Orwell/Lucan/Usher/UCD/Tiernans league race 15/4/10 TT

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Not in an open race perhaps, but doable I'd say in the club league, especially in a DMS race.

DMS = Divided Mass Start? How's that work then?

Chips Lovell

dave.obrien wrote: »

My first ever event, came home in 28.44, and given my goal was to be inside 35, I'm pretty happy! Very impressed with the whole event, I'll be at many more.

Well done Dave. Didn't realise you were going to make your debut last night. Best of luck in the league

Lumen wrote: »

DMS = Divided Mass Start? How's that work then?

You'll like it. Instead of one big handicapped race, there are four separate races, one for each category. It's a big chance to pick up points since the first six in all races will get them. Expect it to be far more tactical with lots of breaks etc.

dave.obrien

Actually, a fairly noobie/safety conscious question, but given the carnage that seems to be happening in the early open races this year, how do the league races compare in terms of people taking risks, crashes, etc?

Chips Lovell

dave.obrien wrote: »

Actually, a fairly noobie/safety conscious question, but given the carnage that seems to be happening in the early open races this year, how do the league races compare in terms of people taking risks, crashes, etc?

They are worlds apart. Generally speaking the bunches are much smaller, which means they tend to be a lot more civilised.

dave.obrien

That makes sense, it was also my thinking in signing up for just the league races this year. Well, that and the fact that I really have to get my race legs yet!

Lumen

dave.obrien wrote: »

That makes sense, it was also my thinking in signing up for just the league races this year. Well, that and the fact that I really have to get my race legs yet!

I don't think the A4 races (other than the first couple) have been that bad. In the last one I only had to visit the ditch once, and that was at very low speed.

It is a great way to start the season as it helps focus the mind in Jan/Feb and you can get a fair few open races in your legs before the club racing starts. Maybe something to consider for next year.

dave.obrien

el tonto wrote: »

Well done Dave. Didn't realise you were going to make your debut last night. Best of luck in the league

Also, thank you very much, that was my first taste of cycling for anything other than fun. Interestingly, I had a lot of fun.

dave.obrien

Lumen wrote: »

I don't think the A4 races (other than the first couple) have been that bad. In the last one I only had to visit the ditch once, and that was at very low speed.

It is a great way to start the season as it helps focus the mind in Jan/Feb and you can get a fair few open races in your legs before the club racing starts. Maybe something to consider for next year.

Absolutely, I'd like to do some of them next year, love the idea of the Gorey 3 Day too, BUT for this year, I saw some of the accidents in the A3 races and thought it might be worth just doing the league this year. Recovering from a fractured wrist also put some of the open races and the league pre-season one a little out of reach, but I'm hoping to cut my teeth in group races over the next few weeks. While I can ride comfortably enough in groups, and have decent enough fitness, things like racing tactics, jumps in the pace and all that racing brings is stuff I think I'd be more comfortable learning in the league...

Lumen

dave.obrien wrote: »

Interestingly, I had a lot of fun.

Try harder next time.

dave.obrien

I knew I did something wrong...

blorg

dave.obrien wrote: »

Actually, a fairly noobie/safety conscious question, but given the carnage that seems to be happening in the early open races this year, how do the league races compare in terms of people taking risks, crashes, etc?

As Tonto says the Club League is much safer. A4 is safer than A3 incidentally although I thought the Gorey was far more civilised than the two A3 races I did before it. A2 aparently it becomes an oasis of calm again, maybe it was their influence.

Anyone have power data from the TT? Lumen? Diarmuid?

Diarmuid

blorg wrote: »

Anyone have power data from the TT? Lumen? Diarmuid?

my battery died in the warm up. I generally only have to change it once a year so bad timing

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Anyone have power data from the TT? Lumen? Diarmuid?

Mine's on here.

