Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Conas · 03-09-2011 3:35pm

rockman15 wrote: »

Toner was a disgrace tonight. I've said it before here many times, his biomechanics are not suitable for a professional rugby player. His legs are disproportionately to his torso. They are too long to allow him to get into a good stable position at a ruck. He cant get low enough to tackle around the legs and at scrum time his back is bent in the most horrific fashion not giving any rigid pressure to his prop. If ever there was an example of how to not engage at contact in any facet of play Toner is your man. Every second row at schoolboy level should be shown his videos and told not to copy him. And after 3 years as a pro he still looks like a scrawny 18 year old. His best weapon behing his height at lineouts last night wasnt even used as they were mucked up. In stark contrast whoever that Glasgow lock was last night with the scrum cap on him, outclassed Toner in every facet of the game. Approx same height from the tv, but his skill set and body mass was beyond Toner in every way.

Give Locky his shot.

What about Steven Sykes the new signing? Is this guy any good? Locky had his best game in the second row last season I thought. Very good in the lineout last night. He's a second rower in my eyes and always has been.

PhatPiggins · 03-09-2011 3:36pm

Hagz wrote: »

Niall Morris scores on hi sTigers debut.

I think Morris will do well with Leicester. Quick, strong and physical he's a good fit for their game plan

durkadurka · 03-09-2011 3:51pm

Was chatting to big mal a while ago, he reckons Morris is like another geordan. I thought he was another shaggy myself.

He'll hopefully get a few good chances in the next few weeks anyhow.

GerM · 03-09-2011 3:52pm

Hagz wrote: »

I would actually like to see Mark Flanagan given a start. He has definitely bulked up from last year and I think he was decent coming off the bench and in the pre-season game against Rebels. He's only 21/22? So if he comes good it would be a massive plus for the club.

He's an interesting one. I'll admit, I don't know a huge amount about him. I was under the impression he wasn't rated in Leinster due to his lack of senior or A appearances but someone on here (possibly roycon?) said that he was focussed on his studies and didn't want to concentrate on rugby until they were complete. He seemed to do well enough last night when involved so hopefully he can kick on and become a regular match day player. He has just turned 22 so there's plenty of time for him to develop.

vinny chase · 03-09-2011 4:16pm

Hagz wrote: »

I would actually like to see Mark Flanagan given a start. He has definitely bulked up from last year and I think he was decent coming off the bench and in the pre-season game against Rebels. He's only 21/22? So if he comes good it would be a massive plus for the club.

I agree, I thought Flanagan was good last night when he got a chance. I agree as well with the previous poster who was critical of Toner. I don't like criticising Leinster players, especially when I feel they try hard, like I think Devin does, but I just think he struggles in the physical stakes. So many of the games when I think Leinster's pack is being beaten up are games when he is featuring in the 2nd row.

He seems to find it very tough to project his power because of his height and relative lack of bulk. He seems a big easy target to tackle, and because of his length, relatively easy to close off and turnover when tackled.

Kevin McLaughlin has stated he doesn't feel he's been given a crack at 2nd row, though his preference is for 6. If Auv'a is fit enough for it, I wouldn't mind seeing him get a crack from the start, with Ruddock playing in his best position at 6.

PhatPiggins · 03-09-2011 4:18pm

Hagz wrote: »

Niall Morris scores on hi sTigers debut.

And his second

rockman15 · 03-09-2011 4:20pm

Conas wrote: »

What about Steven Sykes the new signing? Is this guy any good? Locky had his best game in the second row last season I thought. Very good in the lineout last night. He's a second rower in my eyes and always has been.

Sykkes a good specimen of a saffa lock. BUt the days of matfield , POC, Leo etc are long gone. locks have to be more dynamic in their work around a park. To avoid the cliche of not describing what dynamism here in this context is, more forward meter gaining carries and not the bull5hit POC does by crabbing across the pitch, offloading through the tackle and not hitting the deck instantly, passing occassionaly to those in better positions, taking on offloaded ball on their players shoulder and not looking immediatly to act as first receiver. The change will now be towards having 2 locks who are more like backrowers. Locky is more than capable of meeting this requirement.

Hagz · 03-09-2011 4:22pm

PhatPiggins wrote: »

And his second

Both from Thomas Waldrom chips, funny.

Stev_o · 03-09-2011 4:22pm

PhatPiggins wrote: »

And his second

This available to watch?

Hagz · 03-09-2011 4:25pm

Stev_o wrote: »

This available to watch?

Don't think so, I'm just getting it from the tweets.
30-28 to Exeter if you're wondering

profitius · 03-09-2011 4:53pm

rockman15 wrote: »

Sykkes a good specimen of a saffa lock. BUt the days of matfield , POC, Leo etc are long gone. locks have to be more dynamic in their work around a park. To avoid the cliche of not describing what dynamism here in this context is, more forward meter gaining carries and not the bull5hit POC does by crabbing across the pitch, offloading through the tackle and not hitting the deck instantly, passing occassionaly to those in better positions, taking on offloaded ball on their players shoulder and not looking immediatly to act as first receiver. The change will now be towards having 2 locks who are more like backrowers. Locky is more than capable of meeting this requirement.

