Motorists encouraged to buy electric

loyatemu

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This "Quickdrop" is what Ryan is announcing today, it is pure bollox. They weight a ton FFS and require a contraption UNDER the car for removal and insertion Look at this video, and LAUGH!!!!

big deal - so you need a specially built station to swap the batteries. How does that differ from a petrol station, which has extensive underground tanks and pumps in order to deal with a highly flammable liquid that is trasported in large tankers?

The main problem I would see is that there would need to be standardisation on the batteries, but the concept of battery swap is not in itself ludicrous.

Sponge Bob

loyatemu wrote: »

The main problem I would see is that there would need to be standardisation on the batteries, but the concept of battery swap is not in itself ludicrous.

We are not going to get standardisation save in FORM..which would be a great help for swapping garages.

As for the composition of the battery ...which needs to be recycled....there are about 200 different recipes for a lithium battery, all of which need to be recycled differently and perhaps 3 - 4 times over the lifetime of the car itself.

The car industry had better settle on 5 or 6 recipes to get to scale as well as a standard form in which to encapsulate them.

The ESB actually told us in February that there would be 29 fast chargers nationwide, Ryan got that up to 30 which is well worth a pixebollix session with the meeja when you are green. Our press are generally too thick to notice he announced the 1500 charge points only last month.

Fast Charger Number 30 is probably the fast charger that the ESB were never originally going to install in Dublin ...at least not 2 months ago

JHMEG

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We are not going to get standardisation save in FORM..which would be a great help for swapping garages.

The form, ie phyisical properties, are all that are required. It's irrelevant what the battery chemistry is.

cianof

Manufacturers will be handling the recycling of the batteries they produce.
End of life batteries have a material value.

Having a standard for battery chemistry would force batteries to be the same. That's not going to happen.

Over time market forces will dictate that batteries will improve in capacity, life cycle charge count, speed of charge and lifespan.

Motor journos are going to have to do some homework to keep up. The articles I've read in press so far about EVs have been very light on technical details.

Sponge Bob

cianof wrote: »

Over time market forces will dictate that batteries will improve in capacity, life cycle charge count, speed of charge and lifespan.

That is technology , market forces will merely dictate the ADOPTION of that technology.

We have around 200 different Lithium based recipes ( technologies) usable in batteries and the market will select relatively few of them for very large scale production. The other 180 will wither away, unloved.

Recycling will be developed for the 20, not for the 200.

Only 5 or 6 of the 20 will be used in cars.

astrofool

Battery technology will keep on evolving, we may end up going the way of supercapacitors, the beauty of the electric car is that any source of electricity can power it, so rolling battery upgrades would be possible (or even fuel cells).

Charging a car via coal power station is much much much less polluting than burning petrol in an ICE. Power plants are much more efficient, and this is without considering renewable sources of power (wind/solar/wave/geothermal).

The battery packs have a cooling system, this keeps their ambient temperature at the correct level, so environmental factors should not have a large effect on charging.

Most urbanites could happily use an electric car 99% of the time without any range issues, this reduces pollution and fossil fuel dependence drastically.

ESB is rolling out 30 fast charger points, look up what it means.

Given time, most car parking spaces will have an elec car hookup, so there won't be any problem looking for charge points. This obviously will take years to happen, just as the roll out (see I use it again) of say, electricity to the country, of petrol service stations or television.

I can see most regular service stations installing a number of fast charge points. Charging time will go down as the battery technology improves, allowing them to intake more power/time.

Sponge Bob

astrofool wrote: »

B

ESB is rolling out 30 fast charger points, look up what it means.

I provided a map. I know what it means.

I can see most regular service stations installing a number of fast charge points. Charging time will go down as the battery technology improves, allowing them to intake more power/time.

Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

gpjordanf1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I provided a map. I know what it means.



Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

have you a link to the map or where the locations are please?

