Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

.ak

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

So you're against pilering Connacht of their players (Hagan and Carr) or young talent from other provinces (Cronin)..

Hmm, I think this debate is centered around Provinces poaching from other provinces academy development. It was mentioned that Munster should look at developing their own before poaching Leinster's academy...

IIRC Hagan and Carr are both products of the Leinster academy. Carr definately played for Leinster at some stage before Connacht. And Cronin was educated in Munster and opted to go to Connacht. Not really the same as Munster looking at the likes of Conway.

AtItAllDayRef

molloyjh wrote: »

Whatever about Macken I wouldn't think moving Kearney Jnr would be a good move. He's getting plenty of game time at Leinster this season and is very close to making the HEC squad. The likes of Macken and Hudson probably won't feature much for another 2 seasons so there's something to be said for them I suppose.

Where would Munster be most in need though? They seems to have guys coming through in the back line at the moment, and if I were a Munster fan I'd rather see that talent get fostered than bringing in someone else. It seems to me that the area they are lacking most is actually in the tight five. Both first XV props are NIQs, there are serious question marks over the hookers they have available, POC & DOC are getting on and while Ryan seems to be doing well there what other second row options are there other than Nagle, who isn't really featuring?

IMO Munster have guys like Foley and Nagle who would benefit from a move away for a season or two on loan. Also if TOL and stringer were to stay next season then the same could be said for Duncan Williams. Some of the younger Leinster centres could be used in Munster instead of getting a short term player like Chambers.

At present Munster are producing loads of second rows, Nagle, Foley, Hayes, DOC2.0 is being converted to blindside etc Leinster are struggling to find second rows. Leinster are producing loads of centres a position that Munster have traditionally struggled with. Loans or transfers between the provinces make sense.

WeeBushy

padser wrote: »

I think Ruddock might have his sights set a little higher than just making a HEC team (which, in fairness, Connacht could have offered him this season!).

If he is genuinely good enough to make it at Leinster, he will do so (Schmidt doesn't hold back our youngsters). If not, I would suspect he will head towards a team that looks to have genuine prospects of winning the HEC (if that's in Ireland I would argue that Ulster is more likely in 2 to 3 years rather than Munster).

He would be competing with Wannenberg and Ferris up north, not much better than Heaslip and SOB.

I seriously hopes he stays. But if he only signed a 1 year contract to see where he was at, I would be slightly worried. He doesn't seem to have improved on last season in terms of performance of appearances. Not that he's been bad at all, but he doesn't seem to have kicked on from a very promising season last year.

ambid

padser wrote: »

I think Ruddock might have his sights set a little higher than just making a HEC team (which, in fairness, Connacht could have offered him this season!).

If he is genuinely good enough to make it at Leinster, he will do so (Schmidt doesn't hold back our youngsters). If not, I would suspect he will head towards a team that looks to have genuine prospects of winning the HEC (if that's in Ireland I would argue that Ulster is more likely in 2 to 3 years rather than Munster).

Seriously?

molloyjh

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

So you're against pilering Connacht of their players (Hagan and Carr) or young talent from other provinces (Cronin). So what age according to you is it allowed then to swap young players? Its a pro game and when a player is out of contract or coming to the end of his current contract he can listen to any offer thats put in front of him and decide whats in his best interest, not some message board fan with an idealistic provincially tinted view on it.

Munsters recruitment has been poor specifically in signing (or not signing as has been the case) IQ players from other provinces or abroad as Leinster have done to bolster their problem areas in the tight five and scrum half.

I think the main difference here is that Hagan and Carr are both originally from Leinster and went to Connacht with a view to coming back east in a few years. Looking at some of the others (e.g. Ross and Reddan) they weren't wanted at Munster so it's not like they were ever "pilfered" by another province. They were let go by Munster and later came back to Ireland through Leinster. There's no reason Munster couldn't have gone after Cronin either after releasing him to Connacht. What I'd be more curious to know is how many non-Leinster players did we "pilfer" directly from their native province?

All that aside, as it's really not that relevant, we'd need to identify the areas of need in each province*. For Leinster it's the second-row. We currently have Healy and Cronin (and a soon to be naturalised Strauss) in the front-row with Hagan being developed and Ross who will be there for a while. We should be covered there for the next few years at least. Outside of that the only area of possible concern is SH. With Reddan and Boss there for the next couple of years and young McGrath coming through we might not be too badly off there though.

