How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

parker kent

In Germany the fan is king. The Bundesliga has the lowest ticket prices and the highest average attendance of Europe's five major leagues. At Borussia Dortmund their giant stand holds 26,000 and costs little more than £10 for admission. Clubs limit the number of season tickets to ensure everyone has a chance to see the games, and the away team has the right to 10% of the available capacity. Match tickets double as free rail passes with supporters travelling in a relaxed atmosphere in which they can sing, drink beer to wash down their sausages, and are generally treated as desirables: a philosophy English fans can only dream of.

The Bundesliga may be Europe's only fit and proper football league – the sole major domestic competition whose clubs collectively make a profit – yet no German team has won the Champions League for nine years. This success rate, though, could be about to change following Bayern Munich's advance to the semi-finals, following their thrilling disposal of Manchester United last week at Old Trafford.

"The Bundesliga as a brand, a competition, is in good shape. We have a very, very interesting competition, a stable and sustainable business model that relies on three revenue sources," the Bundesliga chief executive, Christian Seifert, tells Observer Sport. A holy trinity comprising match-day revenue (€424m), sponsorship receipts (€573m) and broadcast income (€594m) is the main contributor to the Bundesliga's €1.7bn turnover.

A glance at the continent's other major leagues confirms the state the sport is in. On these shores Portsmouth dice with extinction, while Manchester United and Liverpool build mammoth debt mountains. In Spain, where debts are just as high, La Liga players may strike because of unpaid wages in the lower divisions. The stadiums of Italy are half-filled, and in France their clubs spend more of their income (71%) on players' wages than those of any country.

Seifert says the success of the Bundesliga is because of the "core value" of the supporter coming first at its clubs. This is why tickets are kept so cheap. "Because the clubs don't ask for more money," he explains. "It is not in the clubs' culture so much [to raise prices]. They are very fan orientated. The Bundesliga has €350m less per season than the Premier League in matchday revenues. But you could not from one day to another triple prices.

"Borussia Dortmund has the biggest stand in the world. The Yellow Wall holds 26,000, and the average ticket price is €15 (£13) because they know how valuable such a fan culture and supporter base is.

"We have a very interesting situation. First, tickets are cheap. Second, many clubs limit the percentage of season tickets. For instance, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke 04, Hamburg, Bayern Munich. They want to give more fans the chance to watch games live. If you have 80%, 100% then it is all the same people in the stadium. Also in Germany the guest club has the right to 10% of the tickets for its fans."

Last season La Liga attracted an average of 28,478 fans, Ligue 1 21,034, Serie A 25,304 and the Premier League 35,592. These figures are dwarfed by the Bundesliga's average of 41,904. Its soaring attendances are matched by a balanced approach to salaries. "The crucial thing in last year's €1.7bn turnover and €30m profit was that Bundesliga clubs paid less than 50% of revenue in players wages," Seifert says. This is the continent's lowest. In 2007‑08 [the most recent available year] the Premier League paid out 62%.

All this prudent financial management is achieved despite the Bundesliga's television income being a modest €594m compared with the Premier League's lucrative return of €1.94bn. Seifert explains the disparity. "The TV market in Germany is very special. When pay-TV was introduced in 1991 the average household already received 34 channels for free. Therefore we had the most competitive free TV market in the world, so this influenced the growth of pay-TV very much. We were forced to show all of the 612 games of the Bundesliga and second Bundesliga live on pay-TV. So we have to carry the production costs of this."

No Bundesliga team has won the Champions League since Bayern Munich beat Valencia in 2001 and its last finalist was Bayer Leverkusen, eight years ago. But Seifert disputes whether the small return from television rights has been a defining factor in this record. "Money-wise, Bayern Munich is ranked in the first four clubs of Europe. And bear in mind even Chelsea, which spent a hell of a lot of money in the last years, didn't win it. Sometimes you could have the feeling that the ability to win the Champions League goes in line with your willingness to burn a hell of a lot of money. For that reason I think Uefa is on very good track with their financial fair play idea."

Deloitte's accountancy figures for the 2007-08 season show all but one Premier League club (Aston Villa) to be in debt. Compare this with the Bundesliga report for last season, which offers a markedly disappointed tone when recording that "only 11 of the 18 clubs are now in the black".