Thanks

Sponge Bob

No, at ESB transformer stations from the look of it.

astrofool

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I provided a map. I know what it means.

so why are you highlighting it as a problem? They're rolling out 30, there will be more after the initial 30, but 30 will allow people to traverse the country, which is a decent start. The ESB have a vested interest in EV, they will bend over backwards to get charging points in place.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

Do manufacturers have specific nozzles required for petrol? No? Why would they go non standard for EV? At worst, the first couple of plug in models might be non standard, but it will be standardised after that, and they will be made backwards compatible if needed.

I also doubt it would be a hard job to change the socket on a car, that's the beauty of electricity.

amacachi

I think this is great, while I agree the technology isn't there yet it's good we're finally getting some forward planning in this country. Electric cars are the way of the future, even if they're powered by fossil fuels it's much more efficient than burning oil in a car and will give us some more energy independence. As well as this it's obvious that electric cars are going to develop over the next couple of decades and will be able to displace traditionally powered cars in terms of practicality and eventually cost.
Personally I'd like to see the country covered in wind turbines and the seas full of wave generators, finally start catching up in renewables.

flynnlives

Seems they forgot to mention you have to "rent" the battery!
1200euro per year!


I give you your Battery rental tax!

gpjordanf1

flynnlives wrote: »

Seems they forgot to mention you have to "rent" the battery!
1200euro per year!


I give you your Battery rental tax!

Have you a link for this? Jeesh?

flynnlives

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drivers-of-electric-vehicles-must-pay-83641200-annual-fee-for-battery-rental-2114108.html

the_syco

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I said these stations will cater for all chargable cars, that will be their business model & plan, they will hardly say "Sorry we only do Renault Bud" , these will be computer controlled charging points with all necessary adaptors & fitting required to make a buck!

I can't see people putting every charger under the sun in a charger station. I can see Renault having a clause in their contract that they stations will only be for "their" cars...

cianof

GLWT Renault...

Monthly battery rental won't catch one. Nissan and other car makers have copped on to this and are selling the batteries with the vehicle.

I think Renault will back down on this plan.

I would be happy to pay a deposit on a battery, refundable when the battery is returned/exchanged.

I wouldn't like to deal with a yearly/monthly battery rental scheme.

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Fast Charger Number 30 is probably the fast charger that the ESB were never originally going to install in Dublin ...at least not 2 months ago

I'd like to know where you got that map. The N18 has technically zero charging points there. Surely having one installed at the airports would be ideal too? Gah theyre missing a few points really should be locating them on the commuter routes if they really want to see this kicking off.

For Limerick alone there is none on the N21/N18 and N24 near Limerick Locate one each at Newcastle West, Shannon and Ennis FFS. For Cork there is none at Mallow on the N20 seriously bad selection. For Galway there is none at Tuam, who the hell is picking these locations??

Live Drive

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The current generation of electric cars cannot make it to Galway and back to Dublin on a charge

The Opel Ampera is an interesting solution to that problem in the short term. A range of 60km on the battery and then the engine kicks in but rather than running the wheels it charges the battery so the fuel consumption is very low. It has a range of 500km on one tank. Out next year.

Sponge Bob

Live Drive wrote: »

The Opel Ampera is an interesting solution to that problem in the short term. A range of 60km on the battery and then the engine kicks in but rather than running the wheels it charges the battery so the fuel consumption is very low. It has a range of 500km on one tank. Out next year.

Bit like a Prius that LiveD, a Hybrid rather than an EV.

I knew Ryan had something slimy up his sleeve as usual, he never mentioned the €23 a week ( plus Vat????) battery rental which is more than half the population spend on petrol every week.

smart green pixiebollix , as expected. Why is everybody asking about the map, do ye not believe that Dublin is getting no Fast Chargers or something ????

Live Drive

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Bit like a Prius that LiveD, a Hybrid rather than an EV.

It'd count for the €5k rebate though wouldn't it? it uses the same charging points too. It's a happy medium for those who need more range until the technology provides long range batteries.

Sponge Bob

Live Drive wrote: »

It'd count for the €5k rebate though wouldn't it? it uses the same charging points too. It's a happy medium for those who need more range until the technology provides long range batteries.

