Tooth trauma

Big_G

Just thought I'd start a thread here, stimulated by a couple of posts in the news thread and airsoftmedicine.com. I'm a dentist, interested in dental trauma cases from airsoft bb impact to maybe publish an anecdotal paper. I'm based in the north Kildare area and would be willing to provide free examination and treatment planning for anyone at the wrong end of a bb caused tooth injury in exchange for the use of clinical photographs and anecdotal information such as estimated distance from shooter, etc.

I have only heard stories of this but never actually seen it and there are no papers in the lit, so it is an opportunity for a nerd like me to get in there with a paper.

PM me if any other info needed.

TNTQ

Big_G wrote: »

Just thought I'd start a thread here, stimulated by a couple of posts in the news thread and airsoftmedicine.com. I'm a dentist, interested in dental trauma cases from airsoft bb impact to maybe publish an anecdotal paper. I'm based in the north Kildare area and would be willing to provide free examination and treatment planning for anyone at the wrong end of a bb caused tooth injury in exchange for the use of clinical photographs and anecdotal information such as estimated distance from shooter, etc.

I have only heard stories of this but never actually seen it and there are no papers in the lit, so it is an opportunity for a nerd like me to get in there with a paper.

PM me if any other info needed.

PM me - I once tactically deflected a bb with a tooth

Seriously - pm me

kdouglas

Received a direct hit to one of my front teeth (no skin/lips to cushion the blow) from approx 10-15ft away. Hurt for a day or two afterwards, but no permanent damage.

Masada

What exactly would ya be planning on doing with the information/photos etc though if ya dont mind me asking?

Im sure many others share the same concerns too but i'd be a little wary of providing "injury" photos since it can reflect quite badly on the sport if viewed in the wrong context.

On the subject though, I was hit in the upper canine once and not a bother, horrible feeling though when it happens, and in the same day I later broke my bottom incisor on a bottle of water with one of those pully outty lids.

bullets

Am curious myself at what damage BB's can do to the Human Body. I've always been skeptical about impacts to teeth etc despite horrific reports so would be curious to know what damage can be caused.

Since were always told 1j is safe and a ball park figure where a BB could not penetrate the eye or skin you would wonder why the the same so called safe BB could shatter or damage a tooth other than a tooth being a hard solid object more so than squessy skin or eye membrane.

With that said despite teeth damage etc I would love if we could use Greater than 1j airsoft gear here in Ireland (with the propper safety gear of course)

~B

sean.carolan100

Big_G wrote: »

Just thought I'd start a thread here, stimulated by a couple of posts in the news thread and airsoftmedicine.com. I'm a dentist, interested in dental trauma cases from airsoft bb impact to maybe publish an anecdotal paper. I'm based in the north Kildare area and would be willing to provide free examination and treatment planning for anyone at the wrong end of a bb caused tooth injury in exchange for the use of clinical photographs and anecdotal information such as estimated distance from shooter, etc.

I have only heard stories of this but never actually seen it and there are no papers in the lit, so it is an opportunity for a nerd like me to get in there with a paper.

PM me if any other info needed.

I took a bb from about 30ft, shattered half my tooth, Got it capped. Pm me for details.

Spetzcong

For research into the effects of BB strikes to teeth to be accurate would the exact fps of the airsoft device and the healthiness or otherwise of the teeth not be particularly relevant? I suppose the health of the teeth could be determined upon examination, but would you not need to be 100% sure of the fps of the airsoft device which caused the injury as well as the approximate distance it was fired from?

Killinator

I had part of my front tooth surgically removed by a shotgun:D
That said the part that got knocked off had been filled from a unrelated incident along while back

Hivemind187

I've seen it happen 2 or 3 times over the years. Its usually the upper front teeth. It's caused a semi circular chunk to be taken out of the tooth. It always seemed to happen when a player was doing something like "grinning at the enemy".

An interesting calculation about this though is;

If we assume 5 active sites (I know there are more but bare with me) and we assume 20 players per site per day per weekend out of a 50 week gaming year. The average player expending a thousand rounds in a day we get the following equation

5 x 20 x 50 x 1000
which is 5,000,000 rounds fired.

I've seen 2 an heard about 1 tooth incident at various sites in 4 years. Taking that 2006 was a write off year and we didnt get going until 2007 we can call that 3 years. Assuming the other site have had about the same number of incidents (which is unlikely since they havent been open as long as HRTA) this means we can assume 1 chipped tooth per year per venue (roughly).

5 (venues) x 3 (years) = 15.

5,000,000 / 15 = 333,333.333 (recurring).

Thats a lot of rounds to knock out one tooth!