Chips Lovell

It's amazing the amount of number crunching a TT generates. I just spent half my lunch trying to work out my power output by comparing my time to Lumen's and then using this tool to see how much faster I'd go if I dropped some weight.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

I just spent half my lunch trying to workout my power output by comparing my time to Lumen's and then using this tool to see how much faster I'd go if I dropped some weight.

If you doubled the amount of time you spent doing analysis you wouldn't have time for lunch. Problem solved!

levitronix

el tonto wrote: »

It's amazing the amount of number crunching a TT generates. I just spent half my lunch trying to workout my power output by comparing my time to Lumen's and then using this tool to see how much faster I'd go if I dropped some weight.

that tool looks a bit mad, the difference between aerobars and hoods was almost 6kph that cant be right ??? is it ???

Lumen

levitronix wrote: »

that tool looks a bit mad, the difference between aerobars and hoods was almost 6kph that cant be right ??? is it ???

From my experience it assumes world class positional efficiency.

austinbyrne21

Didn't want to start up a new thread for this question and seeing as this one is about the racing league...

Does anyone know a good website that will list out the format to the leagues, ie., the different clubs, the categories, the locations of the races etc.? It's just that all this talk of A3s and A4s and semi-scratch kind of goes over my head, which isn't hard.

I've checked out the cyclingireland website but their FAQ section under the Road heading isn't exactly full of information.

So I suppose what I'm after is a "Ireland's Road Bike Racing for Dummies" website. Anything out there like that?

Raam

austinbyrne21 wrote: »

So I suppose what I'm after is a "Ireland's Road Bike Racing for Dummies" website. Anything out there like that?

That would be this place, I guess. I hadn't a clue about any of it at the start. Slightly more clued in now.

Beasty

el tonto wrote: »

It's amazing the amount of number crunching a TT generates. I just spent half my lunch trying to work out my power output by comparing my time to Lumen's and then using this tool to see how much faster I'd go if I dropped some weight.

So what was the answer?

(I presume not a lot on flat courses)

Chips Lovell

You're on a hiding to nothing trying to find out something from the Cycling Ireland website.

Basically there are two types of road race. Open races are usually held at weekends and open to all comers. So no matter what club you're in, or even if you aren't a club member, you can enter as long as you have an open competition licence. If you don't have one, you can purchase a day licence at sign on.

There are five categories for riders in open races, A+, A1, A2, A3 and A4. Sometimes everyone will race together, with each category getting a handicap. Sometimes there will be separate races for each category. And sometimes the categories will be split into two races, eg. A1/A2 race and then an A3/A4 race. You can get promoted up categories by earning points from placing in races.

The other main type of race are club races. Clubs will have either their own internal league or be part of an interclub league involving clubs from the area. To race in one of these you often need to be a member of a participating club and have a club competition licence (which is cheaper). Some leagues allow riders from other clubs to participate.

Last night's race was part of a league between Orwell, Lucan, IRC, St Tiernans and UCD. The league also splits riders into four categories scratch (which are the fastest), semi-sratch, semi-limit and limit. Other clubs/leagues will have their own grading systems. Your category is determined by the organisers and will be based on your results and general performance in races to date.

austinbyrne21

Many thanks lads, that's after clearing things much better!

So, I take it a fair few of you on here race, yea? Anyway, best of luck with the rest of the season. I'll be able to follow it now with a little more knowledge.

Cheers!

Chips Lovell

Beasty wrote: »

So what was the answer?

(I presume not a lot on flat courses)

Hard to say exactly, but probably between 30 seconds and a minute. Unfortunately none of these power/speed calculators have a field to input how many cigarettes you smoke a day and what difference that would make.

levitronix

smoking didnt bother these guys !!

Beasty

el tonto wrote: »

Hard to say exactly, but probably between 30 seconds and a minute. Unfortunately none of these power/speed calculators have a field to input how many cigarettes you smoke a day and what difference that would make.

If you work through the calculator, assuming no slope starting at 35kph and 90kg on the drops (219w), to gain 1kph you would need to drop to less than 60kg

Not worth it, so far as I am concerned!