You will use the rebate up after 4 years ( 4 x €1200), I suppose the greens will want you to scrap the car then

Tech3

SpongeBob, thanks for the link. The location of the charging points should be redone and put on commuter areas under 100km as they are nowhere near as reliable as the petrol/diesel car.

cianof

It's only Renault that are considering going with the battery rental model.

JHMEG

And they're only considering it as a means to keep the purchase cost down.

It also has another benefit: If you owned the battery you would have to replace it every time it reaches end-of-life, potentially very costly. I reckon owners of BMW diesels would be happy if they could rent their turbo chargers.

Sponge Bob

I would say end of battery life will be c.3 years, on this generation of EV. About the cost of a 320d turbo every 3 years like JHMEG pointed out.

cianof

I would say end of battery life will be c.3 years

Where did you pull that figure from?

Sorry, but I'd think your talking rubbish there.

Captain Chaos

Batteries are generally only good for 1000 or so charges before they start to degrade and fail to hold a full charge. After 3 years you'd be at that mark easy. As you'd have to charge these every night at least. This should improve as battery technology advances.

_Kaiser_

Hmmm... ok we all know that petrol/diesel is running out so if nothing else, for THAT reason we have to start looking at alternatives (I'll leave out all the tree-huggery arguments)

But this seems like a PR stunt to me... range of 160km?? I'd do that easily most days and having to find somewhere to plug the thing in all the time would rapidly become a right pain (not to mention remembering to plug it in at night).

Then there's the financial side.. are we seriously supposed to believe that THIS government (which has single-handedly manage to flush our economy and potential future down the toilet) is encouraging something that will get them LESS revenue to squander?? Isn't the current tax take per litre of petrol something like 60/70c?

Aside from the high cost of installing this charging point (assuming you can.. as someone else said, what if you live in an apartment, or rent?), are we REALLY meant to believe that they won't recoup the losses somehow?

Also, how reliable are these cars/batteries? Given that manufacturers still haven't perfected conventional cars and the electrics in them, what issues lie ahead with these? Where will you get them serviced? How much more will it cost? (presumably workshops will have to be re-equipped? Who's paying for that?) What'll the resale value be like on something like this?

I think like most new tech, the first generation will be fraught with problems and it'll potentially kill any market before it starts. Of course knowing our country, they'll probably just push the running costs of a conventional car through the roof to "incentivise" the already hard-pressed motorist.

Seems to me that this is yet another example of appearing to deal with a problem, without actually doing something that'll make a real difference - something we excel at in this country!

JHMEG

No pistons, one gear, no turbo or pumps. Sounds like it should be more reliable than your average modern diesel.

cianof

This is the 1st generation...



If you're driving 160km everyday, your probably better sticking to your petrol/diesel/hybrid car. Most motorist don't drive that much.

It doesn't matter too much what the gov do, mainstream EVs are going to happen elsewhere.

astrofool

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I would say end of battery life will be c.3 years, on this generation of EV. About the cost of a 320d turbo every 3 years like JHMEG pointed out.

First generation Prius batteries (1997) are still going strong: http://www.automoblog.net/2008/12/31/dont-worry-about-your-prius-batteries/

You'll have replaced much more parts of a car due to wear and tear before the batteries of current generation EV's is a problem, let alone future generations.

And if you go with something like the Volt/Ampera, the engine doesn't need any gearing system, making it much simpler again, and likely to last much longer than a standard car.

Going to a battery only EV, you have one moving part in the engine.

Electric motors are arguably more advanced than ICE engines as well, they've been around longer, and used in more places, and at lots of different scales. There's no need for a complicated seperate electrical system for the car's electrics either.

It's great, because eventually we'll move to in wheel motors (traction control for free), and in theory, the battery could be swapped for a fuel cell depending on use (long journeys for example). Torque is great, and top end power will keep on going up and up (electric formula 1 in ~10 years?). No large engine to accommodate, and batteries can be any shape, cars could become much more comfortable, and safer (no engine blocks crushing limbs/bodies).

And the best bit, abandonment of the inefficient clutch and gearing sytem, driving without waggling a stick at random times.