EDIT: * - I see you did that while I was posting. So you're talking 1 or 2 centres and that's about it? What about OH? ROG won't be about for much longer. Will there be a back-up to Keatley when he goes?

.ak

vinny chase wrote: »

But, FWIW, I don't necessarily think it was a good thing for Irish rugby that these players left Connacht to come to Leinster this year. I'd rather see them playing week in week out and getting Irish recognition if their performances warrant it.

I think Hagan's move was a good one. He'll get the right training and conditioning with Leinster to possibly get him a spot on the international team - which can only be a good thing for Irish rugby considering our TH situation.

AtItAllDayRef

vinny chase wrote: »

For starters; it's a bit disingenuous to describe Jamie Hagan and Fionn Carr as 'Connacht's players'. They were Leinster lads, who were developed in Leinster. Granted they got a fantastic opportunity with Connacht; but they themselves both desperately wanted to return to Leinster.

But, FWIW, I don't necessarily think it was a good thing for Irish rugby that these players left Connacht to come to Leinster this year. I'd rather see them playing week in week out and getting Irish recognition if their performances warrant it.

I wouldn't be opposed to a swap deal where Leinster trade an outside back for a second row (like Nagle). That wasn't what you were advocating though; you were suggesting McGahan get on the phone to young lads on the fringes of the Leinster squad and try to lure them away. There is nothing reciprocal in that.

Munster's development of young players in problem areas will continue to struggle as long as they keep trying to spend their way out of the problem. For further reference see: Rua Tipoki, Lifemi Mafi, Jean de Villiers, Will Chambers, Paul Warwick, etc etc.

I haven't included Howlett (or Christian Cullen-though that experiment wasn't successful) because I do believe there should be scope for signing headline talents when they become available. The same is the case for years in Leinster; with poor quality imports not addressing the issues we had; issues they are now seeking to tackle.

And the issue with the Leinster tight five continues - White, Shawe, Cronin, Strauss, EOD, Skyes, Browne, VDM all listed this season. For what ever reason Leinster aren't developing tight five forwards and Munster aren't developing back five players. This may change slowly but in the mean time it makes more sense to loan or swap players to get more game time, help with the NIQ restrictions and reductions coming and assisting the national team.

profitius

I've been very impressed by Madigan. He is a good attacking threat and the type of player I'd like to see developed more in Ireland. James O'Connor showed at the weekend that a good pass can open up tight defenses and Madigan looks to be a similar sort of player.

profitius

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

And the issue with the Leinster tight five continues - White, Shawe, Cronin, Strauss, EOD, Skyes, Browne, VDM all listed this season. For what ever reason Leinster aren't developing tight five forwards and Munster aren't developing back five players. This may change slowly but in the mean time it makes more sense to loan or swap players to get more game time, help with the NIQ restrictions and reductions coming and assisting the national team.

In fairness to them, they have been developing tight 5 forwards but the players have not come through yet. I agree with you about swapping more players around but maybe that could make other provinces lazy ie if Munster was getting Leinster centers maybe they wouldn't be trying to solve their own problem at bringing centers through.

Foxtrol

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

So what age according to you is it allowed then to swap young players? Its a pro game and when a player is out of contract or coming to the end of his current contract he can listen to any offer thats put in front of him and decide whats in his best interest, not some message board fan with an idealistic provincially tinted view on it.

Sometimes what is best for a player is not what they think it is and it wouldn’t be right for a province to be forced to play a player who they don’t deem to be physically ready just because another province has offered them first team rugby. It would be easy for a potential star player to believe he is ready for consistant first team rugby when he is simply not physically developed enough and/or needs to be eased in slowly. Rugby is not like soccer as a player might not only look out of their depth but can also ship very serious injuries. I honestly wouldn't be 100% confident that Jones' fastracking to the first team by moving to Munster has not played a part in his terrible injury record since his move.

tolosenc

padser wrote: »

a team that looks to have genuine prospects of winning the HEC (if that's in Ireland I would argue that Ulster is more likely in 2 to 3 years rather than Munster).

You're going to get lynched for that once the Red Army see it!

vinny chase

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

And the issue with the Leinster tight five continues - White, Shawe, Cronin, Strauss, EOD, Skyes, Browne, VDM all listed this season. For what ever reason Leinster aren't developing tight five forwards and Munster aren't developing back five players. This may change slowly but in the mean time it makes more sense to loan or swap players to get more game time, help with the NIQ restrictions and reductions coming and assisting the national team.