With so many rounds flying about, it is statistically insignificant the number of people who are suffering a cracked, broken or otherwise damaged tooth (particularly since I have used extremely conservative numbers in the estimates above). I would infer, at a glance, that the occurrence of teeth breaking or chipping may be more related to pre-existing conditions (micro fractures, structural weakness etc) rather than directly to a >1joule BB strike.

Airsoft Reloded

sean.carolan100 wrote: »

I took a bb from about 30ft, shattered half my tooth, Got it capped. Pm me for details.

The gun that broke your tooth was firing at .97 Sean, that was one of the better breaks I've seen too. This is the reason all sites recommend full face protection though.

I've witnessed 7 people have tooth injuries but they were all playing cqb indoors at the time.

Big_G

Just to clarify:

1) All information received or given during examination including photographs, radiographs, medical history, dental history, social history etc is, was and always shall be treated with the utmost confidentiality (world without end, amen). This is the law. Any photographs are anonymised and would only be used in a publication in the scientific literature (usually only viewed by other dentists or nerds), or stored on the secure servers in our clinic.

2) At this point I am not ready to do a scientific study. I don't have the equipment or background ballistic knowledge or even have access to ballistic studies in order to make that a reality. What I am looking to do is publish anecdotal evidence in a scientific journal. Basically, that is what it sounds like, recounting the story in order to make a wider field of people aware of the phenomenon. This may lead on to scientific research at a later date. You gather information about what happened in the field, and then you gather clinical data such as measurements of tooth vitality and what was done in the line of treatment at the time. At this point, I am merely putting out feelers to see if there is enough data there to make it worthwhile publishing. It already seems that it is.

3) I am not interested in making airsoft look bad, I am an airsofter myself. I am interested in making myself look good .

Thanks for the replies so far, keep them coming.

hitman__

Any injuries I've seen (and I've seen quite a few including myself), were tooth chipping effect where the lower quarter (or part) of a tooth is removed by the impact of the BB. It's a strange sensation and feels like your whole tooth is gone. My hit was about 35 feet approx.
There are so many variables in play, I don't really see the point of writing a paper on it tbh, anecdotal or otherwise. What is the purpose or agenda behind the idea ??
Cheers
Hitman

//Edit// - Just seen your reply, it's ok.

di11on

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I've seen it happen 2 or 3 times over the years. Its usually the upper front teeth. It's caused a semi circular chunk to be taken out of the tooth. It always seemed to happen when a player was doing something like "grinning at the enemy".

An interesting calculation about this though is;

If we assume 5 active sites (I know there are more but bare with me) and we assume 20 players per site per day per weekend out of a 50 week gaming year. The average player expending a thousand rounds in a day we get the following equation

5 x 20 x 50 x 1000
which is 5,000,000 rounds fired.

I've seen 2 an heard about 1 tooth incident at various sites in 4 years. Taking that 2006 was a write off year and we didnt get going until 2007 we can call that 3 years. Assuming the other site have had about the same number of incidents (which is unlikely since they havent been open as long as HRTA) this means we can assume 1 chipped tooth per year per venue (roughly).

5 (venues) x 3 (years) = 15.

5,000,000 / 15 = 333,333.333 (recurring).

Thats a lot of rounds to knock out one tooth!

With so many rounds flying about, it is statistically insignificant the number of people who are suffering a cracked, broken or otherwise damaged tooth (particularly since I have used extremely conservative numbers in the estimates above). I would infer, at a glance, that the occurrence of teeth breaking or chipping may be more related to pre-existing conditions (micro fractures, structural weakness etc) rather than directly to a >1joule BB strike.

By your figures, for any one player on a given day on a particular site, the chances of having your tooth knocked out are 1000 / 333,333 = 0.003 = 0.3%

I don't call that "statistically insignificant".

It means, I can expect to skirmish 333 times before my tooth gets knocked out.

It's a very significant risk. And if the actual number of players is greater than your assumption of 20 players per site (my experience to date has been an average of around 50 players per game I've attended), then the risk can only be greater.

What I'm saying is, wear gum shields or a full face mask!

Big_G

Hivemind,
Those are some interesting statistics. The occurence of a phenomenon doesn't have to be statistically significant to be published, it just needs to be interesting .

Most things that are statistically significant are well studied anyway. I just thought it would be nice to get some stories in the literature. I don't think it will change the face of dentistry or airsoft for that matter. Like in any sport where injury is a risk, people will either choose to protect themselves or not. I believe that is their right.

Thanks for the replies.

