Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Tox56

For him, in hindsight, it wasn't a great move. He is getting plenty of gametime, but not starting the really important games. However, at the time you can understand the move. He was going back to his home province, European Champions, and he was playing some of the best rugby of any Irish winger. Why would he stay at Connacht when that move presented itself?

I think if he hadn't come, he would have always wondered 'what if?'. Hopefully Conway can really announce his arrival in a big way next season, but will make it even harder for Carr.

Who knows, the competition could make him work on the defensive aspect to his game, whilst keeping his undoubted attacking ability. He is still an excellent player to have.

irishbucsfan

He's actually delighted with the move in fairness. He has himself a Heineken cup medal. He played less but he was told from day one what he had to work on and he's done it.

Id imagine he'll be hoping to push himself into 20-30 games next season.

He's not nearly the most complete winger in the squad but as an attacking threat he is absolutely lethal.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's actually delighted with the move in fairness. He has himself a Heineken cup medal. He played less but he was told from day one what he had to work on and he's done it.

Id imagine he'll be hoping to push himself into 20-30 games next season.

He's not nearly the most complete winger in the squad but as an attacking threat he is absolutely lethal.

Yeah without knowing what's going on behind the scenes it's impossible to know. Look at Rossy for example. First season back and he got 8 starts with 13 sub appearances compared to Carrs 16 starts and 5 sub appearances. And now Rossy is first choice for province and country and one of the most important players in the country! Schmidts use of rotation does water down the point somewhat (along with it being RWC season) but you get the jist...

ambid

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah without knowing what's going on behind the scenes it's impossible to know. Look at Rossy for example. First season back and he got 8 starts with 13 sub appearances compared to Carrs 16 starts and 5 sub appearances. And now Rossy is first choice for province and country and one of the most important players in the country! Schmidts use of rotation does water down the point somewhat (along with it being RWC season) but you get the jist...

You're right about Ross. I very much hope that the coaches can achieve the same dramatic improvement with Hagan (18 games including 9 starts last year). Next season will surely be crucial for him. I really hope he can prove he can reach the standard which Leinster need.

Morf

ambid wrote: »

You're right about Ross. I very much hope that the coaches can achieve the same dramatic improvement with Hagan (18 games including 9 starts last year). Next season will surely be crucial for him. I really hope he can prove he can reach the standard which Leinster need.

He's aiming for above international standard I think.

durkadurka

Ross was coming off making the premiership team of the season though .

Hagan has gone backwards this year. I really hope the whole ' working on the strength and conditioning' thing is true.

danthefan

Jackman outlined in his book that Cheika had a strict order of props that season, it was 1. Stan 2. Healy 3. CJ 4. Ross. Ross never got a proper chance. Even in that SF against Toulouse the only time our scrum didn't get minced was when Ross was on the field. Cheika had a poor season that season.

Tox56

durkadurka wrote: »

Ross was coming off making the premiership team of the season though .

Hagan has gone backwards this year. I really hope the whole ' working on the strength and conditioning' thing is true.

I think they are definitely working on getting him up to standard both fitness and scrummaging wise, I doubt he's just been sitting on his arse for the last few months.

He's still young and there is no rush, he won't reach his prime as a prop for several years and I hope they take their time to make sure he will be as good as he can be.

Hype710

If Hagan continues to get destroyed at scrum time in the early part of next season I can see the management slowly introducing Moore and Furlong who are both probably superior prospects.

irishbucsfan

Martin Moore is well behind Hagan right now and Furlong is behind both. Both have great potential but that's all that is at the moment. It's really impossible to predict the future when it comes to young props. Moore is years and away from being able to start a H Cup game.

Hype710

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Martin Moore is well behind Hagan right now and Furlong is behind both. Both have great potential but that's all that is at the moment. It's really impossible to predict the future when it comes to young props. Moore is years and away from being able to start a H Cup game.

My point was that while Hagan is four and five years older than Moore and Furlong respectively, I don't believe he is that many years ahead in development. If Moore has a big pre season I think he'll be ready for more game time for the bench in the Rabo next season. His technique has looked very assured. And for the record, in the game Hagan started in the H Cup he came off at half time and shipped some heavy criticism from Joe.

