Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

sock puppet

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Pay the players the going rate in Ireland / UK for their talent, if they want to go to France to earn bigger bucks, exclude them the national team. This isn't soccer.

The salary cap in England is quite low (not sure if it includes academy players?). The top Irish players could already be the highest paid in these isles.

funky penguin

JustinDee wrote: »

Just thought I'd point out that there is no third-party in what you describe. This is between players and the IRFU, of which the provincial branches are part of.
Nothing to do with "incompetence" either.

Yes, I realise Leinster is part of the IRFU.

What I'm pointing out is that 'B' is suffering because 'A' and 'C' are in a stalemate.

It's ridiculous and it's putting Leinster in danger of losing two world-class players. And they can do nothing about it?

The 'incompetence' thing is my opinion, and I stand by it. I'm really losing faith in the IRFU, beginning with EOS's contract renewal in 2007, peaking in the ticket pricing for the AI's.

Look, I realise you're in a position whereby you see far more than we can, but this is how I see the IRFU, and they're doing sweet-****-all to change my opinion of them. Some days, I wish a multi-millionaire would buy the Leinster brand off the IRFU. (then I get sense..... :P )

porterbelly

The IRFU are blaming the fact they can't offer Sexton and Heaslip what they're looking for because
1. Paying back the for the Aviva
2. Loss from Autumn Internationals
3. Connacht's 3 year extension.

I've a serious issue with no3 first of all. Connacht are losing players, not gaining them as we were supposed to and have been conned. Connacht have 9 contracted players for next season. There's no evidence that Connacht have been treated any differently than before. We get pittance off the IRFU first and foremost compared to the other provinces, so they can't blame funding Connacht for this.

They have failed to mention that they funded alot of the cost for the redevelopment of Thomond Park, for which they are still owed between 10 and 11 million by Munster.

They bankrolled the signings of the Boks in Ulster to the tune of 1 million quid. I've been harping on about this for awhile and have been consistently contradicted but the latest eveidence suggests they did just that. If this is true then it's a disgrace because they're paying the likes of Pienaar 420,000 euro a season, or at least a significant contribution, and he can't even play for Ireland. Scandalous.

CouchSmart

The system is broken. It was put in place to keep the best talent in Ireland, now it's no more than a way of keeping the most experienced talent in Ireland.

Sexton should leave, Toulouse are a great team and it's a great place to live. He'll be on probably 2 or 3 times what the IRFU can/will offer and will still get to play for Ireland as he's head and shoulders above anything else we have to offer at 10. Hopefully it will act as a catalyst for the IRFU to change their policies and systems because at the minute they just don't work. It's similar to the ticketing fiasco, no one from the IRFU thought they were in the wrong with their prices but the results didn't lie and they had to back down.

**** for Leinster though..

JustinDee

porterbelly wrote: »

The IRFU are blaming the fact they can't offer Sexton and Heaslip what they're looking for because
1. Paying back the for the Aviva
2. Loss from Autumn Internationals
3. Connacht's 3 year extension

Out of curiosity, who from the IRFU said this?

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

no. Because it is none of my business, your business or anyone else's really.

But if you've listened to any of the podcasts/radio interviews/ read whats in the papers, Sexton has already said that he doesn't expect or hope that Leinster/IRFU match the French offers, but that he be paid accordingly for being Ireland's first choice OH.

You're usually an informed poster, would you not agree that being paid less than the guy who will be playing back up to you is ridiculous?

The IRFU made a major mistake here.

Why drag other players into the debate so?

I have absolutely no idea nor care what any player is on or what Sexton or Heaslip have been offered but the one thing I do know is that it takes 2 to come to an agreement so those blaming the IRFU for this delay is slightly disingenuous.

phog

phog wrote: »

Why drag other players into the debate so?

I have absolutely no idea nor care what any player is on or what Sexton or Heaslip have been offered but the one thing I do know is that it takes 2 to come to an agreement so those blaming the IRFU for this delay is slightly disingenuous.

You must be trolling now?

The problem with Sexton's contract is that he is asking to be paid as the #1 OH in Ireland (Which I hope we can all agree that he is?). However, the IRFU are paying another OH more money than they are offering Sexton.