Pressed further on the lack of success in Europe's premier club competition Seifert argues for sport's cyclical nature. "At the end of the 1990s the Bundesliga was the strongest in Europe. In 1997 we had won the Champions League [Borussia Dortmund] and the Uefa Cup [Schalke]," he says.

"Then in 1999, 2001 and 2002 we were in the final at least. In those days the Premier League had more money, too. It depends not only on money but the quality you have – if it only depended on money then Porto wouldn't have played Monaco in the 2004 final."

Seifert also points to German football's success in producing its own players. This is borne out by Germany being European champions at under-17, under-19, and under-21 level. "The Bundesliga and German FA made a right decision 10 years ago when they decided that to obtain a licence to play you must run an education camp [academy]. The Bundesliga and second Bundesliga spend €75m a year on these camps.

"Five thousand players aged 12-18 are educated there, which has now made the number of under-23-year-olds in the Bundesliga 15%. Ten years ago it was 6%. This allows more money to be spent on the players that are bought, and there is a bigger chance to buy better, rather than average, players," Seifert says of a league in which the stellar performers currently include Bayern's Frank Ribéry and Arjen Robben.

"When Bayern played against Manchester United Philipp Lahm, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Holger Badstuber and Thomas Müller were all homegrown," Seifert says. "So yes, it's a cyclical environment and you have to deal with that. Therefore I'd deny that you could really say whether a league is strong or weak just because one club wins or does not win the Champions League."

Seifert's view is supported by Arsenal having followed United out of the competition last week, when Arsène Wenger's team were dismantled by Barcelona, to leave no Premier League presence in the semi-finals for the first time since 2003. And for the 2012-13 season Germany should have four places in the Champions League as by then they should have overtaken Serie A in Uefa's five-year coefficients.

Seifert also has Spain in his sights. "If we consider our financial capabilities and the stability of our business model, then the aim of the Bundesliga in the long run has got to be second place behind the Premier League," he says.

Of all the Bundesliga's regulations, the recent history of English football suggests it might have benefited most from the 50+1 rule. This states that members of a club must retain at least 51% ownership, so preventing any single entity taking control. Portsmouth are the most glaring example of how an outsider might potentially ruin a club – their administrator is currently searching for their fifth owner of this season – and the Bundesliga recently reiterated the commitment to the rule following a challenge from Hannover 96.

Martin Kind, Hannover's president, wished to change the regulation. He told Observer Sport: "The rule means the loss of many Bundesliga clubs' ability to compete nationally and internationally. And in some ways it prevents further development of German football, especially those clubs who play in the lower half of the Bundesliga as they do not have enough financial resources. The ownership rule should be abandoned or modified."

While Kind adds that his lawyers believe he has a "good chance" of winning the case when it is heard at the court of arbitration for sport this year, Seifert is proud that when the 36 clubs that comprise the Bundesliga's two divisions voted on the issue "35 were against".

There are exceptions to the 50+1 rule. Yet even these appear couched in common sense. Seifert again: "Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg [whom Fulham knocked out of the Europa Cup on Thursday] are two. If a company is supporting football in a club for more than 20 years then it can acquire the majority. The idea is that a company has by then proved to fans and the league that they take their engagement in the Bundesliga seriously, that it's not just a fancy toy or part-time cash injection that [could] change from one day to another."

What the Bundesliga does allow to be transformed from one season to the next is the prospect of any and all its clubs mounting a realistic tilt at the title as Wolfsburg's triumph, the first in their 64-year history, proved last season.

"In the last three years of the Bundesliga we have three different cup winners and three different champions," Seifert says. "Sepp Herberger, the coach of the West German team that won the 1954 World Cup, said: 'You know why people go to the stadium? Because they don't know how it ends.'"

A really good article on German football. I've read a few similar articles in the past few years and for footballs sake, I hope German teams start to consistently do well in club football. It is a bit of a cliche to say it, but clubs in England, Italy and some in Spain seem to have forgotten why football was invented. It is a game to entertain people, NOT a business.

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

3hn2givr7mx1sc

That is shít long.
I got as far as the beer and sausages part. Fans are treated pretty shít in England, tbf, not even allowed to stand like.

Ush1

Typical Germans. There, its said.

Le King

Interesting article

Daysha

I absolutely agree with the 10% of the stadiums capacity given to away supporters. Some of the best days in Old Trafford in terms of atmosphere have been FA Cup matches when travelling fans are entitled to up to 8,000 seats. Those are the real PL fans, the people that travel the length and breadth of the country to follow their team, and the more of those type of fans in the stadiums the better.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Ush1 wrote: »

Typical Germans. There, its said.

