Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

So what happened against wales? Our backrow had the ball something like 38 times and only made 45m's? That's downright pathetic.

Take away the Oz result and we beat some ordinary teams and over the last year that's all we managed. We love to hype Irish players but did we buy into the hype a bit too much?

If you're trying to say our back row didn't perform well these past few weeks then I just can't understand it. It wasn't Irish hype, it was coming from all corners.

And firstly, that stat is useless. Secondly, there is actually more to back row play than ball carrying. And finally, we weren't beaten against Wales because of our back row, as much as George Hook would have you believe. Gordon D'Arcy, Ronan O'Gara, Conor Murray and Keith Earls making defensive errors and our inability to score from 5 metres out were far bigger roleplayers than breakdown dominance.

shuffol

WeeBushy wrote: »

No he wasn't, he played a completely different game to them, and to what we are used to of him. That doesn't mean he played poorly, just differently. But still damned effective. We had SOB and Ferris making the big runs, but no one to do the work at the break down so Heaslip stood up and put in some monumental shifts there. You can't use one example of a poor choice to carry as indicative of his whole WC.

No one is giving out about O'Gara's or Ross' lack of ball carrying during the WC because that isn't their role. Same way ball carrying wasn't Healslip's role at this WC. It has been in the past, and probably will be in the future, but he had other things to be doing because of who was in the back row with him. And did them damned well, I might add.

Its true that he did more dirty work than is the norm for a no.8 but he still got his hands on the ball a fair bit and when he did he made very little impact with it, thats not because he was too preoccupied with hitting rucks but more because that part of his game is underperforming at the minute.

Amazotheamazing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you're trying to say our back row didn't perform well these past few weeks then I just can't understand it. It wasn't Irish hype, it was coming from all corners.

And firstly, that stat is useless. Secondly, there is actually more to back row play than ball carrying. And finally, we weren't beaten against Wales because of our back row, as much as George Hook would have you believe. Gordon D'Arcy, Ronan O'Gara, Conor Murray and Keith Earls making defensive errors and our inability to score from 5 metres out were far bigger roleplayers than breakdown dominance.

Actually no, I bought the hype fully, I genuinely believed I'd never seen any of our backrowers play as well as Ferris and SOB did in the past month, but looking back pragmatically, who did we actually beat? A half injured Australia, Italy and some minnows.

I think all three were shown up against Wales. Very hard for backs to do anything with no go forward ball from the forwards, or with little or no space created by the forwards. We lost that game offensively as much as defensively.

danthefan

We spent something like 10 minutes in the first half alone in the Wales 22, we had more possession overall, and we won a higher percentage of our own rucks than Wales did in the QF. We had the possession and field position to win the game about 3 times over.

The reasons we lost were our attacking gameplan seemed to be just to shovel it to the guy one out from the ruck, win the ball back, rinse and repeat, which will get you nowhere. Secondly we made some horrible defensive errors (D'Arcy and Healy/Earls). Not to mention the very poor performance from our halfbacks.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

We spent something like 10 minutes in the first half alone in the Wales 22, we had more possession overall, and we won a higher percentage of our own rucks than Wales did in the QF. We had the possession and field position to win the game about 3 times over.

But not the right type of ball, how else do you explain our backrow's inability to make ground with the ball? And to be fair, if the three backrowers can only make 45m's, that tells you far more about the game.

irishbucsfan

shuffol wrote: »

Its true that he did more dirty work than is the norm for a no.8 but he still got his hands on the ball a fair bit and when he did he made very little impact with it, thats not because he was too preoccupied with hitting rucks but more because that part of his game is underperforming at the minute.

I personally think that the gameplan had become more orientated about getting the ball in the hands of SOB and Ferris than Heaslip.

Sure he got opportunities in open play, but the team manufactures opportunities for SOB based on his incredible ball carrying ability. I think when he's not in the team those opportunities go to Heaslip instead, but when he is in the team Heaslip has to resort to taking the ball in less favourable situtions. Ferris on the other hand always takes the ball in dodgy situations and still manages to make about 5 yards each time because hes an absolute beast. I don't think Heaslip has that same ability.

For an example of what I mean look at the video above. First receiver takes the ball and spreads it looking intentionally for Heaslip who has targetted a terrible defender intentionally. That's very much a planned play. With this back row, it's SOB getting that sort of targeted ball and making the highlights, because he's better at it.

I think if people are waiting to see Heaslip do what he did before SOB broke into the team and during the time SOB had the broken leg, they'll be waiting a very long time. Heaslip meanwhile is still bringing the same excellent ground game, leadership and work rate to the team and we're really lucky to have him. Those rugby fans who can appreciate all aspects of back row play will be as excited as ever to watch our back row (Leinster and Irelands) play rugby.

thebaz

by the standards heaslip set a year ago , he was very ordinary this WC -

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

But not the right type of ball, how else do you explain our backrow's inability to make ground with the ball? And to be fair, if the three backrowers can only make 45m's, that tells you far more about the game.