Leinster's tight five is in better shape than Munster's in terms of relative age and Irish qualification. Munster's first choice front row is book-ended by two South Africans. The two predominant first choice second rows are in their thirties, and the guys immediately behind them (Mick O'Driscoll and even Donncha Ryan) are no spring chickens either.

Leinster have Cian Healy, Sean Cronin, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, a soon to be naturalised Richardt Strauss, Jack McGrath, Tadhg Furlong, etc all within their system. In the second row Devin Toner is having a great season, and young guys like Mark Flanagan, Ciaran Ruddock and Ben Marshall are there too. They've also launched initiatives like Route 6'6' to try and target and develop this position within the province.

vinny chase

profitius wrote: »

In fairness to them, they have been developing tight 5 forwards but the players have not come through yet. I agree with you about swapping more players around but maybe that could make other provinces lazy ie if Munster was getting Leinster centers maybe they wouldn't be trying to solve their own problem at bringing centers through.

This was essentially the point I've repeatedly tried to make here.

There is no reason that a young lad born in Cork or Limerick or Cashel shouldn't be capable of being a good centre or full back, just like there's no reason a young lad from Sandymount or Carlow or Mullingar shouldn't be a good second row.

The distinction in both provinces over the past ten years is a cultural one; there was always a perception (which I don't necessarily agree with) and a glorification of the tight five in Munster rugby (guys like the Bull, POC, the Claw, Keith Wood, Jerry Flannery etc bear this out) and outside backs in Leinster (Drico, D'arcy, Shaggy, Denis Hickie, etc) and that feeds into development. Youngsters want to do what they see being glorified in their provinces imo. The best thing for Munster rugby would be the continued development of their own young promising backs like Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Danny Barnes, Luke O'Dea etc.

molloyjh

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

And the issue with the Leinster tight five continues - White, Shawe, Cronin, Strauss, EOD, Skyes, Browne, VDM all listed this season. For what ever reason Leinster aren't developing tight five forwards and Munster aren't developing back five players. This may change slowly but in the mean time it makes more sense to loan or swap players to get more game time, help with the NIQ restrictions and reductions coming and assisting the national team.

EOD is gone and White is a short term signing to allow Hagan get up to speed (although I wouldn't mind if we held onto him either as he's looked good). Tbf Munsters first choice props are both NIQs. Leinster have Healy and are working on Hagan (who should come good for us). We have Jack McGrath coming through now too. JHW was looking like the real deal at hooker but there were apparently off the field issues there. There's also a few in the Academy too (e.g. Jack O'Connell who got some game time with the senior side during the RWC). We're not overflowing with talent in the front-row, but there is some there.

I don't think any of the provinces are ever going to be in a position where they won't rely to a degree on some outside talent.

AtItAllDayRef

The movement of young players just out of the academy is already happening. Just because its to Connacht doesn't mean its not real - Cronin, Hagan, Keatley, POD etc as well as slightly older guys like NOC, Anderson, McCrea and its happened in the past as well with Buckley, Fla, etc. A more structured and all inclusive policy for all provinces as i suggested with a loan system would be much better for the national side.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Another issue is that Connacht can't attract players out of the academy sometimes. Morris Keating and JHW all headed off to England this season from Leinster.

molloyjh

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

A more structured and all inclusive policy for all provinces as i suggested with a loan system would be much better for the national side.

And probably the provinces too. As long as they get the balance right I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. We'd just want to be careful that we're not causing more long-term issues to players/provinces/academies in the process.

danthefan

2nd row has to be a real worry for Leinster. There is genuinely no decent youngsters there at all. I think we're covered pretty much everywhere else. Yes, we have some NIQ props, but that's hardly unusual. The first choice props are Irish and happen to be first choice for Ireland also. Considering how much Pro12 they miss it's almost impossible not to have NIQ props.

smurphy29

Leinster are the only province with an indigenous, homegrown prop who is first choice: Cian Healy. The fact is that Ireland negelected the propping situation for years, and it is not going to rectify itself overnight, as getting props up to even Pro12 standard takes a while. We were thoroughly bailed out by Mike Ross, who was never on the IRFU's radar, and even then, management were reticent to pick him until the situation became dire.

smurphy29

danthefan wrote: »

2nd row has to be a real worry for Leinster. There is genuinely no decent youngsters there at all. I think we're covered pretty much everywhere else. Yes, we have some NIQ props, but that's hardly unusual. The first choice props are Irish and happen to be first choice for Ireland also. Considering how much Pro12 they miss it's almost impossible not to have NIQ props.