Of course this is at the very heart of the issue, and that's why the other player was brought into the debate!

If I can't afford to buy bread and milk because I've spent all my money on hookers and booze, that's irresponsible. If the IRFU can't afford to pay Sexton his fair wage cause they've spent their money on his back up, that's equally irresponsible (and borderline insane).

I'm not trying to make this a "sides" issue, its purely business. And bad business.

jacothelad

porterbelly wrote: »

The IRFU are blaming the fact they can't offer Sexton and Heaslip what they're looking for because
1. Paying back the for the Aviva
2. Loss from Autumn Internationals
3. Connacht's 3 year extension.

I've a serious issue with no3 first of all. Connacht are losing players, not gaining them as we were supposed to and have been conned. Connacht have 9 contracted players for next season. There's no evidence that Connacht have been treated any differently than before. We get pittance off the IRFU first and foremost compared to the other provinces, so they can't blame funding Connacht for this.

They have failed to mention that they funded alot of the cost for the redevelopment of Thomond Park, for which they are still owed between 10 and 11 million by Munster.

They bankrolled the signings of the Boks in Ulster to the tune of 1 million quid. I've been harping on about this for awhile and have been consistently contradicted but the latest eveidence suggests they did just that. If this is true then it's a disgrace because they're paying the likes of Pienaar 420,000 euro a season, or at least a significant contribution, and he can't even play for Ireland. Scandalous.

Munster owe 9,000,000 and I'm sure they are good for it. Leinster have to pay rent for the use of the RDS. Maybe you think that's a waste of money also and they should have stayed at Donnybrook. I'm sure if Connacht can match the business plan of Munster they too will get the support to build a new stadium.

Pienaar isn't on anything like that sum and you constantly banging on about it won't change that fact. They do make a contribution but that's it. How much do the IRFU contribute to Howlett, Hines, Nacewa? Is it o.k. for them to stump up cash for the likes of players like van der Linde, De Villiers, Elsom and others but not when similar (but cheaper)players go to Ulster. Or any of the players at Connacht who are paid for by the IRFU who are clearly sub standard, will never be any better and also will never play for Ireland. Do you consider it money well spent to pay Hayes over 250.000 Euro on a central contract? Or ROG 400,000 for the next 3 years? Or DOC? If you want something to complain about, complain about the daft use of cash like that.

Ulster are already guaranteed to earn about £500,000 (582,000 Euro) from the ERC as quarter finalists. This goes directly to the IRFU, not to Ulster. That's a good start on repaying the contribution made by the IRFU. Ulster raised a lot extra cash to sign these guys in increased sponsorship. They also got £100,000 paid to Ulster in compensation by the Cardiff Blues.
If the unlikely event that Ulster were lucky enough to get to the semi finals, the Union would get even more. Perhaps rather than look at denigrating Ulster at every opportunity you might look at why Connacht have never been at the same level of performance either historically or today. There isn't the same level of interest, there isn't the population, there aren't good enough players.

For decades, Ulster helped bankroll the other three provinces as the one then that had the biggest income. No one complained as that was the right thing to do. It's just as well those involved weren't as mean spirited as you appear to be. Munster and Leinster have earned huge sums for the IRFU through being successful in the last 10 years. I've never seen any of their supporters on any forum complaining about that hard earned money being given to Connacht to fail season after season. Some might consider it money down the drain.

Stev_o

Probably because if ROG walks off Ireland has no other alternative at OH if Sexton gets injured, that's what i presume the IRFU heads are thinking.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

Probably because if ROG walks off Ireland has no other alternative at OH if Sexton gets injured, that's what i presume the IRFU heads are thinking.

What?

This is doomsday stuff at its finest!

Sangre

Call ROG what you like but he isn't a man to walk out on anything. Think he'll want to play for Ireland as long as he can.

As an aside, I must say, his post-Toulon interview was one of the best I've ever seen. Insightful, honest and no bull****. From that alone you can tell he still has a lot of passion.

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

What?

This is doomsday stuff at its finest!

Tbh it's the only reason i can think of why they gave ROG such a high salary. Someone clearly f*cked up at the IRFU or who knows. Surely though they could come to a agreement which would see their salary increase to the top salary in a years time to sort out this financial mess.