Don't mention the war.;)

baz2009

baz2009 wrote: »

Fans are treated pretty shít in England, tbf, not even allowed to stand like.

For good reason my friend

loveissucide

Their fan organisation is a testament to what can be acheived, and really puts the English fans to shame.

OPENROAD

baz2009 wrote: »

. Fans are treated pretty shít in England, tbf, .

Are they?

RandolphEsq

Pity about the quality of the football. Teams can win the league and come no where the following year

parker kent

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Pity about the quality of the football. Teams can win the league and come no where the following year

Is that really a pity? Is it better to know in advance who the top 6 teams are going to be?

Edit: Plus the league seems to be on the up, similar to the Premiership at the turn of the century

loveissucide

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Pity about the quality of the football. Teams can win the league and come no where the following year

It's a different mentality.Admittedly the money to bring in first rate South American and African talent isn't always there, but the constant end to end nature of the Bundesliga can be great to watch.

x in the city

fools and their money easy part

man u and chelsea can ask for 4,000 pounds or whatever they charge for tickets cos they know they will get it....

Germany is a much better place for fans to enjoy games....




*as long as you dont mention the war

RandolphEsq

x in the city wrote: »

*as long as you dont mention the war

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it . . . and I don't agree with that in the workplace!

Mikeyt086

I was in Cologne last year and spontaniously decided to go to FC Koln vs Hannover 96 which was on and I was free. As both are mediocre teams in terms of league position i was expecting a crap game, but honestly it was one of the best matches in terms of atmosphere and enjoyment ive ever been to.

Key point, a group of the Koln fans found out i was Irish and so they treated me like a special guest, bought me beers and said things like "Robbie Keane!"... Outrageous hospitality.

Loved it. Have been following the Bundesliga much closer since.

Boskowski

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Pity about the quality of the football. Teams can win the league and come no where the following year

Whats with the quality of the football?
Are you actually regularly watching Bundesliga football or are you just repeating what Eamon says who's not watching German football either.

On your point about a team winning the title being crap next year...
How is that alone an indicator of poor football anyway? Have you never seen a team having an outstanding season unable to repeat the same next year? Especially when for example in Wolfsburgs case the manager gets snatched up by Schalke.
Not so long ago Kaiserslautern won the title in their first year after a relegation/promotion rollercoaster. Again fuelled by a charismatic manager who by the way went on to make Greece European champions.
I prefer a league where it's not so predictable and about money. Where a team like Wolfsburg for example could just go nuts and win the title. In England it's a big thing if someone else comes home in fourth spot. How is that better?

tricky D

Yellow Wall... been there, pissed, borrowed the tee-shirt and scarf from our excellent hosts. Great transport to and from the stadium (tram included in ticket @ €15). Fantastic atmosphere, really friendly, couldn't recommend it more. Love the way the fans shout the surname.

(edit) It was also a proper terrace - none of this sitting nonsense.

GLaDOS

Some of the most entertaining games around are relegation scraps between supposedly poor teams. Skill does not necessarily equal entertainment, theres enough tentative top 4 clashes to prove that.

Boskowski

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Some of the most entertaining games around are relegation scraps between supposedly poor teams. Skill does not necessarily equal entertainment, theres enough tentative top 4 clashes to prove that.

I agree.
Also football is so unpredictable. Last weeks clash between Schalke and Bayern was so nervous the first twenty mins. They were only hoofing it around and I was wondering am I watching a 3rd division match

Oat23

Love the Bundesliga. I've been watching regularly since 2004 when I went to Hamburg and ended up at a Hamburg game. Fantastic atmosphere and It was like nothing I had experienced at a football match before.

My friends think its silly that I go over to Hamburg for HSV games a few times a season (going to the Mainz game Saturday actually ) when I could jump on a €49 flight to Manchester and watch ''better quality football''.

Oh did I have a good night on Wednesday .

starbelgrade

I cannot deny that the Bundesliga sounds like a great big bag of fun & works as efficiently as a German... ehm, well, anything German, really, but I'm not about to stop supporting my beloved Man U anytime soon & shackle up with.. ehm FC Schalke.

But fair play to them. You can't fault the Germans.


Apart from the war maybe.