SeanW

cianof wrote: »

If you're driving 160km everyday, your probably better sticking to your petrol/diesel/hybrid car. Most motorist don't drive that much.

It doesn't matter too much what the gov do, mainstream EVs are going to happen elsewhere.

Most people might only drive a few km/s every day, but take long drives occasionally. What then?

Davy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That map shows none in dublin, have they not installed two in dublin already?

Sponge Bob

astrofool wrote: »

First generation Prius batteries (1997) are still going strong: http://www.automoblog.net/2008/12/31/dont-worry-about-your-prius-batteries/

Prius batteries are not a good comparison, they are NiMh and are designed to coast a car slowly but not to accelerate it sharply , it was because LiON batteries were too expensive/heavy that Toyota went with the NiMh in their Hybrid.

EVs ...NOT Hybrids...have to do everything on battery and will use LiON formulations most likely. All sorts of promises have been made for nanotube/lithium combinations...and even for A4 paper as I said earlier...but these nanon whatsits are the nextgeneration coming in 5 years time. They should have fast charges and reduced weight. They have been around 4 years already though and nowt!!

The current generation cannot hack it on range and are consigned to be urban cars. Nor am I convinced as to their charge cycles...other than overnight charges.

For now, and unless proven otherwise in real world conditions an EV will do 100km on an overnight charge at home or 100km on a High Amp Fast Charge in very limited locations ( or a battery swap underneath) and that is it.

If you run out of juice in the wrong place make sure you have warm gloves.

Sponge Bob

Davy wrote: »

That map shows none in dublin, have they not installed two in dublin already?

Not fast chargers. There will be 3 kinds and they installed the middlin fast ones , the culchies get the very fast ones ( 20-25 minutes only)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0315/1224266296611.html

He said that there will three different types of charging point. The first will be at home where it is estimated that up to 90 per cent of the recharging will be done, using cheap overnight electricity.
A special seven-pin all-weather socket will need to be installed outside homes. The cost of recharging will be circa €2.50 which is about six times cheaper than petrol or diesel.
The second will be the kerbside juicepoint, which will cost more, but still less than petrol. The third will be a high-speed DC charger that will recharge batteries in 20-25 minutes.

Davy

20 minutes is impressive imho

Sponge Bob

Davy wrote: »

20 minutes is impressive imho

Sure is if you are stuck in Charlestown Dungarvan or Kinnegad which is where they are going The Dubs get the cheaper 2 hour ones in their max 2 hour parking bays.

Davy

It has to start somewhere though, they cant be everywhere overnight

Capt'n Midnight

bk wrote: »

The ironic thing is that if we had a high quality broadband network to every home in Ireland and incentivised companies to let their employees work from home (where possible), starting with the civil servants, we would vastly reduce pollution more then by this sham.

What ever happened to taxing parking as BIK ?

ros.ie is saving the revenue something like €25m a year, and it's not the only government dept, much of the BB could be funded by government savings

Aren't we paying something like a tenner a tonne for CO2 too.

Capt'n Midnight

cianof wrote: »

This is the 1st generation...

And a lot of the current electric cars like the Reva still use Lead Acid batteries.

Capt'n Midnight

astrofool wrote: »

Battery technology will keep on evolving, we may end up going the way of supercapacitors, the beauty of the electric car is that any source of electricity can power it, so rolling battery upgrades would be possible (or even fuel cells).

Charging a car via coal power station is much much much less polluting than burning petrol in an ICE. Power plants are much more efficient, and this is without considering renewable sources of power (wind/solar/wave/geothermal).

The battery packs have a cooling system, this keeps their ambient temperature at the correct level, so environmental factors should not have a large effect on charging.

Most urbanites could happily use an electric car 99% of the time without any range issues, this reduces pollution and fossil fuel dependence drastically.
...

I can see most regular service stations installing a number of fast charge points. Charging time will go down as the battery technology improves, allowing them to intake more power/time.

The only problem with electric cars are the batteries. Most land vehicles over 100 tonnes are electrically powered.