Nah the mess up was simple imo, just a lack of foresight, we're used to it at this stage.

They wanted to keep ROG at Munster, and keep him happy, so they paid him plenty of greens.

They didn't account properly for the fact that he is a diminishing quantity, and that his successor would rapidly overcome him, and demand to be paid accordingly.

This is nothing to do with Sexton or ROG, but all to do with whoever is in charge of this stuff on the IRFU end. If I'm ROG, I angle for all I can get, everytime!

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah the mess up was simple imo, just a lack of foresight, we're used to it at this stage.

They wanted to keep ROG at Munster, and keep him happy, so they paid him plenty of greens.

They didn't account properly for the fact that he is a diminishing quantity, and that his successor would rapidly overcome him, and demand to be paid accordingly.

This is nothing to do with Sexton or ROG, but all to do with whoever is in charge of this stuff on the IRFU end. If I'm ROG, I angle for all I can get, everytime!

It happens in every sport (The biggest comparison i can think of is with Darrelle Revis and the New York Jets in the NFL). There's always going to be someone who is the top earner yet isn't the top performer in his position.

Thus any salary they earn is just a inflation of what the top player should earn.

CouchSmart

All this contract talk is becoming a little bit too IRFU based for the Leinster thread. Perhaps a separate thread would be worthwhile if people really want to discuss it.

For those who aren't aware tickets will be available for the quarter final during the week for ST holders. The general sale starts the following week. Leinster have set up a really good pricing structure for the various stands, with some seats in the same stand having different prices! :eek: Well done I say, can't wait.

Pricing details here: Aviva Quarter Final

We have Aironi next up, Thursday week, 11th February (3 weeks without Leinster rugby annoying anyone else?:P). It's a chance for some players to really put their hand up for the rest of the season.

Team I'd like to see:

15. Nacewa
14. Conway
13. O'Malley
12. Berne
11. D. Kearney
10. Madigan
9. Boss

1. Heinke
2. Strauss
3. Newland
4. O'Donoghue
5. Toner
6. McLoughlin
7. Ryan
8. Ruddock

16. JHW
17. McGrath
18. Maguire (will be Shawe, though surely he's gone next season?)
19. Sherrif
20. Murphy (pretty sure Keogh is injured.)
21. POD
22. McKinley
23. Morris

jolley123

I'm really looking forward to these Magners games during the nations. So much talent coming through.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

From not paying over the hill bench warmers the money that should be reserved for current talent

phog wrote: »

You seem to have all the facts on why Heaslip and Sexton still haven't signed a new contract. Please tell me the money Sexton and Heaslip want from the IRFU, the money they have been offered and then the money these bench warmers you refer to are on?

Deleted User wrote: »

no. Because it is none of my business, your business or anyone else's really.

But if you've listened to any of the podcasts/radio interviews/ read whats in the papers, Sexton has already said that he doesn't expect or hope that Leinster/IRFU match the French offers, but that he be paid accordingly for being Ireland's first choice OH.

You're usually an informed poster, would you not agree that being paid less than the guy who will be playing back up to you is ridiculous?

The IRFU made a major mistake here.

Deleted User wrote: »

You must be trolling now?

The problem with Sexton's contract is that he is asking to be paid as the #1 OH in Ireland (Which I hope we can all agree that he is?). However, the IRFU are paying another OH more money than they are offering Sexton.

Of course this is at the very heart of the issue, and that's why the other player was brought into the debate!

If I can't afford to buy bread and milk because I've spent all my money on hookers and booze, that's irresponsible. If the IRFU can't afford to pay Sexton his fair wage cause they've spent their money on his back up, that's equally irresponsible (and borderline insane).

I'm not trying to make this a "sides" issue, its purely business. And bad business.

No, I'm not trolling but I fail to see how you're so sure what the stumbling block is, in fact you have previously said (quoted above) that you dont know and you still persist in bringing ROG's contract into the debate.

In the company I work for, each individual negotiates their pay without any reference to other staff doing similar work, I'd assume the IRFU must work on a similar framework.

phog

phog wrote: »

No, I'm not trolling but I fail to see how you're so sure what the stumbling block is, in fact you have previously said (quoted above) that you dont know and you still persist in bringing ROG's contract into the debate.