Chips Lovell

Beasty wrote: »

90kg on the drops

I'm 20kg heavier than that.

Beasty

el tonto wrote: »

I'm 20kg heavier than that.

I'm not:p

You would have to drop from 110kg to 77kg to gain 1 kph or so on the flat

DirkVoodoo

What about the other way around? How can an already light cyclist increase power. I got beaten by the mountain goat yesterday, and he wasn't even on aero bars.

cdaly_

levitronix wrote: »

that tool looks a bit mad, the difference between aerobars and hoods was almost 6kph that cant be right ??? is it ???

I reckon it's worth 2-3kph on my commute...

Chips Lovell

Beasty wrote: »

If you work through the calculator, assuming no slope starting at 35kph and 90kg on the drops (219w), to gain 1kph you would need to drop to less than 60kg

Not worth it, so far as I am concerned!

I'm calculating based on aerobars and I reckon dropping to 90kg is worth almost half a minute or 0.7kph.

Chips Lovell

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What about the other way around? How can an already light cyclist increase power. I got beaten by the mountain goat yesterday, and he wasn't even on aero bars.

Intervals. Lots of them.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What about the other way around? How can an already light cyclist increase power. I got beaten by the mountain goat yesterday, and he wasn't even on aero bars.

I'm not sure aerobars make as much speed difference as people think, they are just a much more comfortable way to maintain a low position.

Wikipedia says...

Eddie Mercyx did 49.431km in an hour with drop handlebar/round steel tubing frame/wire spokes.

Chris Boardman did 52.270km in an hour with triathlon handlebar/carbon airfoil tubing frame/carbon 4-spoke wheels.

That's only 5.7% difference, and part of that would be the frame and wheels.

Chips Lovell

That's assuming Boardman was a good as Merckx though?

DirkVoodoo

el tonto wrote: »

Intervals. Lots of them.

Maybe I should try the track league so, perhaps that is where my cycling destiny lies!

blorg

levitronix wrote: »

that tool looks a bit mad, the difference between aerobars and hoods was almost 6kph that cant be right ??? is it ???

To be honest that probably sounds about right to me if you have a decent aero bar position. That is comparing HOODS to aerobars. Hoods are not a very aero position at all. Drops to aerobars would be a smaller although still significant difference.

Dropping weight makes very little difference on a flat course. You basically just have the penalty of accelerating the mass up to speed. Of course few courses are perfectly flat, last night's certainly wasn't.

Chips Lovell

Does headwind also make a difference? I mean would it not require more power to propel yourself against a headwind if you were heavier? Or is my phyics just dodgy?

blorg

austinbyrne21 wrote: »

Many thanks lads, that's after clearing things much better!

To add to what Tonto posted, I would strongly advise if you want to start racing to join a club and start in the club league. It is a far better introduction to road racing.

In a club you can learn the basics of group riding on club spins and then graduate to the league where it is well handicapped, you are racing against others of similar ability, and the bunches are smaller so it is easier to learn how to position yourself.

Open racing starts faster and longer and the bunches are very big. It is not the ideal place to learn how to group ride.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

Dropping weight makes very little difference on a flat course. You basically just have the penalty of accelerating the mass up to speed. Of course few courses are perfectly flat, last night's certainly wasn't.

According to that calculator it does. Someone at 110kg would need to generate 272 watts to match a 75kg rider generating 252 watts on a perfectly flat course.

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

Does headwind also make a difference? I mean would it not require more power to propel yourself against a headwind if you were heavier? Or is my phyics just dodgy?

Only marginally; there is not much difference in the frontal profile of a large cyclist compared to a smaller one. If that weight is muscle you can see a big increase in power for only a small increase in frontal profile. Think of Indurain and Cancellara, both very big guys.