Not the right type of ball? What the hell does that even mean? And what does it tell us about the game? You've really said nothing here.

thebaz

is jennings not good eneogh for international rugby ? or just out of favour with kidney ?

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Actually no, I bought the hype fully, I genuinely believed I'd never seen any of our backrowers play as well as Ferris and SOB did in the past month, but looking back pragmatically, who did we actually beat? A half injured Australia, Italy and some minnows.

I think all three were shown up against Wales. Very hard for backs to do anything with no go forward ball from the forwards, or with little or no space created by the forwards. We lost that game offensively as much as defensively.

Italy have a great back row. Berg, Zanni and Parisse. Very tought to beat and we did it. Oz were missing Pocock sure, but I still reckon we're better than them. We more than matched up to Wales at the breakdown. Russia and the Americans are minnows so no contest. Don't see what more you wanted from them.

I don't agree with your reading of that game at all. We had plenty of ball, we had plenty of territory, our backs were just unable to do anything with it and most of the time looked like they weren't sure what they were even trying to do. Our half backs were completely incompetent, our back line was toothless.

George Hook thought we were beaten in the pack. Therefore we weren't. QED :pac: (Honestly I think we weren't, apart from some iffy scrummaging).

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

Not the right type of ball? What the hell does that even mean? And what does it tell us about the game? You've really said nothing here.

Ok, so we have loads of possession, and loads of time in their 22, but we can't make ground, and you think it's the backs that lost that game? At risk of saying the obvious, where was the space for the backs to attack if the forwards are effectively static? Say what you like but Gatland shut down our backrow.

danthefan

thebaz wrote: »

is jennings not good eneogh for international rugby ? or just out of favour with kidney ?

I think he had a golden opportunity against France in the warmups and he was very poor. I couldn't see any justification for having him in ahead of SOB, Ferris or Healip.

profitius

The Welsh targeted SOB and Ferris because they knew Ireland rely on them too much. They kept tackling them around the legs and Ireland kept doing the same thing. When Shane Williams holds SOB up over the line you know its not going to be your day.

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

is jennings not good eneogh for international rugby ? or just out of favour with kidney ?

As a massive Jennings fan I'd love to say he's out of favour, but I fear he's just not good enough.

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ok, so we have loads of possession, and loads of time in their 22, but we can't make ground, and you think it's the backs that lost that game? At risk of saying the obvious, where was the space for the backs to attack if the forwards are effectively static? Say what you like but Gatland shut down our backrow.

We couldn't make ground, because as I just said, we were just passing it to the guy one out from the ruck, it's the easiest thing in the world to defend. There was nobody taking the ball at pace, no angles being run, no offloading, nothing, from anyone. It was how the entire team played. Points to an issue of gameplan.

thebaz

danthefan wrote: »

I think he had a golden opportunity against France in the warmups and he was very poor. I couldn't see any justification for having him in ahead of SOB, Ferris or Healip.

not good eneogh for bench ??

irish rugby badly needs an open side , I'm not sure ryan is an out and out 7 , more a hybrid like o'brien

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ok, so we have loads of possession, and loads of time in their 22, but we can't make ground, and you think it's the backs that lost that game? At risk of saying the obvious, where was the space for the backs to attack if the forwards are effectively static? Say what you like but Gatland shut down our backrow.

Is your logic that when the backs do well it's because of great back play but when they can't score it's because the forwards gave them no space? Is it not possible that they had space but were so poorly coached that they just couldn't take advantage of it?!

I mean, I suppose we couldn't score a try against the Ozzies either... feckin hell our back row must have been dominated there

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

We couldn't make ground, because as I just said, we were just passing it to the guy one out from the ruck, it's the easiest thing in the world to defend. There was nobody taking the ball at pace, no angles being run, no offloading, nothing, from anyone. It was how the entire team played.

But our backrow (and Healy) are our primary carriers, so you agree with me?

In the other games, Ferris and SOB made space playing that limited style.

totallegend

Not to be back-seat modding, but this is the Leinster thread, there are a million other threads in which we can discuss the performances of people at the World Cup.

Cheers.

Amazotheamazing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is your logic that when the backs do well it's because of great back play but when they can't score it's because the forwards gave them no space? Is it not possible that they had space but were so poorly coached that they just couldn't take advantage of it?!

I mean, I suppose we couldn't score a try against the Ozzies either... feckin hell our back row must have been dominated there

No, backs can only ever play well when their forwards make space for them to do so.

There's a handful of teams that can win with a beaten pack but even Leinster needed to get a serious pack to allow their stellar backs to really shine, and they've arguably the best backline in Europe over the last decade.

Podge_irl

Heaslip wasn't poor in the world cup, but he wasn't exactly phenomenal either. I look forward to seeing him back in Leinster colours as I think the SOB/Jennings/Heaslip backrow will suit him better.

thebaz

totallegend wrote: »

Not to be back-seat modding, but this is the Leinster thread, there are a million other threads in which we can discuss the performances of people at the World Cup.