In the company I work for, each individual negotiates their pay without any reference to other staff doing similar work, I'd assume the IRFU must work on a similar framework.

Why on earth did they agree to our backup #10's wants and needs before our starting OH's? This is chronic and epic mismanagement.

Again, if you read above, I have completely and roundedly criticised the IRFU, and not ROG one bit. He did the right thing, why shouldn't he get as much money as they are offering?

But its exactly the case of buying the frills (a backup #10) and ignoring the essentials (A starting #10) that they are guilty of.

Obviously my coke and hookers analogy was hyperbolic, but its a shambolic state of affairs when the IRFU concentrate on fulfilling the contract demands of someone who won't play more than 40% of the available gametime in the timespan of his contract BEFORE settling with Sexton.


http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2010-11/rugby/story/132682.html

Sexton frustrated by contract talks
ESPNscrum Staff
January 19, 2011

Ireland and Leinster fly-half Jonathan Sexton has spoken of his frustration at not being able to agree a new deal with the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The 25-year-old playmaker, who is reportedly earning €100,000-a-year on his current provincial contract that runs until the end of the season, is looking to agree new terms with the IRFU but talks have stalled. The news is sure to attract interest from Europe's leading clubs although Sexton is keen to remain in Ireland beyond this year's Rugby World Cup.

"It's my future," Sexton told the Irish Independent newspaper. "Ask any rugby player and they say it's something they don't enjoy doing. I'd like it to be sorted, but it's not and I've become used to dealing with it at this stage. What can I do? All I can do is leave it to guys I trust to do it for me. I trust them 100pc to do what's right. They give me good advice and my family give me good advice as well.

"I don't really want to go into detail about it too much. I just hope it gets sorted. The only frustrating thing I can talk about is that I play for Leinster and when selected I then play for Ireland.

"The majority of the time I play with Leinster. But I don't negotiate with them, it's got nothing to do with them. So, it's me and the IRFU who decide whether I play for Leinster. That's the frustrating thing. Your loyalty to Leinster comes into a bit, gets called into question, which is frustrating. I've spent enough time thinking about it now to last a lifetime."

The IRFU have recently signed winger Andrew Trimble, prop Cian Healey and fly-half Ronan O'Gara to new deals while more recently Sexton has seen provincial team-mates Shane Jennings, Sean O'Brien, Fergus McFadden, Devin Toner and Jack McGrath put pen to paper on new contracts.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfeycwsncwkf/rss2/

Cheika: don’t make me poach Sexton
By Brian Canty
SATURDAY, JANUARY 22, 2011
FORMER Leinster coach Michael Cheika last night claimed he did not want to bring Irish international Jonathan Sexton to Stade Francais but declared such a move may be inevitable.

Speaking on Newstalk’s Off the Ball show, Cheika said; "I don’t want Sexton to come here. I didn’t spend all that time working hard to build that club (Leinster) so that I can go and take the players but I think that’s what’s going to happen in the end."

Cheika was a spectator at Leinster’s final Heineken Cup pool game last night away to Racing Metro in Paris, which gave rise to the suggestion he was there on a scouting mission but the Australian denied his presence was motivated by that and instead, reiterated his belief that the IRFU must stand up for their players "and pay them what they deserve and what’s fair".

"To be honest, I’d honestly prefer him (Sexton) to be staying in Ireland and (if the IRFU) pay what’s right for the players, for all the players, because they’ve got good resources, they’ve a good crop of young players coming up, they should do the right thing and pay them what they deserve and they’ll stay because they all want to stay."

He continued; "All the guys want to stay there because Leinster has a great atmosphere and they’re happy with it. I’ve had a good affinity with the Leinster supporters from my time there and I want those players to stay in Ireland. Maybe it’s about time the union who are saying that the French clubs have more money, they (the IRFU) have more money than anyone else and they should be paying them the right money."

Stev_o

Until we start seeing figures for these contracts it's pointless debating over it since we don't know what a "top" earner equates to.

The figures are fairly irrelevant I would've thought. Surely relative earnings is all we need to know.

If A plays more than B, and is in a more important/less depth postion than C, why would it make sense to earn less than either?

