Fingal Co Council publish Councillor Expenses

bcmf

personally I find it abhorrant and disgusting.

Eoineo

Seriously do they have any idea how hard the residents of the North County are finding it at the moment? They removed the bin tag exemption for people dependant on Social Welfare which put an awful lot of people in hardship. €8 per fortnight might seem like a pittance to some but when you're barely surviving it makes a massive difference.

Talk about alienating yourself from the reality that faces a huge amount of residents of NCD right now.

Public representatives should lead by example. This is not acceptable.

roneythetube

Where is Alan gone? He was making a fair attempt to explain the wheres and whys of councillor expenses. I say fair play to him coming on here to mix it with the ordinary folk.

Come back Alan - we want answers!

Sizzler

Alan Farrell wrote: »

Nothing changes unless people get inside and change it. That's what I am trying to do and I'm sure, many like me.

North County Leader wrote:

The vote that saw all six Fine Gael councillors supporting the Housing and Planning conference in Porto Alegre, Brazil.

Oh dear.

If any councillor genuinely believes they should be going to this conference in Brazil then they should tender their immediate reisgnation as they are genuinely not fit to make public decisions, more worryingly the majority of these people use local politics as a platform to get into the big league, any wonder we are where we are? It would appear that worst recession the country has known in modern times still isnt enough to permeate the common sense of joe politics.

LeoB

As I stated earlier I dont have a huge problem with some of the expenses but rather than sit and bitch about it has anyone any solutions? Dont mean to cheeky with my last sentence.

If you go back and look at the list of conferences and venues available there is not enough happening in Leinster and particulary Dublin.

I dont see why Fingal cant host more conferences after putting the hosting of it out to tender. We can identify our main problems, be it housing, public amenities, whatever they be, It would mean some community groups could have a rep at certain ones. There has to be a better way of doing things than what is currently happening. There are prettyu mixed feelings on this issue and I would agree with Eoghan OBrien that young Cllrs will not be as quick to spend money as older ones.

I actually there are some good people on the council at the moment from all parties but unfortunatley our political system does not allow for National government which would be good for us. IMO

Eoineo

Limit the number of conferences that can be attended outside of Ireland to 2. Limit those to European based.

Limit the number of conferences outside of the Leinster Area to 5. Limit the number of conferences in the Leinster Area to another 5.

Propose that conferences outside of the Leinster Area are reimbursed along the guidelines set out by the Dept of Finance/Revenue Commissioners guidelines for expenses - including mileage, meals & accommodation. Set this as a maximum amount that can be claimed. All items claimed must be accompanied by receipts.

No Councillor should be travelling in any other manner other than by coach (economy). If travelling by train to a conference is more economical, leave the car at home.

Encourage the use of Fingal's facilities for conferences. For example, Fingal County Hall, Malahide Castle, Ardgillan Castle, Draiocht etc. These would incur little or no rental charge as they are owned by Fingal Coco I believe.

Use the talent base that we have in our Fingal Councillors - if Ms Devitt is an expert on Airports then she should host a conference in Fingal. Drawing visitors & showing off our facilities in a showcase. Use the talent base we have in Fingal Residents & Chambers of Commerce to host the conferences. There are many brilliant companies here who are more than happy to show off how well they are doing in their fields to others, despite the recession.

That's a couple of bits off the top of my head anyway LeoB.

In a previous life I used to organise conferences and events so I would be happy to lend a hand to any councillor who would like some assistance.

LeoB

Eoineo, Thats the best post I have read in a while. Common sense. We have the venues as you stated and this is where the council should dictate to event organisers what they want lay down the rules and let the best compampany assist Fingal C.C in hosting the conferance.

BTY You have my #1 in next election

The Hill Billy

Sizzler wrote: »

Alan Farrell hasnt said a whole lot on here since the Brazil trip was mentioned,strange that.

Neither has any other councillor. Alan's posts here are made in a personal capacity, unless he chooses otherwise. Attack a post, not a poster.

HB

rubberdiddies

despite the obvious public uproar over this, as with most things political the silence from the people involved is deafening and will continue to be so till it all blows over, during which time the junket will have been and gone

tbh

Expenses in public life is one of those hot button issues where there seem to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions - the primary one, and certainly the most popular at present - is that trips like these are a total waste of money, and it would never happen in the private sector. Personally, I think that's a load of baloney.
I actually want my councillors spending reasonable amounts of money going to places to find out about best practice - we often hear people talking about how things are so much better abroad - the public transport system in Stockholm, the tax registration system in Australia, etc etc. It makes sense to me that our guys would head over there and learn from them, rather than try to figure it out for themselves and re-invent the wheel.