Boskowski

Bundesliga is just different to EPL. Like the article says gates are much cheaper and most importantly they are available. And yet average attendance is unrivalled. Also Germans would no way spend twenty thirty quid or more on footie pay-tv every month. Hence less spending power in the league. But our players are the kids idols like everywhere else and they are on very good money. Just not insane money. Also there is in general not as much of a celebrity obsession in Germany. The concept of WAGS for example s unknown thank god.

starbelgrade

Boskowski wrote: »

The concept of WAGS for example s unknown thank god.

In Germany, they call them VAGS.

Boskowski

starbelgrade wrote: »

In Germany, they call them VAGS.

???

Spiritoftheseventies

Boskowski wrote: »

???

That would the Germans pronouncing their W's as V's

jester77

Boskowski wrote: »

The concept of WAGS for example s unknown thank god.

Oh, there are some. Van der Varts wife springs to mind when he was playing for HSV.

Bundesliga may not have the quality of the Premier League, but I think if you took away the top 4 teams in the Premier League, there wouldn't be too much difference. The atmosphere here for the games is amazing, the fans generally mix good (some exceptions) and there is great banter on match day. I remember the Premier League saying showing games live would kill attendances, but the Bundesliga has proved that wrong. All the games are live here, the satellite package was good value (until Sky came in this year and force you to buy the entertainment package before you can get the bundesliga package :mad:) and all the pubs have the games on. The stadiums are still full, and that comes down to the ticket prices, it's very family oriented here and getting to/from games is so easy. If UEFA bring in strict financial controls then you could see the Bundesliga becoming one of the strongest leagues in Europe.

St. Pauli-Augsburg tonight... a win for St. Pauli and they should be favorites for promotion to the Bundesliga

Spiritoftheseventies

I remember the German league being very strong in late seventies and early eighties. You had Borrusia Munchen Gladbach, Hamburg, and Bayern Munich and Borrusia Dortmund.
While Munich are in this years champions league semi I wouldnt give them much of a chance against Barcelona but good to see the league being represented nonetheless in the two clubs competitions

inforfun

A league where you can have Wolfgang Wolf managing Wolfsburg.....

Warper

The most of the big clubs in England are now all about business. They sold their soul once they floated on the SE. The owners of Man Utd, Liverpool etc. couldn't give a toss about the fans and would sell the club in a heartbeat if they got a decent offer. That is the reality. The fans don't have any input into the club whatsoever - they are now supporting a brand.

Warper

inforfun wrote: »

A league where you can have Wolfgang Wolf managing Wolfsburg.....

I had to google that just to see if it was true - that is absolutely fcuking hilarious.

inforfun

Warper wrote: »

I had to google that just to see if it was true - that is absolutely fcuking hilarious.

Hey, i know my fair share of useless football facts

RandolphEsq

Boskowski wrote: »

Whats with the quality of the football?
Are you actually regularly watching Bundesliga football or are you just repeating what Eamon says who's not watching German football either.

On your point about a team winning the title being crap next year...
How is that alone an indicator of poor football anyway? Have you never seen a team having an outstanding season unable to repeat the same next year? Especially when for example in Wolfsburgs case the manager gets snatched up by Schalke.
Not so long ago Kaiserslautern won the title in their first year after a relegation/promotion rollercoaster. Again fuelled by a charismatic manager who by the way went on to make Greece European champions.
I prefer a league where it's not so predictable and about money. Where a team like Wolfsburg for example could just go nuts and win the title. In England it's a big thing if someone else comes home in fourth spot. How is that better?

That's a typically socialist mentality which I do not ascribe to. Success = money = more success = more money = more success etc.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

rarnes1 wrote: »

For good reason my friend

Good point. I agree with the abolishment of terraces, even though they were part and parcel of football, but just for pure safety reasons.

But nowadays stadiums like OT would be well able for people standing in the seating areas, but any game I've been at I've seen people being told to sit down. Sometimes I think the stewards and security would rather the stadium be like a library, tbh.

projectmayhem

Boskowski wrote: »

Not so long ago Kaiserslautern won the title in their first year after a relegation/promotion rollercoaster. Again fuelled by a charismatic manager who by the way went on to make Greece European champions.
I prefer a league where it's not so predictable and about money. Where a team like Wolfsburg for example could just go nuts and win the title. In England it's a big thing if someone else comes home in fourth spot. How is that better?