While chemistry has improved a lot in the 150 years since the Lead Acid battery was invented you still need 303.26g of lead sulphate per mol of electrons. ( 96485.3399 F /3600 C = 26.8 Ah)
Six cells in a battery so a ~7KG battery of 26.8 Ah battery would have 1.82Kg of Lead Suphate in it. Allowing for the case and electrolyte and conductors you are never going to more that double the capacity of Lead Acid batteries.

Lightest technology is Lithium Air but still a long way off and the price will go up as demand for Lithium increases.

Super capacitors will allow quicker charging but won't ever compete with the better batteries in capacity.


Ye canna break the laws of physics (or chemistry)

Melodeon

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Ye canna break the laws of physics (or chemistry)

That needs a picture:






On Topic:
I think electric cars are most likely the way of the future, and we have to start somewhere I suppose.
As others have said though, until the between-fill range gets up to something similar to current cars or some sort of on-the-move charging technology becomes feasible, they're going to be restricted to commuter/city use.

Sponge Bob

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Lightest technology is Lithium Air but still a long way off and the price will go up as demand for Lithium increases.

You forgot to mention the Chinese control most of the worlds Rare Earth production as well :eek: and much of the Lithium ...along with Chile Boliva and Argentina.

All of which has a lot to do with EV's

Lithium is a bit more diverse than the Rare earths which are used in the motors.

2005 Production (tonnes) Reserves (tonnes) Reserve Base (tonnes)

United States 1,000 (est.) 38,000 410,000
Argentina 2,000 2,000,000 (est.) 2,000,000 (est.)
Australia 4,000 160,000 260,000
Bolivia - - 5,400,000
Brazil 240 190,000 910,000
Canada 700 180,000 360,000
Chile 8,000 3,000,000 3,000,000
China 2,700 640,000 1,100,000
Portugal 320 NA NA
Russia 2,200 NA NA
Zimbabwe 240 23,000 27,000

TOTAL 21,400 6.2M 13.4M

Have a read

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

Can be charged up on cheap rate electricity overnight

That won't last long! As soon as overnight demand increases to the point that power actually needs to be generated, rather than just keeping power stations operational, then the nightrate will soon dissappear.

The only (im)practical solution to the lack of range of EV's.

Insert a slot in the motorway and run the cars over it!

dowlingm

We could always start planting more sugar beet to power E85 hybrids The Brazilians have a serious ethanol industry off their sugar cane plantations.

KevR

Live Drive wrote: »

The Opel Ampera is an interesting solution to that problem in the short term. A range of 60km on the battery and then the engine kicks in but rather than running the wheels it charges the battery so the fuel consumption is very low. It has a range of 500km on one tank. Out next year.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Bit like a Prius that LiveD, a Hybrid rather than an EV.

I definitely think the Ampera solution could be the way to go for the transition to full electric vehicles.

It's the right idea but 60km on the battery is a bit measly! I presume that's 60km at a steady cruising speed also (90 or 100kmh perhaps?). For example, if you were crawling across Galway (Barna-Oranmore and back again) in start/stop traffic would you find that the battery gets used up and the petrol starts kicking in despite it only being a 31km round trip? Same goes for long trips across the likes of Dublin City in heavy traffic.

Also, assuming these cars are actually capable of 120kmh, would you be able to get the full 60km out of the battery at 120kmh? I doubt the optimal cruising speed is that high...

Right idea but the battery range needs to be something like 150km before the petrol has to kick in. The vast majority of commutes and short/medium journeys would be covered by the battery and long journeys wouldn't be a problem either (500km on a fuel tank which can be refilled in the 'normal' way and there will be some fast charge points around the place also).

astrofool wrote: »

And the best bit, abandonment of the inefficient clutch and gearing sytem, driving without waggling a stick at random times.

Ineffecient in an electric car maybe but aren't manual cars more fuel effecient than automatic cars in petrol/diesel (presuming people drive them properly of course).

I much prefer manual cars. Adds to the enjoyment of driving in my opinion. Wouldn't even consider buying an automatic now and I'd definitely miss the clutch and gear in an electric car.