This is true to an extent, but on the basis of this season's improvement I would argue that Devin Toner can go on to be a HEC player for the foreseeable future. He looks to be mastering how to use his disctinctive frame, and has plenty of attributes that should make him a fine second row.

Podge_irl

There are only two locks in the academy and I think Ciaran Ruddock is going to end up in the backrow. I know nothing about Marshall, but he's only 6'4 as well. It's a stunning gap in the Leinster talent conveyor belt.

WeeBushy

danthefan wrote: »

2nd row has to be a real worry for Leinster. There is genuinely no decent youngsters there at all. I think we're covered pretty much everywhere else. Yes, we have some NIQ props, but that's hardly unusual. The first choice props are Irish and happen to be first choice for Ireland also. Considering how much Pro12 they miss it's almost impossible not to have NIQ props.

I'd agree. No Irish team is capable of having an all IQ front row squad and be able to compete at the top level. There aren't that many Irish props. If we want to compete at the top we need to bring in players. On the front row issue, I think Leinster have the balance right anyway. Our starting front row is Irish (or soon to be IQ), backed up by some good foreigners with youngsters coming through that aren't quite ready for regular Pro12 rugby.

2nd row is an issue, but out of 15 positions only having problems bringing through players in two of them (4 and 5) isn't half bad. As long as they continue to try and produce 2nd rows (route 6'6" etc.) I don't mind NIQ being brought in. If the talent just isn't there then you have to look elsewhere if we want to stay competitive.

Hype710

Marshall will probably end up at No 8 as he has impressed there, but his future may lie outside Leinster. Mark Flanagan is a promising young lock and there was Mick Kearney who opted to join Connacht instead. I don't think its as big a worry as people make out, Sykes and Toner could potentially make a very good partnership and they are both only mid twenties.

AtItAllDayRef

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are only two locks in the academy and I think Ciaran Ruddock is going to end up in the backrow. I know nothing about Marshall, but he's only 6'4 as well. It's a stunning gap in the Leinster talent conveyor belt.

Scrum half and hooker are as well. Who was the last Leinster academy player to get an international cap at scrum half?

smurphy29

Sykes looks like a dud so far! Though it is early to say, and we have seen lads in the past that made little impact in their first season only to take off in the second. But he does look pants.

durkadurka

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Scrum half and hooker are as well. Who was the last Leinster academy player to get an international cap at scrum half?

I'm thinking Niall Hogan or Alain Rolland!

danthefan

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Scrum half and hooker are as well. Who was the last Leinster academy player to get an international cap at scrum half?

With Strauss and Cronin we're alright at hooker. I know neither are Leinster developed but tbh that doesn't make a difference really, they're both young and will be more than good enough for the next 5, 6, 7 years if they stay that long. It's not an area of concern.

You're right about scrum half though. Luke McGrath hopefully will live up to the hype, and the management obviously see something in Cooney.

michelledoh

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Scrum half and hooker are as well. Who was the last Leinster academy player to get an international cap at scrum half?

Ah, but we have scrum half options coming through, and the messiah is on his way aswell. Also, POS or Du Toit may come good.

Scally was last one I think.

Hooker we're set for the forseeable future, to the point where we let JHW go, even though he looked very good in his limited appearances last year.

Second row is the only place where we're stuggling, and even then there's certainly scope for a good NIQ. Berquist and possibly White or HVDM will be gone next year.

AtItAllDayRef

danthefan wrote: »

With Strauss and Cronin we're alright at hooker. I know neither are Leinster developed but tbh that doesn't make a difference really, they're both young and will be more than good enough for the next 5, 6, 7 years if they stay that long. It's not an area of concern.

You're right about scrum half though. Luke McGrath hopefully will live up to the hype, and the management obviously see something in Cooney.

I agree but Strauss and Cronin are excellent players but this conversation is about what the academy is producing. Mullet was the last Leinster hooker to get a cap. I also think prior to Sexton the last outhalf to get a cap was back in the 90's.

michelledoh

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

I agree but Strauss and Cronin are excellent players but this conversation is about what the academy is producing. Mullet was the last Leinster hooker to get a cap. I also think prior to Sexton the last outhalf to get a cap was back in the 90's.

Tom Sexton also on the way, and we're well set for 10, even after the awful McKinley thing, with Reid and particularly Madigan.

Sexton has a good 6/7 years left in him too.