, which was useful if you were standing
An inaudible announcement made (presumably) by a human stating incoherent rambling.
Excellent afordable quality meals available for both 1st class and standard class passengers on CityGold Services.
Dirty toilets, which generally worked for the first half of a Cork Dublin trip.

Post MK4:
Fasted journey time now 2 hours 45 minutes (faster by road, if you are travelling off peak, and are measuring from the Red Cow to Dunkettle)
Comfortable supportive seats in standard class with far fewer people standing (if ever) due to the more regular services.
Coherent announcements, playing when required
Full meals no longer available to standard class customers, but then again, the trip is less than 3 hours,
Clean toilets, that work for the entire trip.

Seriously, the Cork Dublin Service I travelled on last week is of a completely different standard to the one I used on a weekly basis in the late 90s/early 00s. The service is slick, timely and effective. To fail to recognise this strikes me as a little unusual; more of a determination to hold up the IE=EVIL argument at all costs than a rational analysis of the situation.

Again, this is their premium service, and it should always be this good. In time, it should be faster too. For my money though, the real problems with IE are elsewhere on their network - Dublin commuter services are largely shambolic, and the service, once you step off the Cork-Dublin line fade back into the 70s very quickly.

monument

Hungerford wrote: »

Is that you Barry?

Seriously, did you see my post here? Did you see my post just a bit above agreeing with some of Judgement Day's post? I'm hardly chair-leading Irish Rail, if you think I am you're fairly blinkered.

Hungerford wrote: »

Seriously, the project is wasted at least in the short-term if IE don't introduce the services they had planned for the route. And they told the Tribune that they had scrapped their plans for doing so.

As KC61 said:

I'll say it again - the KRP story is a non-story as it is totally irrelevant until the rolling stock arrives as there is nothing to operate extra trains. The clarification that Ken put up states clearly that new services may be considered when the stock arrives. That is not going to be until December 2011 at the earliest.

The KRP will deliver improvements in reliablility for existing services in the short term with the ability to overtake and also the improved signalling arrangements allow for shorter gaps between trains as far as Kildare.

The "culture of waste" thing was all too much the newspaper trying to find another Fas scandal. The KRP could hardly be described as being apart of this.

dowlingm wrote: »

here you go again monument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Once BK brings a cudgel when his customers simply want him to do his job - like tell them IN ADVANCE when Rosslare services are deferred, as on Saturday, or when extra trains are put on rather than having to know the secret sign that there might be a trip home by rail after a U2 concert.

I agree, the company has communication failures.

Another example I know of is the Westport / Galway joint service. Confusion at Dublin, confusion before the train separates, confusion when the train is separating. The electronic signs don't seem to be able to handle the joint destinations, the audio can't, the manual audio announcements can't be understood any time I've used the service. On the platform in Dublin signs are so small and in small text nobody notices them.

dowlingm wrote: »

Your attempt to rationalise the fact that an out of service set was refurbished and tested on the mainline at Irish taxpayer expense for an event that won't benefit one Irish person (at least none living in Ireland) and which will be patronised by people who fit the description of trainspotter or enthusiast almost to a man (and it will be almost entirely men on that train, I'm betting, going on photos from previous events) will be taken seriously by few.

Hungerford wrote: »

You don't care that IE is spending taxpayer's money doing up a train for a one-shot event when it is cutting services?

How much did it cost?

What I said was: "Most readers and commuters would not care". Again, mention charity even to them, and my guess is few would.

Which is worse, trainspotting or trainspotter spotting? (joke, no need to respond)

dowlingm wrote: »

Your justification for overcrowding neglects the fact that the competing services are not similarly overcrowded, something that was not lost on those who were forced to use them during Broadmeadow and didn't return.

Hungerford wrote: »

The comment about concentration camp trains was a direct quote from a user. And Irish Rail's services are overcrowded. Badly overcrowded due to the lack of proper standards on acceptable crowding levels.

Justification? I said one needs to quantify the problem, which was not doen in the article.

As for Broadmeadow... some people prefer getting a bus where they known they will get a seat and tickets are cheaper? So what?

As for concentration camp, I've already posted on this. It's a selective process, the journalist, subediter, and editor had the choice of including or excluding it. It was even put into a photo caption which is even more selective.

dowlingm wrote: »

Even before you get to overcrowding, IE fail on basic stuff like personal security, the ability to buy fares when and where needed, even stuff like having seat reservations honoured and the correct bloody destination on the front of the train. This is the simple stuff, before you get to whether they could worry more about putting a late Docklands service on from the Point than a UK charity's charter.

How much of this did the article cover?