I always point to Borrussia Monchengladbach as an example of a small team that believed they could do great things without having to spend billions on various players and a new stadium. They're still a decent outfit, doing a good job with what they have at their disposal. Much more impressive then low-end EPL teams.

Boskowski wrote: »

Also there is in general not as much of a celebrity obsession in Germany. The concept of WAGS for example s unknown thank god.

WAGS as tabloid fodder is unknown but some of the WAGS are stunning. I will give everyone this opportunity to head to google and search for Bastian Schweinsteigers' ladyfriend, Sarah Brandner!

RandolphEsq wrote: »

That's a typically socialist mentality which I do not ascribe to. Success = money = more success = more money = more success etc.

Which is all well and good until it stops being success for the team and fans, and starts being success and money for the people at the very top. Case in point: United. Them reaching the top of the EPL and getting to the quarters in the CL would normally bring money to invest in the team and potentially plug holes with players in the squad. But no, in United's case, it just plugs holes in the bank account of Glazier.

adamski8

starbelgrade wrote: »

I cannot deny that the Bundesliga sounds like a great big bag of fun & works as efficiently as a German... ehm, well, anything German, really, but I'm not about to stop supporting my beloved Man U anytime soon & shackle up with.. ehm FC Schalke.

But fair play to them. You can't fault the Germans.


Apart from the war maybe.

Yeah cause supporting a team from another country would be ridiculus!

keane2097

Great article.

I'd love to see German clubs doing well after reading it tbh.

Show the rest of them how it should be done.

inforfun

projectmayhem wrote: »

Which is all well and good until it stops being success for the team and fans, and starts being success and money for the people at the very top. Case in point: United. Them reaching the top of the EPL and getting to the quarters in the CL would normally bring money to invest in the team and potentially plug holes with players in the squad. But no, in United's case, it just plugs holes in the bank account of Glazier.

True.
Bayern announced already that the unexpected extra money from the CL will be invested in the team. We are talking about €50 million so far.
First of all by trying to get Ribery sign a new contract. They already gave him a pen for his birthday last week....

Much more respect for clubs that actually earn their money that they spent than the ones that have sugardaddy pay for them.

Boskowski

RandolphEsq wrote: »

That's a typically socialist mentality which I do not ascribe to. Success = money = more success = more money = more success etc.

I don't agree with your statement. I didn't say I prefer a league where profits are shared and no one is allowed to make money. I have no problem with some clubs being more successful than others. However no team can be successful on their own the league needs to function as a whole. I think the bundesliga functions better as a whole than the epl.

Oat23

jester77 wrote: »

St. Pauli-Augsburg tonight... a win for St. Pauli and they should be favorites for promotion to the Bundesliga

Will be fantastic if they do it.

HSV v St Pauli will be fun.

projectmayhem

inforfun wrote: »

True.
Bayern announced already that the unexpected extra money from the CL will be invested in the team. We are talking about €50 million so far.
First of all by trying to get Ribery sign a new contract. They already gave him a pen for his birthday last week....

I think the Ribery thing will be solved fairly soon. If he wants to go, then fine. The team have a deal in place to swap him for Bojan and some cash from Barcelona. This deal is attractive to Ribery for obvious reasons and works for Bayern as we need big name strikers. A fine example as to how well run German clubs are... they have their arses covered. Though since progressing into the semi's in the CL and staying top of the Bundesliga, I think Ribery is more likely to stick around. Especially now he has a new buddy in Robben, and he likes that Bayern II has one or two French players around looking to be promoted (Alaba, for example, who played during the Fiorentina first leg if memory serves me correct...)

As for the extra cash (and keep in mind Bayern were doing well with money beforehand anyway) it'll probably get used to bring in a good solid central defender, or left-back. We get Breno back from loan. Midfield we get Kroos back from Leverkusen, again who was on loan. Both of those players have done incredibly well while away from the hype and pressure of Bayern and are ready to come back to kick some ass in 2010/11. I can see a large chunk of that extra cash being used to bring in a goalie like Neuer (who United were after, but I think the price is probably too high) or Adler.

inforfun wrote: »

Much more respect for clubs that actually earn their money that they spent than the ones that have sugardaddy pay for them.