Cheers.

bar ferris , all the backrowers discussed are leinster - leinster will need an open side successor , i assume ryan is earmarcked for it

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, backs can only ever play well when their forwards make space for them to do so.

There's a handful of teams that can win with a beaten pack but even Leinster needed to get a serious pack to allow their stellar backs to really shine, and they've arguably the best backline in Europe over the last decade.

The fact our backs didn't play well isn't evidence that our forwards didn't. Yes our backs were crap, but our pack weren't beaten. They achieved parity at least, which was clear.

Backs CAN play well when forwards clear the way for them, which ours did, however in the same situation backs CAN also play terribly, which ours did. Now with a fresh set of ideas we'll finally be able to take advantage of our impressive pack.

The Welsh stopped SOB and Fez carrying the ball, but they didn't take possession from us, and if we had anything like a functioning back line or competent half backs we would have been able to rely on something else as an attacking threat.

CouchSmart

Heaslip didn't have a bad WC. That said he didn't have as big an impact as he probably would have liked. Was it tactics or form, we'll never. He's still one of the smartest operators in the Irish team and a cert for the Leinster and Ireland jersey. I'm always much more confident when he plays. Can't wait to have him back in a Leinster jersey, though he might end up being one of the last players back seeing as he played in all the WC games.

With regards Jennings, for me he remains one of Leinster's most important players. His leadership, defensive smarts and breakdown work is one of the main reason's we've won 3 trophies in 4 years. I don't see how anyone can judge if he's up to international standard or not as he's never been given a proper go at it. Being asked to step in against France after being told you're not going to the WC, after just coming back from an arm break with a very short preseason and coming into an under-performing team and not having an impact therefore he's not and never will be international standard doesn't make sense to me. That being said, EOS and DK have never been fans of the classic, subtle openside so I don't think he'll ever get a proper chance to prove himself at that level. As a Leinster fan though I'm delighted we have him as he excels in the HEC.

wixfjord

To me, it's very sad that a guy like Heaslip, who has been immense for both Leinster and Ireland for the first part of his career, could be given so much stick for a slight downturn in form, and have to take more stick for doing his job and allowing two better carriers to hog the limelight (in a good way obv.)

He's always been a favourite player of mine, and the consistent name calling by opposition fans (themselves Irish, and supposed to be supporting Ireland), as well as critics like Hook is despicable imo.

I'd expect a big season from one of the best 8s in the world.

Big Nelly

wixfjord wrote: »

To me, it's very sad that a guy like Heaslip, who has been immense for both Leinster and Ireland for the first part of his career, could be given so much stick for a slight downturn in form, and have to take more stick for doing his job and allowing two better carriers to hog the limelight (in a good way obv.)

He's always been a favourite player of mine, and the consistent name calling by opposition fans (themselves Irish, and supposed to be supporting Ireland), as well as critics like Hook is despicable imo.

I'd expect a big season from one of the best 8s in the world.

I can't wait till I see him this year in Rabo/HC, he will be amazing again just to show everyone!!

wixfjord

From today's Indo:
www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/odriscoll-fears-the-end-2909834.html

Have said it time and time agin, this guy is an absolute class act, he'll surely go into coaching when he finishes.

wicklowwonder

wixfjord wrote: »

From today's Indo:
www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/odriscoll-fears-the-end-2909834.html

Have said it time and time agin, this guy is an absolute class act, he'll surely go into coaching when he finishes.

I would be afraid he would end up on a Sky Sports sofa. I can see him moving to London as his wife seems to spend most of her time there and then take a Sky Sports pension. I hope he doesn't as Sky really do have a way of turning people in Aviva Premiership fanatics and I would like to see Dric stay around Ireland but I wouldn't be surprised. Ideally he would take over from one G Hook on RTE...... Brent, Conor O'Shea and Dric on a panel would be will worth watching. We would need a new guy asking questions though!!

profitius

wixfjord wrote: »

To me, it's very sad that a guy like Heaslip, who has been immense for both Leinster and Ireland for the first part of his career, could be given so much stick for a slight downturn in form, and have to take more stick for doing his job and allowing two better carriers to hog the limelight (in a good way obv.)

He's always been a favourite player of mine, and the consistent name calling by opposition fans (themselves Irish, and supposed to be supporting Ireland), as well as critics like Hook is despicable imo.

I'd expect a big season from one of the best 8s in the world.

Any player who doesn't live up to expectations get a bit of stick. DOC, ROG etc. Its nothing like the abuse directed at Mushy Buckley or TOL.

wixfjord

profitius wrote: »

Any player who doesn't live up to expectations get a bit of stick. DOC, ROG etc. Its nothing like the abuse directed at Mushy Buckley or TOL.

Ah no, this isn't about not living up to expectations, this is a personal vendetta for some. Comparing his dip in form to the other two you've mentioned isn't really comparing like with like, and DOC and ROG have got nothing, nothing like the amount of media coverage which Heaslip's supposed performance (again, I'd debate that they were poor too) got.
In fact, ROG seems to be immune to criticism in some parts.