Tox56

Hype710 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Martin Moore is well behind Hagan right now and Furlong is behind both. Both have great potential but that's all that is at the moment. It's really impossible to predict the future when it comes to young props. Moore is years and away from being able to start a H Cup game.

My point was that while Hagan is four and five years older than Moore and Furlong respectively, I don't believe he is that many years ahead in development. If Moore has a big pre season I think he'll be ready for more game time for the bench in the Rabo next season. His technique has looked very assured. And for the record, in the game Hagan started in the H Cup he came off at half time and shipped some heavy criticism from Joe.

I heard that criticism and I wad quite surprised, I thought Hagan coped quite well especially considering we had about 100 scrums during the Montpellier siege of our line. I thought the criticism was maybe to motivate him, how often does a coach genuinely come out and criticise a player publicly, especially odd when you consider it's not like Hagan had a real shocker or anything.

irishbucsfan

I definitely thought Hagan was shown up. He isn't H Cup standard based on this season. I don't think Moore or Furlong will be at his level in the near future though.

bamboozle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I definitely thought Hagan was shown up. He isn't H Cup standard based on this season. I don't think Moore or Furlong will be at his level in the near future though.

Furlong has missed the whole of this season gone up to April, since then he's played a few 2nds games for Clontarf. He'll be playing U20 world cup this summer and i'd expect himself, Moore, O'Conell, Merry to play a full season in the AIL next season. Season after maybe we might see them stepping up to B&I cup & maybe bench spots for Rabo games.

these lads need time to develop their game & technique, AIL exposure is the first step in that direction.

Tox56

I think Moore could be close, he looks to be an ideal size for a prop, short and stocky (obviously good technique is more important, but it's a good start). A few scums off the bench in the Rabo and we could be pleasantly surprised.

I also can't remember the Montpellier game vividly, but I do remember bring relatively satisfied that Hagan wasn't blown away, especially after so many scrums with his possible fitness issues.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I definitely thought Hagan was shown up. He isn't H Cup standard based on this season. I don't think Moore or Furlong will be at his level in the near future though.

Is Hagan's situation very similar to that of Carr, i.e. looked great at Connacht but struggling to make the step up to Leinster? Nathan White is no world beater but he looked a lot more solid than Hagan.

Moore and Furlong are good prospects but no more than that; when you look at how many Irish props have actually made the grade at HC or international level, the odds are against both of them making it...

ambid

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I definitely thought Hagan was shown up. He isn't H Cup standard based on this season. I don't think Moore or Furlong will be at his level in the near future though.

Do you think he just hasn't achieved H Cup standard this season, or do you think he doesn't have the potential to be H Cup standard at all?

GerM

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Moore could be close, he looks to be an ideal size for a prop, short and stocky (obviously good technique is more important, but it's a good start). A few scums off the bench in the Rabo and we could be pleasantly surprised.

I also can't remember the Montpellier game vividly, but I do remember bring relatively satisfied that Hagan wasn't blown away, especially after so many scrums with his possible fitness issues.

I think Moore will make it. He has a ferocious appetite for work and is a very intelligent player. Greg Feek apparently rates both Furlong and Moore quite highly and they're both making good progress in relation to their conditioning. I think we might see Moore getting a half dozen more appearances next season. Leinster are extremely cautious when it comes to bringing through props though. They will give them game time but only as much as they are ready for and prefer to have them learn in the AIL and A games.

Tim Robbins

Is there no celebration of Heineken Cup? Shame...

Tim Robbins

bamboozle wrote: »

Furlong has missed the whole of this season gone up to April, since then he's played a few 2nds games for Clontarf. He'll be playing U20 world cup this summer and i'd expect himself, Moore, O'Conell, Merry to play a full season in the AIL next season. Season after maybe we might see them stepping up to B&I cup & maybe bench spots for Rabo games.

these lads need time to develop their game & technique, AIL exposure is the first step in that direction.

Saw Furlong playing Clontarf seconds. He's a beast of a man. Fair play to New Ross youths. But too early to say how'll he do in professional rugby.

All his team mates call him Tiger.