I can't think of a recent example of a major club in leagues other then England that have had that sugardaddy experience. Especially a sugardaddy experience that worked. Chelsea looked well at the start of their new found cash injection, but they really haven't brought in the billions or even the silverware. In any other situation (i.e. without a Russian oil tycoon's bank account), that club would be in dire straights financially.

parker kent

projectmayhem wrote: »

Which is all well and good until it stops being success for the team and fans, and starts being success and money for the people at the very top. Case in point: United. Them reaching the top of the EPL and getting to the quarters in the CL would normally bring money to invest in the team and potentially plug holes with players in the squad. But no, in United's case, it just plugs holes in the bank account of Glazier.

Yeah really true, Bayern Munich are a good example of a team in Germany using money to feed future success. There's nothing wrong with a successful team making money and improving their team. Their is however, a lot wrong with a club making money it paying off Americans' loans.

pickarooney

projectmayhem wrote: »

I can't think of a recent example of a major club in leagues other then England that have had that sugardaddy experience.

Real? Lyon? Milan?

inforfun

Real financed its transfers last season with loans as far as i know.
Lyon has been rather succesfull with their transfers and CL money over the years.
Not exactly the same as what Abramovic is doing at Chelsea or the sheiks at Man City and other examples.

parker kent

projectmayhem wrote: »

I can't think of a recent example of a major club in leagues other then England that have had that sugardaddy experience. Especially a sugardaddy experience that worked. Chelsea looked well at the start of their new found cash injection, but they really haven't brought in the billions or even the silverware. In any other situation (i.e. without a Russian oil tycoon's bank account), that club would be in dire straights financially.

A lot of Russian clubs are like that, the sudden rise in Brazilians playing there highlights that. Plus the sugar daddy issue is not a million miles from clubs spending money that they don't have through loans etc. Real Madrid were saved around the turn of the century too by a sugar daddy, just their sugar daddy is the Spanish government!

OPENROAD

inforfun wrote: »

Much more respect for clubs that actually earn their money that they spent than the ones that have sugardaddy pay for them.

Arsenal ?

OPENROAD

baz2009 wrote: »

Good point. I agree with the abolishment of terraces, even though they were part and parcel of football, but just for pure safety reasons.

But nowadays stadiums like OT would be well able for people standing in the seating areas, but any game I've been at I've seen people being told to sit down. Sometimes I think the stewards and security would rather the stadium be like a library, tbh.

Stewards tend to turn a blind eye to occasional standing in my expereince especially when the action is in the penalty area, it is only if it is persistent that they tend to step in which as far as I know by law they have to.

leninbenjamin

projectmayhem wrote: »

I can't think of a recent example of a major club in leagues other then England that have had that sugardaddy experience.

Plenty of it in Italy, in recent years you've had Moratti, Cragnotti and Berlesconi. In Spain the clubs have been lucky because the banks don't want negative publicity of calling in the debt, hence Real Madrid and Barca are allowed to continually refinance. So despite the whole 'membership' thing it's pretty much the same thing because the president is then free to spend like there's no tomorrow. Then in Scotland you have Desmond who was bankrolling things for a while... Heck it even goes on in South America, for example Corinthians had/have(?) that really funky deal where Joorabchian bankrolls them.

Sugardaddy's are nothing new. The thing is the publicity, exposure and wealth of the premier league has attracted a new type of sugardaddy, but ultimately the notion of buying success has existed as long as football clubs have been privately owned.

inforfun

OPENROAD wrote: »

Arsenal ?

Definitely my favourite team in the premier league.
Not just for the way they play the game but also for the way they do their business.

Paparazzo

If I was going to live in a country based purely on the experience of going to football matches, it would be germany. (Germany, germany above all you might say) Beer in the stadiums is also is special plastic cups with stackable handles, so you can carry 5 in each hand easily.

adamski8 wrote: »

Yeah cause supporting a team from another country would be ridiculus!

I laughed!

starbelgrade

inforfun wrote: »

A league where you can have Wolfgang Wolf managing Wolfsburg.....

Well, in England, a guy called Arsene manages Arsenal.

starbelgrade

Originally Posted by starbelgrade
I cannot deny that the Bundesliga sounds like a great big bag of fun & works as efficiently as a German... ehm, well, anything German, really, but I'm not about to stop supporting my beloved Man U anytime soon & shackle up with.. ehm FC Schalke.

But fair play to them. You can't fault the Germans.


Apart from the war maybe.

adamski8 wrote: »

Yeah cause supporting a team from another country would be ridiculus!

I was born in Manchester, so despite the thanks whoring, your post = fail.