POC has been described by Mike McGurn as the best athlete he has ever worked with. He can do more work in a match than most forwards. You won't see him much on youtube like Chabal but you will see him all over the pitch ever time he plays.

03-09-2011 4:55pm

profitius wrote: »

POC has been described by Mike McGurn as the best athlete he has ever worked with. He can do more work in a match than most forwards. You won't see him much on youtube like Chabal but you will see him all over the pitch ever time he plays.

Unfortunately it's not enough for the modern game. You need locks with hands like 12s, and need some form of creativity from your forwards. We have almost nobody in this mould in any of our 4 provincial teams playing in the second row.

rockman15 · 03-09-2011 5:10pm

profitius wrote: »

POC has been described by Mike McGurn as the best athlete he has ever worked with. He can do more work in a match than most forwards. You won't see him much on youtube like Chabal but you will see him all over the pitch ever time he plays.

Only of late (the last 3 games) has he really done any athletic work. He has obviously responded to a clear change in expectations over the summer and I have credited him elsewhere for this. I thought he actually had a good game last weekend against the English.
However his performances in a green shirt over the last year have largely been forgettable. I cant remember him making the gain line or better in a single game in the last 6Ns. As Maxine Wrong Grits points out, the requirements have stepped up beyond athleticism, which is what is going to kill Devon Toner's chances of progressing further.

shuffol · 03-09-2011 7:07pm

True POC isnt what you'd call a modern lock forward but he's a warrior and we'd be goosed without him.

I dont see Mcaughlin as the solution to the type of 2nd row your after Rockman. He's obviousy got the mobility from playing in the backrow but his hands are pretty poor and he doesnt look to offload. In fact I reckon he carries more like a second row than a backrow. Keeps the ball in two hands, doesnt try to fend his opposite number or offload, just sticks the head down and tries to burrow a few metres, he was good at running from deep last night though which is something we need more of.

Agree completely regarding Toner, the guy tries but only radical surgery is going to turn him into a rugby player.

jacothelad · 03-09-2011 7:13pm

Tuohy.

03-09-2011 7:20pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Tuohy.

when on form, can be the best lock in Ireland imo.

Needs to keep form though, we've waited for consistency and freedom from injury!

shuffol · 03-09-2011 7:35pm

If you were to compile a list of the top 5 or 10 performances by Irish locks in a season Tuohy and O'Connell would more or less have a monopoly on it. If Tuohy can develop some consistency he could be the answer to our prayers, unfortunately I think he could also do a Ryan Caldwell and disappear from the scene altogether.

ambid · 03-09-2011 9:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

when on form, can be the best lock in Ireland imo.

Needs to keep form though, we've waited for consistency and freedom from injury!

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I wonder if Tuohy played for Leinster or Munster would he have had more opportunities for Ireland? He is a very good player.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-09-2011 9:22pm

ambid wrote: »

I don't want to open a can of worms, but I wonder if Tuohy played for Leinster or Munster would he have had more opportunities for Ireland? He is a very good player.

He had great form when he played in the last year.

He was injured for the 6Ns (I honestly think he would have played if fit) and was injured again at the end of the season and I'd say if he had of finished last season he would have been in the training squad for he RWC. From there anything could have happened.

roycon · 03-09-2011 10:09pm

GerM wrote: »

He's an interesting one. I'll admit, I don't know a huge amount about him. I was under the impression he wasn't rated in Leinster due to his lack of senior or A appearances but someone on here (possibly roycon?) said that he was focussed on his studies and didn't want to concentrate on rugby until they were complete. He seemed to do well enough last night when involved so hopefully he can kick on and become a regular match day player. He has just turned 22 so there's plenty of time for him to develop.

had his graduation from engineering this week. afaik hes just concentrating on rugby this year and not doing any further studies.from mullingar came up through ireland/ leinster youths. has been playing in the senior team in ucd for four straight years. very hard working, athletic, great hands and offloading, great in the lineout - could still do with filling out a bit more and still has to work on his aggression but will improve every game.

roycon · 03-09-2011 10:13pm

rockman15 wrote: »

Only of late (the last 3 games) has he really done any athletic work. He has obviously responded to a clear change in expectations over the summer and I have credited him elsewhere for this. I thought he actually had a good game last weekend against the English.
However his performances in a green shirt over the last year have largely been forgettable. I cant remember him making the gain line or better in a single game in the last 6Ns. As Maxine Wrong Grits points out, the requirements have stepped up beyond athleticism, which is what is going to kill Devon Toner's chances of progressing further.

your bread and butter for a second row will always be your lineout and your defensive work - if you dont have these it doesnt matter if your lebron james

roycon · 03-09-2011 10:20pm

CouchSmart wrote: »

Would take the captaincy off Ruddock myself - not because of his performance but he's just not up to it yet. I didn't see him once mention to the ref about Ospreys going straight off their feet over Leinster ball or getting into offside positions, blocking the ruck from approaching players.