JoeyDoh

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Saw Furlong playing Clontarf seconds. He's a beast of a man. Fair play to New Ross youths. But too early to say how'll he do in professional rugby.

All his team mates call him Tiger.

Played against him at u-17s and u-19s, he was the most athletic prop I've ever seen, he managed to step our 12 like he was a 70kg whippet. Not to mention our loosehead ended the match on the floor from the pure effort of the scrums.

Tim Robbins

JoeyDoh wrote: »

Played against him at u-17s and u-19s, he was the most athletic prop I've ever seen, he managed to step our 12 like he was a 70kg whippet. Not to mention our loosehead ended the match on the floor from the pure effort of the scrums.

I can only imagine some of the mismatches at youths level. Good jaysus. But hat's off Jamie Hagan and Furlong both youths. Healy, McGrath schools.

I am surprised some school didn't try and rob him form New Ross.

shuffol

Wonder will any Leinster props move on over the summer. Jack O'Connell seems to be behind Moore in the pecking order now despite been a year ahead, he looked very comfortable playing both sides for the u-20s.

Hagz

There's so many good young props in Leinster, odds are at least one of them will come good. McGrath, Tracy, Byrne, Furlong, Moore, Dooley. It is gonna be a while longer though before they start to emerge. Except for McGrath. He's looked good apart from the chaotic TH situation.

Hagz

shuffol wrote: »

Wonder will any Leinster props move on over the summer. Jack O'Connell seems to be behind Moore in the pecking order now despite been a year ahead, he looked very comfortable playing both sides for the u-20s.

Thing is with O'Connell though is that he seems to be developing as ambiprostorous. So that should keep him in with a shout.

Hype710

Hagz wrote: »

There's so many good young props in Leinster, odds are at least one of them will come good. McGrath, Tracy, Byrne, Furlong, Moore, Dooley. It is gonna be a while longer though before they start to emerge. Except for McGrath. He's looked good apart from the chaotic TH situation.

Who is Dooley? There's Reilly and Merrey from the U20s too and I don't know whether they will be offered Academy deals as there is already a bit of a backlog there and Byrne likely to go in straight from school. If not it would be great if they could pick up deals at the other provinces.

ray jay

Hagz wrote: »

Thing is with O'Connell though is that he seems to be developing as ambiprostorous. So that should keep him in with a shout.

Not so sure about that, with the IRB trialling 23 man international squads, the necessity for props who can play on both sides of the scrum looks likely to disappear.

ambid

shuffol wrote: »

Wonder will any Leinster props move on over the summer. Jack O'Connell seems to be behind Moore in the pecking order now despite been a year ahead, he looked very comfortable playing both sides for the u-20s.

With Leinster they're working with Feek, who is probably the best scrum coach in the country. At such a crucial stage in their development it would be a very big decision to walk away from that. Excellent coaching + AIL gametime + some B&I matches seems to me the best option for them.

As for ambiprops becoming redundant, remember this year Leinster lost two games to Ospreys (including the Grand Final) largely because they ran out of tightheads. Had there been an ambiprop on the bench Leinster would likely have the double now. They'll still be very valuable even with 23 man international squads.

Hagz

ray jay wrote: »

Not so sure about that, with the IRB trialling 23 man international squads, the necessity for props who can play on both sides of the scrum looks likely to disappear.

Good point. Slipped my mind.

Hype710 wrote: »

Who is Dooley? There's Reilly and Merrey from the U20s too and I don't know whether they will be offered Academy deals as there is already a bit of a backlog there and Byrne likely to go in straight from school. If not it would be great if they could pick up deals at the other provinces.

Peter Dooley from Offaly. He's coming through the youths system, plays with Birr. Captained the u-18 club side this year. He's a LH. Should be on the u20 side the year after next. Obviously it's a bit extreme to be discussing guys who're still playing u-18 level but there's a lot of noise being made about him and just emphasises the talent that is pouring through in terms of props.

The Byrne twins are in the academy next season but not Reilly+Merrey. They're probably in the sub-academy.

porterbelly

"Hagan has been deliberating over a return to Connacht - though as things stand, he will remain under contract to the European champions next season"

That quote is from an article in the Times today.

Does that suggest that if Leinster can find a replacement then Hagan will be released back to Connacht?