Again, my aim is not to defend Irish Rail, I'm criticising the article. Although the article is so misguided I end up defending it. It repeatedly used sensationalism, rather than covering issues that affects passengers on a day-to-day and week-to-week bases. It attacks on issues which I'd go as far as saying it is unfair to attack Irish Rail on, while not attacking it on issues that need to be covered.

Why? Maybe because poor service and communication is not sensationalist enough for the Sunday Tribune?

dowlingm wrote: »

Whether Mk3s are modern or not - you give a 3 a decent internal gut and refit on the lines the LRCs are getting in Moncton, I doubt you will find a customer who can tell them from a 4 - except that they might prefer the ride quality. They certainly won't miss the engine noise they'd get in a 22.

Yes, indeed. And give them a lick of paint on the outside in the new livery, few will know they are revamped and not new. Barry might be right saying their surveys say people prefer new trains, but what people are really looking for is clean trains in good condition.

Hungerford wrote: »

It depends on your definition of modern, I suppose. They have automatic doors and meet modern standards [apart from the lack of a PIS]. To put it another way, Barry would be whinging if the Dart wasn't described as modern, even though the carraiges are older than the MK3s.

Again, I'm not Barry.

Calling the Mark 3s modern is misleading.

dowlingm wrote: »

Irish Rail gets 200 million euro from a tax base that just fell off a cliff - about 40% of their income. It's time for them to do better - starting with the Information Minister. It's time for him to stop blaming his critics and start demanding that his co-workers stop making him defend the indefensible.

To be fair to Barry Kenny, he does his job quite well. That's exactly what annoys people here. A large part of his job is to make the company look better.

That's why I'm annoyed with the article. It uses sensationalism which he can dismiss easily.

Hungerford wrote: »

I thought the mention in the article was fine. It was a factual statement of the situation on that line.

The issue needs to be looked at, but the time for that is when details from the pending court cases are made public.

Hungerford wrote: »

I suppose what I find funny is that we've been calling out for a decent IE expose for years and when one appears, we start complaining that its overly simplistic or doesn't cover anything.

These things though are written for a general audience in mind not people like us. The man on the street would view the KRP as a waste if none of the extra services arrive. He doesn't care about the strategic long-term value. He wants more options to get from A to B in comfort.

And people here who should know more about the project should have a more reasoned view on it.

You can't criticise Irish Rail etc for no forward planning and then scream from the high ground when that forward planning is happening.

KC61

monument wrote: »

The issue needs to be looked at, but the time for that is when details from the pending court cases are made public.

If you are seriously suggesting that we cannot discuss any of the speed restrictions on the railway and the effect that they are having on services because of a court case then you are losing the plot.

They are a legitimate subject to discuss as they are causing serious issues across the network - the numerous restrictions on Dublin/Cork, the 25mph restriction between Killonan Junction and Birdhill, and 35mph onto Ballybrophy.

There are issues within the court case, but to say that we cannot discuss the impact on services of the restrictions is plain daft. The article was quite factual in this regard.

dowlingm

monument - without using a search engine or otherwise cheating, can you name the PR guy for DB and BE? I know I can't. BK "does his job well" (and I dispute that, he comes off as a bully to me) because he has had far too much practice for the wrong reasons.

By the way I am not Ken G - I don't have to limit my criticisms to what was in the Tribune article, which served as a catalyst for wider discussion. Also, while modern does have a certain implication, it is not a synonym of "new" - see "modern art", for instance. Compared to a 50 year old Budd car you could ride on this side of the Atlantic, or a New Zealand Mk2, the Mk3 is pretty modern because we benchmark it on stuff like aircon, autodoors and so on.

As for the discussion upthread, the only difference that the 3/4 swap made was in facilitating faster turnarounds by introducing push-pull operation and thereby clockfacing. That option would have been available with the 3s if IE had wired them (or airconned/long haul seating/PIS configed the existing PP carriages), and stuck a CAF DVGT on the end to replace the generator van/original PP DVTs. These sets could have served Limerick or Kerry as I suggested on another thread could be done with the Enterprise DD sets.

I've been on the 4s and they are not bad at all, but let's not make out that onboard cleaners and catering were equipment dependent, nor the decay in timetabled speeds. Solair is right that the former service did not have proper spare capacity, but there is nothing technically stopping IE from subbing in a 29K for a downed Mk4 if that's all they had on hand, is there?

3 22K sets down and the sets they replaced are scrapped or sent to hotels anyway. Graft in the yards. Antagonising the workers by last minute publishing of rosters. Opening Midleton without completing the signalling. 201s rusting in storage. Broadmeadow. Empty trains to AND from Rosslare. Secret trains lest people actually use them. Alstom DARTs. CWR on lines they now want to close. How many more mistakes are we going to let the IE Board and upper management make?