It's hard to know who to give captaincy to, probably Nacewa for me. Let Ruddock be pack leader without pressure of team captain.

I'd be very tempted to move McLoughlin into the second row and let him call the lineout, which frees up 6 for Ruddock and 8 for Auva'a. Very worried about Toner's performances. He rarely plays well (when he does, he's great) with the game against Saracens in Wembley last year being probably the last time he played well. His height seems to be more of a hindrance than anything as well, as he's (perhaps) too heavy to get into the air and never seems to dominate in the lineout like I'd expect.

Was very impressed with Fitz at centre, though perhaps defensively not there yet - Ospreys centre's got a lot of ground, I'd have to look back to see if Fitz/O'Malley/someone else was at fault as I'm purely speculating right now. Would start him there again.

Willis was a saviour in the second half. Much better performance than young Cooney, who will no doubt have learned a lot from that first half.

id give omalley the captaincy. very solid character and he'll be round starting for every game for the next 4 weeks or so. he's been around long enough and hes leinster born and bred and captained through school and underage

padser · 03-09-2011 11:56pm

rockman15 wrote: »

Only of late (the last 3 games) has he really done any athletic work. He has obviously responded to a clear change in expectations over the summer and I have credited him elsewhere for this. I thought he actually had a good game last weekend against the English.
However his performances in a green shirt over the last year have largely been forgettable. I cant remember him making the gain line or better in a single game in the last 6Ns. As Maxine Wrong Grits points out, the requirements have stepped up beyond athleticism, which is what is going to kill Devon Toner's chances of progressing further.

Disagree - I think the Irish pack are absolutely lost without him.

He is actually the one single Munster player I would put into a first choice Leinster XV (although C Murray may change that over the next 6 months).

profitius · 04-09-2011 12:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not enough for the modern game. You need locks with hands like 12s, and need some form of creativity from your forwards. We have almost nobody in this mould in any of our 4 provincial teams playing in the second row.

rockman15 wrote: »

Only of late (the last 3 games) has he really done any athletic work. He has obviously responded to a clear change in expectations over the summer and I have credited him elsewhere for this. I thought he actually had a good game last weekend against the English.
However his performances in a green shirt over the last year have largely been forgettable. I cant remember him making the gain line or better in a single game in the last 6Ns. As Maxine Wrong Grits points out, the requirements have stepped up beyond athleticism, which is what is going to kill Devon Toner's chances of progressing further.

The modern game is fast paced especially at the highest level so it needs athletic forwards to be able to keep up with the play.

Having a second row who can pass like a 12 is a bonus but like props, hookers and every other position they need to be able to do the basics well. POC does the basics as good as anyone.

POC has been injured alot over the past year or so too but still give the team a lift when hes there. DOC on the other hand is lucky to be starting IMO.

rockman15 · 04-09-2011 9:59am

profitius wrote: »

The modern game is fast paced especially at the highest level so it needs athletic forwards to be able to keep up with the play.

Having a second row who can pass like a 12 is a bonus but like props, hookers and every other position they need to be able to do the basics well. POC does the basics as good as anyone.

POC has been injured alot over the past year or so too but still give the team a lift when hes there. DOC on the other hand is lucky to be starting IMO.

you have to ask why its fast paced though in order to see what I mean. The speed is now coming from continuity and less men committed to breakdowns. So your traditional lock will need to shed a few kilos and then spend a lot of time working on his hands. If we continue to play in the 2006-2008 version of rugby we will never consistently get within a try of NZ or Australia. The basics of the game have changed and requirement for players have now shifted upward.

On your lineout and scrum point there should be less lineouts as teams aim to retain possession as a form of defense. I'll be looking at the stats post RWC to check this. The field position and percentages game is now played with garryowens so you can compete and force a knock on if lucky. Lineouts have become such a steady platform for some teams you're just giving the ball away to them. The garryowen at least allows you're players certain advantages over the opposition, if executed correctly.

jacothelad · 04-09-2011 10:22am

shuffol wrote: »

If you were to compile a list of the top 5 or 10 performances by Irish locks in a season Tuohy and O'Connell would more or less have a monopoly on it. If Tuohy can develop some consistency he could be the answer to our prayers, unfortunately I think he could also do a Ryan Caldwell and disappear from the scene altogether.

Caldwell is a pretty talented player but with dogdoo for brains. Maybe his stint at Bath will teach him the discipline he lacks. If it did, Ireland would have a very good player. He is good in the line-out, runs well and has good hands. Tuohy has more of all of those things and isn't a penalty magnet. He won't go the way of TF70.