If it is fat, there still isn't that much of an aero penalty, but it will cost in the hills.

dave.obrien

Magnus Backstead was saying on Eurosport's Tour of Turkey coverage that the ideal position on a standard road bike for aerodynamic advatage is actually to be crouched on the hoods, as your arms approach a more horizontal position, make a smaller front profile and are closer to the aero-bar position than in the drops. This was based on off-season wind tunnel testing he had been doing...

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

According to that calculator it does. Someone at 110kg would need to generate 272 watts to match a 75kg rider generating 252 watts on a perfectly flat course.

We probably need to test this with loaded trailers.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

According to that calculator it does. Someone at 110kg would need to generate 272 watts to match a 75kg rider generating 252 watts on a perfectly flat course.

I doubt the difference in rolling resistance would be 20W, but then we are not point masses, and you present a larger profile to the wind that Tom (for instance).

I guess the real question is: would you need 20W less power to maintain the same speed if you somehow managed to drop 35kg without skeletal replacement? I think the answer is: you wouldn't care about flat time trials any more because you'd be winning every hilly race on the calendar.

austinbyrne21

blorg wrote: »

To add to what Tonto posted, I would strongly advise if you want to start racing to join a club and start in the club league. It is a far better introduction to road racing.

In a club you can learn the basics of group riding on club spins and then graduate to the league where it is well handicapped, you are racing against others of similar ability, and the bunches are smaller so it is easier to learn how to position yourself.

Open racing starts faster and longer and the bunches are very big. It is not the ideal place to learn how to group ride.

Still a good way from that sort of thinking but cheers for the heads up. Just meself and a mate out cycling at the minute and suits fine. Thanks anyway though.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

I doubt the difference in rolling resistance would be 20W, but then we are not point masses, and you present a larger profile to the wind that Tom (for instance).

I guess the real question is: would you need 20W less power to maintain the same speed if you somehow managed to drop 35kg without skeletal replacement? I think the answer is: you wouldn't care about flat time trials any more because you'd be winning every hilly race on the calendar.

I'm not talking about dropping 35kg, just illustrating that weight apparently does make a difference.

niceonetom

dave.obrien wrote: »

Magnus Backstead was saying on Eurosport's Tour of Turkey coverage that the ideal position on a standard road bike for aerodynamic advatage is actually to be crouched on the hoods, as your arms approach a more horizontal position, make a smaller front profile and are closer to the aero-bar position than in the drops. This was based on off-season wind tunnel testing he had been doing...

That's certainly my totally subjective impression. If you look at a TT in a small tour where many teams don't bother to bring TT bikes you'll see a lot of riders getting as close as they can to a TT position by using the hoods and sitting forward on the saddle:

link


Using the drops seems to require less work from the structural muscles and the arms though, so for anything for than a few minutes it is preferable.

blorg

dave.obrien wrote: »

Magnus Backstead was saying on Eurosport's Tour of Turkey coverage that the ideal position on a standard road bike for aerodynamic advatage is actually to be crouched on the hoods, as your arms approach a more horizontal position, make a smaller front profile and are closer to the aero-bar position than in the drops. This was based on off-season wind tunnel testing he had been doing...

You see that position with the two guys behind Backstedt here. It is commonly enough used and lets you get aero while still being able to pop your head up easily for visability.



I imagine that calculator when talking about a "hoods" position is more like this:

dave.obrien

Blorg, absolutely, and he did make a point of differentiating between being on the hoods in a 'potter up the hill' way and an 'I hope the peloton doesn't catch me' way.

And @niceonetom, I agree, I alternated between the two last night because I found it tough enough on the arms.

Lumen

Occasionally, when I'm feeling immortal, I take Blorg's advice and put forearms flat on either side of the stem and grip the cables for control.

What could possibly go wrong?

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

What could possibly go wrong?

Nietzschean

Lumen wrote: »

Occasionally, when I'm feeling immortal, I take Blorg's advice and put forearms flat on either side of the stem and grip the cables for control.

What could possibly go wrong?

Its certainly an exhilarating way to descend down a mountain...