Inari

Getting involved in statistics will just excite the hypochondriacs. Yes there is a chance you'll get your tooth shot off, just as there is a chance you'll be struck by lightening etc. The thing about these statistics, we'll say for arguments sake that every 333,333.333 (etc) rounds, someone gets HIT in the tooth (not necessarily breaks)...that means there's another 333,333.333 rounds 'til you're in the lotto for a tooth shakedown, not to mention the fact that the person who gets hit in the tooth area may be wearing protection.

I'd agree with Hivemind that its infitismal, and is down more so to chance and personal choice. Although no one chooses to get hit in the tooth, you do choose not to wear mouth protection which means you actively take that risk.

Puding

Would kinda disagree with the figures as I've personal experiances or know people who have had strikes 4 hits in a year with 2 resulting in damage, but that's the issue ant numbers are very much pulled out of thin air also chances vary greatly depending on the type of site and type of games, speedball or cqb is higher milsim seems to be lower,

Bb weight, fps, angle, range, health of tooth , type of tooth , so so many variables but from somone who hates the dentist it's madness to play the lotto with your teeth

di11on

Inari wrote: »

Getting involved in statistics will just excite the hypochondriacs. Yes there is a chance you'll get your tooth shot off, just as there is a chance you'll be struck by lightening etc. The thing about these statistics, we'll say for arguments sake that every 333,333.333 (etc) rounds, someone gets HIT in the tooth (not necessarily breaks)...that means there's another 333,333.333 rounds 'til you're in the lotto for a tooth shakedown, not to mention the fact that the person who gets hit in the tooth area may be wearing protection.

I'd agree with Hivemind that its infitismal, and is down more so to chance and personal choice. Although no one chooses to get hit in the tooth, you do choose not to wear mouth protection which means you actively take that risk.

Chances of being struck by lightening in a year: between 1 in 500000 and 1 in 280000
Sources: http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/odds1.html
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html

Chances of having a tooth knocked out in a single year playing airsoft, according to Hivemind's figures, assuming 25 skirmishes a year = 1 in 13

They are not equal risks. One is worth doing something about, the other, maybe not so.

There's no point trying to cover it up and pretend it's not a risk... just encourage people to protect their teeth instead... just like we insist on eye protection.

Airsoft Reloded

di11on wrote: »

Chances of being struck by lightening in a year: between 1 in 500000 and 1 in 280000
Sources: http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/odds1.html
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html

Chances of having a tooth knocked out playing airsoft, according to Hivemind's figures, assuming 25 skirmishes a year = 1 in 13

They are not equal risks. One is worth doing something about, the other, maybe not so.

There's no point trying to cover it up and pretend it's not a risk... just encourage people to protect their teeth instead... just like we insist on eye protection.

Wear full face when playing in close quaters and you'll be ok. Obviously no risk is insignificant and definitely worth investigating even if its purely academic it could give us a better insight into the risks of the game, which will only help us make it safer by adjusting the rules to suit the new found knowledge.

evilrobotshane

Hivemind187 wrote: »

With so many rounds flying about, it is statistically insignificant the number of people who are suffering a cracked, broken or otherwise damaged tooth

Dude from Penny Arcade said something on the topic of his X-Box dying that I liked, something along the lines of "when it happens to you, the failure rate might as well be 100%". I can certainly imagine this being of interest to the dental profession, it's got to be a somewhat unusual situation, of a sharp strike taking out part of a tooth, in an outdoor environment so finding the missing piece is unlikely, and it being a very small impact area (compared to say a cricket bat, steering wheel or road) so there's no associated tissue trauma.

I had a BB in The Warehouse smash through my face mask and go into my mouth. It had lost enough juice on the way that it didn't even hurt, but it certainly taught me a lesson about economising.

Inari

@Dilon: Have a friend who was struck by lightening...twice. As I said, there's always a chance of soemthing happening, but with a BB to the tooth, you can wear protection and significantly reduce the risk

mcshape

Good to know we have a dentist out there looking to fix our teeth if we get them shot out!, What i would suggest if you are offering to do the repair work in return for a few mug shots give the sites your details so if a player does get a tooth knocked out your clinic number is available to the player to call and see about treatment, Ive been present for 2 people teeth being knocked out by BB's and the question is always (in a hicks from aliens voice) "its all f***ed man what are we gonna do!!"

di11on

Inari wrote: »

@Dilon: Have a friend who was struck by lightening...twice. As I said, there's always a chance of soemthing happening, but with a BB to the tooth, you can wear protection and significantly reduce the risk

That's my point... the risk is significant enough to do something about it - i.e. wear protection.

Big_G

Just to clarify a few things:

1) The only thing that I am offering in exchange for photos and other data is examination and treatment advice. I am not offering repairs for free, I could not afford to do that. You are not obligated to have any treatment done with me after that point. This is not a means for me to get new business, that would be unethical. I am actually fairly busy at the moment, it is more of a side bit of study.