I have some small knowledge of a councillors life, and believe me - no amount of money would compensate me for the amount of crap they have to put up with. I don't know Alan at all, but I'd guess it's a long time since he went to a pub, football match or any social event without someone coming up to him asking him about some issue or other.

All this relentless hounding will do is make the brightest people in society withdraw from public life, because quite simply, in the court of public opinion, you're dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't.

I'm not saying for one second that there aren't some councillors swinging the lead, but this automatic assumption that anyone who claims any money at all from the council is on the take is unhelpful in the extreme.

If you know that a conference was a waste of time - say it here and outline why. but for gods sake, don't just assume that because it was organised by the council it was some massive scam.

The Hill Billy

Quality post tbh.

Sizzler

tbh wrote: »

If you know that a conference was a waste of time - say it here and outline why. but for gods sake, don't just assume that because it was organised by the council it was some massive scam.

I agree with a lot of what you have said but in respect of what I have quoted from your post, in any place I have worked the justification comes before the expenditure, not after, I think thats one of the fundamental problems here.


Alan himself has already stated in earlier posts that its pretty much optional whether or not you write up a review of "what I learnt" so the people writing the chqs dont have a bog whether or not the conference was value for money, did the attendee learn anything and what did it do for FCC. Its all well and good endorsing random conferences here and there but I bet if you went back and analyzed the varying conferences from the last 5 years, how many of the topics have brought demonstrable change to FCC policy? I'm guessing it would be small numbers, but happy to be corrected

tbh

Sizzler wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you have said but in respect of what I have quoted from your post, in any place I have worked the justification comes before the expenditure, not after, I think thats one of the fundamental problems here.

I can understand where the trust breaks down, for sure, but you would still have to have some trust that they wouldn't send the lads if they didn't think it was worth it, as opposed to just rubber stamping the requests.
For instance, I wonder how many conferences are proposed but rejected?

Alan himself has already stated in earlier posts that its pretty much optional whether or not you write up a review of "what I learnt" so the people writing the chqs dont have a bog whether or not the conference was value for money, did the attendee learn anything and what did it do for FCC.

did he not say that you have to write a review in order to get the expenses?

Alan Farrell wrote: »

Under legislation, Councillors are required to write a report on the content of the seminar which is submitted to the Council in order to be refunded the cost of travel, subsistence etc.

Its all well and good endorsing random conferences here and there but I bet if you went back and analyzed the varying conferences from the last 5 years, how many of the topics have brought demonstrable change to FCC policy? I'm guessing it would be small numbers, but happy to be corrected :

again sizzler, you've no clue (with respect - don't mean that in a bad way, I don't have a clue either) which conferences are endorsed and why. I understand, given all the media coverage, why you have this view on council work, but is it based on what you know, or what you've read?

Eoineo

tbh wrote: »

I actually want my councillors spending reasonable amounts of money going to places to find out about best practice - we often hear people talking about how things are so much better abroad - the public transport system in Stockholm, the tax registration system in Australia, etc etc. It makes sense to me that our guys would head over there and learn from them, rather than try to figure it out for themselves and re-invent the wheel.

I agree with you to the extent that I want the councillors to be familiar with best practice in other countries. However factfinding trips need only be the last resort for those who need information. FCC have an excellent internet connection and most councillors would be well able to do research on the web, by telephone and by email. This leaves them with more time to devote to local issues and cuts back on expenses.

tbh wrote: »

If you know that a conference was a waste of time - say it here and outline why. but for gods sake, don't just assume that because it was organised by the council it was some massive scam.

Conferences abroad aren't a scam to the best of my knowledge. The particular conference above seems to have been organised by an internationally renowned network of planners so I doubt it's a scam by the organisers or the attendees.

I do object to the numbers of conferences and expense associated with them on a number of levels.

For example, the conference in Brazil.

We have our own world-renowned planning institute in Ireland. They run regular information events, and an annual conference. Why not use their expertise rather than send public representatives to Brazil?

The conference in Brazil is aimed at Town Planners. As I understand it, councillors are not town planners but public representatives. FCC employs town planners in their own right. Apologies if it's a thick question but why send public representatives to a town planning conference but not someone who is employed as a town planner in their own right? Are the elected public representatives not able to discuss any questions they might have on policy with the council employees?