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

The figures are fairly irrelevant I would've thought. Surely relative earnings is all we need to know.

If A plays more than B, and is in a more important/less depth postion than C, why would it make sense to earn less than either?

Because years matter more then the actually sum. ROG's on a two year contract which basically means he's retiring in Ireland will be used by the National Squad for Two years.

For all we know the IRFU could be giving the more money but less on a year per year basis.

We simply don't know.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, if you read above, I have completely and roundedly criticised the IRFU, and not ROG one bit. He did the right thing, why shouldn't he get as much money as they are offering?

I never said you criticised ROG but you seem to imply that ROG and others got what they didn't deserve, also, your criticism of the IRFU seems to be based on the assumptions of what players are being paid or being offered and we dont know what these are.

BTW, Sexton isn't alone in having to deal with the IRFU rather than the province he playes with, all centrally contracted played have go through this, he seems to be only one that cant undertand the system. My intial post on this topic was that maybe Leinster should use some their funds to get the IRFU to increase the offer to get Sexton to stay, if this was to happen then he could discuss his future with Leinster and he would be happy.

ambid

CouchSmart wrote: »

All this contract talk is becoming a little bit too IRFU based for the Leinster thread. Perhaps a separate thread would be worthwhile if people really want to discuss it.

Good post CouchSmart. Who do you think would be captain of that team you suggest? Maybe McLaughlin? Or Nacewa? Boss or Ruddock might be a good option too at the fulcrum.

I hope you're right about the team but suspect Jennings might be discarded by Ireland and we might have him back.

toomevara

Leinster thread folks. Get it back on track. Ta.

CouchSmart

ambid wrote: »

Good post CouchSmart. Who do you think would be captain of that team you suggest? Maybe McLaughlin? Or Nacewa? Boss or Ruddock might be a good option too at the fulcrum.

I hope you're right about the team but suspect Jennings might be discarded by Ireland and we might have him back.

I'd say it'd be Nacewa from the team I picked, though any of the others you suggested could get it too.

Usually I'd be confident of getting Jennings back but with the injuries Ireland are carrying in the back row this year I wouldn't be so sure. Also with him playing so well this season we were probably never gonna get him back, he has really earned any game time he gets with Ireland.

ambid

CouchSmart wrote: »

Usually I'd be confident of getting Jennings back but with the injuries Ireland are carrying in the back row this year I wouldn't be so sure. Also with him playing so well this season we were probably never gonna get him back, he has really earned any game time he gets with Ireland.

Totally agree with that. Jennings has been outstanding this year and he deserves a few games with Ireland to make his claim.

Will be a great chance for Dom Ryan at 7, as there is less competition there than at 6.

I'd like to see JHW at hooker though. Think he needs a few matches in case anything happens to Strauss.

jolley123

ambid wrote: »

I'd like to see JHW at hooker though. Think he needs a few matches in case anything happens to Strauss.

+1

roycon

would love to see mckinley starting at outhalf and madigan in the centre or the other way round instead of berne. hes just a journeyman and hes not even a goood place kicker journeyman. see no reason to have him there

jolley123

I'd have

1.VDM
2.JHW
3.Newland
4.O'Donoghue
5.Toner
6.McLaughlin
7.Ryan
8.Ruddock

9.Boss
10.Madigan
11.Kearney
12.Berne
13.O'Malley
14.Conway
15.Nacewa

16.McGrath
17.Strauss
18.Maguire
19.Sheriff
20.Murphy I guess, if Keogh is injured.
21.POD
22.McKinnley
23.Keating

Tighthead is a bit worrying

ambid

roycon wrote: »

would love to see mckinley starting at outhalf and madigan in the centre or the other way round instead of berne. hes just a journeyman and hes not even a goood place kicker journeyman. see no reason to have him there

Ah that's a wee bit harsh. He's very creative and gets the backline moving very well. Not a great placekicker alright but he brings good experience to the team with everyone else away.

I think he's useful this season, but wonder about next. Lots of good Irish talent but if McFadden and Darcy are at the RWC we'd be a bit light at inside for the first couple of months. Maybe McKinley/Madigan would be okay then, but I still like Berne for this year at least.