2) I don't think anyone can say accurately what the level of risk is. I know for a fact that nothing has been published about teeth and airsoft yet. All that I know is that this phenomenon exists (and that is only based on what I have heard here).

3) I think it is safe to say, even at this early point, that if you want to reduce your level of risk, wear protection for the face, not just the eyes. However, nobody can say how much the risk is reduced, because nobody knows what it is in the first place.

I am finding this thread quite interesting, and it is obviously an area of concern for quite a few players. I must say I have played with and without face protection, and I just saw a ding in the mouth area of my face mask from the last time I went out, I'm pretty sure that if that bb had hit my teeth that would have bloody hurt, not to mention may have chipped something or caused a nerve to die.

Again, conjecture at this point. No hard data has been collected or analysed.

ED E

Interesting thread.

Anyone remember whupass? *

*see what I did there XD

The One Who Knocks

well, if your interested in knowing how much damage a bb can do,

once my bro's friend, wanted to test his new 0.96 joule pistol, so he shot his hand at point blank and the bb actually ripped it in half (not just putting a hole in it) it was actually ripped and he lost 2 fingers

then once, my bro wanted me to test his new sniper on him, i shot him from about 3 metres and he was bleeding lol

anyway theres my 2 stories of stupidity, not that i would do anything like that lol!

Markom5a

Jamez735 wrote: »

well, if your interested in knowing how much damage a bb can do,

once my bro's friend, wanted to test his new 0.96 joule pistol, so he shot his hand at point blank and the bb actually ripped it in half (not just putting a hole in it) it was actually ripped and he lost 2 fingers

then once, my bro wanted me to test his new sniper on him, i shot him from about 3 metres and he was bleeding lol

anyway theres my 2 stories of stupidity, not that i would do anything like that lol!

:rolleyes:

Wow two fingers at .96 joules! I once pointed a wii remote at my brother.... He now has one leg! Seriously man not cool! As if airsoft could do with anymore scare mongerers!!

This is a serious issue in which I myself have great intrest as I game with out a mask.

Go be a troll somewhere else!

The Master

Jamez735 wrote: »

well, if your interested in knowing how much damage a bb can do,

once my bro's friend, wanted to test his new 0.96 joule pistol, so he shot his hand at point blank and the bb actually ripped it in half (not just putting a hole in it) it was actually ripped and he lost 2 fingers

then once, my bro wanted me to test his new sniper on him, i shot him from about 3 metres and he was bleeding lol

anyway theres my 2 stories of stupidity, not that i would do anything like that lol!

Do not post such rubbish scaremongering "stories" in future please.

The above is obviously not true

Gatling

And once at "Band Camp "



Big_G pm me later when you get chance

sean.carolan100

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

The gun that broke your tooth was firing at .97 Sean, that was one of the better breaks I've seen too. This is the reason all sites recommend full face protection though.

I've witnessed 7 people have tooth injuries but they were all playing cqb indoors at the time.

Yes just to clarify, I was pre warned about mouth protection, and I never disputed the fact that the gun was firing within the limits .

dazo

last december playing airsoft from roughly 30 to 40 metres had my front tooth on right side smashed with around 6mm missing since then iv had 5 to 6 fillings on it theres a steal pin in the gum to try and give the filling my strength no luck so far. and for the fore see able future i wont be getting a crown as i can not afford it.

MindPhuck

hey, i lost part of my tooth today...

can anyone recommend anywhere i can get a repair job on them that will do it quickly and reasonably cheap?

ta

Rico

k99_64

MindPhuck wrote: »

hey, i lost part of my tooth today...

can anyone recommend anywhere i can get a repair job on them that will do it quickly and reasonably cheap?

ta

Rico

bullets

As seen in Tesco: (Im Shocked anyone would think of using but they actually exist)
Have to Laugh at the Tooth and Crown Saver! ie a round plastic box to put the damaged bits in.

TheDoc

been shot a fair few times now in the choppers but come out with just minor gum bleeding but teeth have been fine.

Luck of the draw I guess and also obviously your teeth strength, my dentist always told me I'd great teeth

MindPhuck

thanks doc.

i got sorted out with the tooth - found a great spot at home (trim) who did it in an emergency and was reasonable in costs too.

Solid Snake

Thank God for that E.

Didn't want to see you next time in RedBarn lookin like this...



Glad you got it sorted.

MindPhuck

Solid Snake wrote: »

Thank God for that E.

Didn't want to see you next time in RedBarn lookin like this...



Glad you got it sorted.

haha bastid