At a recent council meeting (08/03/2010) the following conferences in the month of March 2010 were agreed to:

CONFERENCE WITH THE THEME “DRIVING LOCAL SUSTAINABLE TOURISM IN A STAGNANT GLOBAL ECONOMY” ROSCARBERY COUNTY CORK 12TH TO 14TH MARCH 2010

CONFERENCE WITH THE THEME “BETTER COMMUNICATION MEANS BETTER RESULTS” KILKENNY 19TH TO 21ST MARCH 2010

TIME MANAGEMENT MEDIA AND I.T. SKILLS CONFERENCE-A GUIDE FOR THE BUSY COUNCILLOR CORK 26TH TO 28TH MARCH 2010

CONFERENCE WITH THE THEME “PLANNING FOR A SMARTER IRELAND” TULLAMORE COUNTY OFFALY 15TH AND 16TH APRIL 2010

SEMINAR WITH THE THEME “A GUIDE TO CHILD PROTECTION” ARDMORE COUNTY WATERFORD 16TH TO 18TH APRIL 2010

BUSINESS INVESTMENT DISTRICT SCHEME CONFERENCE DUNDALK 11TH MAY 2010

The conference in Tullamore is actually held by the Irish Planning Institute so I'm not sure why there is also a need to attend another conference in Brazil?

WRT The seminar on "Child Protection".
This is something I am familiar with. If you were working with children (as in a supervisory role - e.g. youth worker, teacher etc) then the 2 day conference would be essential. It could be held in Dublin though. If you were to come into contact with children as part of your day to day role then you may not need to complete a full 2 day course. Either way there shouldn't be a need to travel to Waterford for a child protection seminar as there are plenty of service providers in Fingal who I'm sure would be happy to help.

LeoB

Eoineo wrote: »

WRT The seminar on "Child Protection".
This is something I am familiar with. If you were working with children (as in a supervisory role - e.g. youth worker, teacher etc) then the 2 day conference would be essential. It could be held in Dublin though. If you were to come into contact with children as part of your day to day role then you may not need to complete a full 2 day course. Either way there shouldn't be a need to travel to Waterford for a child protection seminar as there are plenty of service providers in Fingal who I'm sure would be happy to help.

Another good post. I am a coach in a G.A.A Club as part of our training we have a qualifed instructer come in to do a session on "Best practice's dealing with children", "Rights of the child", Do's and Dont's if you like, which are all fairly staright forward.
The sports council also have good guidelines and as you stae unless you are dealing with kids as part of your day job there is no need for anyone to attend the course in Waterford.

I would imagine most if not all the unions and dept of Education would hold courses like these for staff on a fairly regular basis.

Sizzler

tbh wrote: »

I can understand where the trust breaks down, for sure, but you would still have to have some trust that they wouldn't send the lads if they didn't think it was worth it, as opposed to just rubber stamping the requests.
For instance, I wonder how many conferences are proposed but rejected?

Fair point, its conjecture on both our parts as we dont know the answer! It would appear from Alan's prior posts though that there is a budget allocation and if you dont use it, it rolls over to the next year, this would imply its pretty much open season(within limits I am sure, I doubt if they could go to a conference on something outside their remit).

tbh wrote: »

did he not say that you have to write a review in order to get the expenses?

He did indeed, again this is under legislation but I bet if you did an FOI you will find that not every councillor does them. Only one way to find out

tbh wrote: »

again sizzler, you've no clue (with respect - don't mean that in a bad way, I don't have a clue either) which conferences are endorsed and why. I understand, given all the media coverage, why you have this view on council work, but is it based on what you know, or what you've read?

Its based on both, honest answer

To be fair mate, conferences are only one facet of council expenditure which is up here because its directly attributable to individuals, by the same token I am sure if so inclined any of us could find much larger tranches of council expenditure which would make your eyes water, check out the county managers salary as a starter for ten :eek:

rubberdiddies

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/may/16/bermuda-angle-councillors-in-plans-for-junket/

as if Brazil wasnt enough of a junket, now they get to vote on whether or not to go to Bermuda next.

I wonder which councillors will vote in favour of this?? Will be interesting to see

bcmf

jesus they are just taking the piss now.

Sizzler

rubberdiddies wrote: »

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/may/16/bermuda-angle-councillors-in-plans-for-junket/

as if Brazil wasnt enough of a junket, now they get to vote on whether or not to go to Bermuda next.

I wonder which councillors will vote in favour of this?? Will be interesting to see

Its an airport conference, I'm sure Anne Devitt will be at the top of the Q for this one :rolleyes: