Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Quint2010

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I've no problem with lads breaking through when they are 19, I just think tapping a 16 year old to play in three years time is rediculous because when a player is young there is every chance that he is a physical freak that developed two to three years ahead of his peers and will be average as an adult.

Brewer definitely has ability but I just hate bigging up schools players at that age they don't need the pressure.

Maybe its because his father played for the all blacks. I'll shut up about him so.:)

ambid

Quint2010 wrote: »

I would throw Harrison Brewer into the mix there too. He has the best potential of any schools player I have ever seen.

What position does he play?

WeeBushy

ambid wrote: »

What position does he play?

Like most good players in Leinster these days, backrow

GerM

rockman15 wrote: »

I wouldnt agree. I think we'll see at this WC a different role for 2nd rows. More carries, more dynamic running. We dont have that in our current batch of locks. Loughie has the ability to do those things and be more proactive at turning over ball, softer hands offloading through the tackle and he's a lineout operator. At present the current generation of locks are smash and grab type players. Pick the ball, find the gain line and tackle. Not only in ireland, Matfield, Botha, pape, nallet, Alyn Wyn and Ryan Jones all of the same mould. I think its going to/needs to change.

Ireland are so far behind the curve when it comes to second row play it's not funny. For several years now, the other nations have been developing locks that can handle the ball comfortably and are mobile. They play almost like additional flankers in attack. Mal O'Kelly was the only lock that could match the other nations for skill levels. The likes of Davies, Gray and Lawes are the future of second row play and are 24, 21 and 22 respectively. Ian Nagle has shown some glimpses of that ability but he turns 23 in October and is nowhere near the level of the others. The likes of Matfield is well able to handle the ball and carry as is Ryan Jones. France seem to rely on the big lumps at lock like us also so we're not totally alone.

ambid

GerM wrote: »

Ireland are so far behind the curve when it comes to second row play it's not funny. For several years now, the other nations have been developing locks that can handle the ball comfortably and are mobile...

In fairness, Leo showed some excellent handling skills yesterday. But you're right, Ireland seems to be struggling to produce locks atm. These things are cyclical though, a few years ago we seemed short of props and had lots of second rows. Post POC, DOC, and Leo it is a little worrying though alright.

PhatPiggins

If Ryan Jones is anything other then a stop gap in the second row I'm Santa Clause

tolosenc

WeeBushy wrote: »

Like most good players in Leinster these days, backrow

In fairness, if push came to shove, Jamie and SOB would probably do all right with double digits on their backs. I nearly think Heaslip'd prefer it.

PhatPiggins

rockman15 wrote: »

I wouldnt agree. I think we'll see at this WC a different role for 2nd rows. More carries, more dynamic running. We dont have that in our current batch of locks. Loughie has the ability to do those things and be more proactive at turning over ball, softer hands offloading through the tackle and he's a lineout operator. At present the current generation of locks are smash and grab type players. Pick the ball, find the gain line and tackle. Not only in ireland, Matfield, Botha, pape, nallet, Alyn Wyn and Ryan Jones all of the same mould. I think its going to/needs to change.


Given the resources we have coming through the academy and with toner at present I think he should be converted. Toner is nowhere near international standard. In fact I wouldnt play him in a H Cup match.

I agree with all of what your saying but look at all of the examples you've listed bar Ryan Jones (who's a convenient example) they're all still big power players. Mclaughlin is neither tall enough or powerful enough to ever make an international lock out of, HC standard with huge work maybe but why would you waste an international class back rower on that?

tolosenc

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I agree with all of what your saying but look at all of the examples you've listed bar Ryan Jones (who's a convenient example) they're all still big power players. Mclaughlin is neither tall enough or powerful enough to ever make an international lock out of, HC standard with huge work maybe but why would you waste an international class back rower on that?

You're aware that he's 6'5", right? As in the same as MOD, and an inch less than POC, DOC, Cullen, Nagle... Not everyone can be Devin Toner. I'd argue that he has the potential to be more powerful than any lock currently based in Ireland.

Locky and Tuohy at 4 and 5, Healy, Strauss and Ross up front, with Jenno, SOB, and Heaslip in the backrow would one hell of a pack by international standards.

PhatPiggins

tolosenc wrote: »

You're aware that he's 6'5", right? As in the same as MOD, and an inch less than POC, DOC, Cullen, Nagle... Not everyone can be Devin Toner. I'd argue that he has the potential to be more powerful than any lock currently based in Ireland.

Locky and Tuohy at 4 and 5, Healy, Strauss and Ross up front, with Jenno, SOB, and Heaslip in the backrow would one hell of a pack by international standards.

To be honest I disagree with about 85% of everything you post so I'll leave you at it.

CatFromHue

Quint2010 wrote: »

Maybe its because his father played for the all blacks. I'll shut up about him so.:)

have you actually seen him play more than 3 games?

as others have said im not saying he isnt going to make it or that he has no potential. more that at 16 he really is just a kid.

Conas

McLaughlin has with it takes to be an outstanding second rower but the only problem is he doesn't get played there enough. With Hines leaving I think he'll get played there more. Any of the games he played at second row this year he was class, and scored a try in the process. He's better suited there than at 6.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Conas wrote: »

McLaughlin has with it takes to be an outstanding second rower but the only problem is he doesn't get played there enough. With Hines leaving I think he'll get played there more. Any of the games he played at second row this year he was class, and scored a try in the process. He's better suited there than at 6.

Hines may be leaving but Leinster have signed two second rows so I see competition there for him to face in order to get into the team at second row

roycon

anything about harrison brewer should be on the schools rugby thread. hes 16 and has absolutely nothing to do with leinster rugby. get over it

roycon

its maybe a bit unfair to include alun wyn jones in the list. hes very athletic and has great hands. he just happens to be massive as well

rockman15

rockman15 wrote: »

I wouldnt agree. I think we'll see at this WC a different role for 2nd rows. More carries, more dynamic running. We dont have that in our current batch of locks. Loughie has the ability to do those things and be more proactive at turning over ball, softer hands offloading through the tackle and he's a lineout operator. At present the current generation of locks are smash and grab type players. Pick the ball, find the gain line and tackle. Not only in ireland, Matfield, Botha, pape, nallet, Alyn Wyn and Ryan Jones all of the same mould. I think its going to/needs to change.

glorious, just glorious.

Howtopostinboards.ieRugbythreads101




What a bullseye of a post tbh. We've been focussed on growing clones of "the old 2nd row" so long that we've missed a huge trick! Gone are the lumberers tbh, WC 2011 will change how a pack develops imo, the pack will become "the packline"....

rockman15

Glad to see I've hit a mark here with this one.

Its a bit of a bug bear of mine. The last decade of rugby has seen advancement and refinement of the roles every player has. To me it seems the locks have largely remained the same.One dimensional runners with hands like granite. As Maxine Wrong Grits and others corrcetly point out, fast hands are going to be required from 2nd rows in this WC. What will seperate a team who does well and a team that turns up is the lines their players will be prepared to run in support.

Next season we're going to see more players coming onto the ball at speed from the break down with a pop up pass. 2 support runners at all times and a generally more flowing game. It suits teams like the current European Champions because we have the players to win with kind of style. Bar the 2nd rows. I think its fairly endemic tbh in the NH game to have the "tallest kids in school" being your locks. Which isnt necessarily the greatest idea.

bamboozle

rockman15 wrote: »

Glad to see I've hit a mark here with this one.

Its a bit of a bug bear of mine. The last decade of rugby has seen advancement and refinement of the roles every player has. To me it seems the locks have largely remained the same.One dimensional runners with hands like granite. As Maxine Wrong Grits and others corrcetly point out, fast hands are going to be required from 2nd rows in this WC. What will seperate a team who does well and a team that turns up is the lines their players will be prepared to run in support.

Next season we're going to see more players coming onto the ball at speed from the break down with a pop up pass. 2 support runners at all times and a generally more flowing game. It suits teams like the current European Champions because we have the players to win with kind of style. Bar the 2nd rows. I think its fairly endemic tbh in the NH game to have the "tallest kids in school" being your locks. Which isnt necessarily the greatest idea.

just on this, one moment which stood out for me on Saturday was in the 2nd half when Hines picked from a quick ruck inside our half, quick offload to Strauss who while tackled offloaded at ankle level in front of Cullen, Cullen was falling over and being tackled at the same time but still managed to hold onto the ball, from that ruck we scored our 3rd try.

In the modern game we need to see these skill levels from numbers 1 - 15 and this is something patently lacking in the current 2 Irish second rows, one of whom (Paulie) had over 7 knock-on's in the 2010 6 nations.

This isnt a dig at a munster player, its a reflection on the changing nature of the game where all players need to be able to pass and offload comfortably, Kidney will need to brush up on this once he gets his hands on the squad for the WC.

rockman15

bamboozle wrote: »

just on this, one moment which stood out for me on Saturday was in the 2nd half when Hines picked from a quick ruck inside our half, quick offload to Strauss who while tackled offloaded at ankle level in front of Cullen, Cullen was falling over and being tackled at the same time but still managed to hold onto the ball, from that ruck we scored our 3rd try.

In the modern game we need to see these skill levels from numbers 1 - 15 and this is something patently lacking in the current 2 Irish second rows, one of whom (Paulie) had over 7 knock-on's in the 2010 6 nations.

This isnt a dig at a munster player, its a reflection on the changing nature of the game where all players need to be able to pass and offload comfortably, Kidney will need to brush up on this once he gets his hands on the squad for the WC.

Agreed. To be fair i think if leo had to do that one again he wouldnt bet on himself to gather it! I think there was an element of everything happening at the correct time there.

I know we look at the SH sides for inclinations as to where the game will head, but in this context its interesting to note that Chris Jack and even Brad Thosn despite his years, last weekend had some offloads in tackles and didnt just hit the deck and form a ruck. Ali Williams did alright on them too. Now to be fair to the guys Im not expecting SBW "out the trap door" stuff. The pop up from the deck or hands through the gate is perfectly acceptable. Its something our back row does quite well actually.

In effect it lets us play our backline game at a fast speed which suits both Leinster and Ireland. I just hope to god Declan picks this up.

GerM

bamboozle wrote: »

just on this, one moment which stood out for me on Saturday was in the 2nd half when Hines picked from a quick ruck inside our half, quick offload to Strauss who while tackled offloaded at ankle level in front of Cullen, Cullen was falling over and being tackled at the same time but still managed to hold onto the ball, from that ruck we scored our 3rd try.

Cullen actually does have excellent hands which stems from his early career when he played 8. He doesn't have an offloading game or passing game though which is something I'd like to see developed in up and coming locks. He's also not much of a carrier, just lacks the dynamism. He still has probably the best handling of our international locks though. I pine for the days of Mal when he was throwing skip passes off his left. Remember the pass for BOD's third against Agen? I doubt there's more than a handful of locks in the world that could have thrown that. Also loved his passing for one of the tries against Llanelli last season in the HEC. Little inside reverse pass before finding Sexton on the loop with a pop.

We seem unable to develop someone that has the mix of power, mobility and handling that several other nations have. Most can achieve 2 of these but I don't think any Irish lock has all 3. Tuohy is probably someone that could be considered to have them but not to high enough or a consistent enough level.

totallegend

bamboozle wrote: »

just on this, one moment which stood out for me on Saturday was in the 2nd half when Hines picked from a quick ruck inside our half, quick offload to Strauss who while tackled offloaded at ankle level in front of Cullen, Cullen was falling over and being tackled at the same time but still managed to hold onto the ball, from that ruck we scored our 3rd try.

Hines has been doing this sort of thing all season, he has wonderful hands, never goes to ground when he can stay on his feet and look for the offload. And he's a big unit too, so maybe he shows that a second-row doesn't have to be smaller or lighter to function as a ball-playing member of the team. He is a colossal loss to Leinster.

The idea being floated that a new generation of lighter, more nimble second-rows is coming also overlooks the fact that the second-row provides a fair amount of ballast in the scrum; it's no good having the Harlem Globetrotters in the second row if you're getting marched backwards at scrum-time...

Quint2010

totallegend wrote: »

Hines has been doing this sort of thing all season, he has wonderful hands, never goes to ground when he can stay on his feet and look for the offload. And he's a big unit too, so maybe he shows that a second-row doesn't have to be smaller or lighter to function as a ball-playing member of the team. He is a colossal loss to Leinster.

The idea being floated that a new generation of lighter, more nimble second-rows is coming also overlooks the fact that the second-row provides a fair amount of ballast in the scrum; it's no good having the Harlem Globetrotters in the second row if you're getting marched backwards at scrum-time...

True but if everyone starts picking more athletic second rows then everyones scrum is going to be less physical hence less chance of the opposition pushing you around. In theory.

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

The idea being floated that a new generation of lighter, more nimble second-rows is coming also overlooks the fact that the second-row provides a fair amount of ballast in the scrum; it's no good having the Harlem Globetrotters in the second row if you're getting marched backwards at scrum-time...

I don't think many of them are particularly lighter just more mobile. Of the new up and coming international locks, Sam Whitelock would be the lightest I think and he's about the same as POC. Lawes, Horwill, Hargreaves, Gray, Davies are all young international locks and all have some serious bulk; they're significantly bigger than our current locks whilst surpassing them in the ball carrying stakes. Even Sykes, Leinster's latest acquisition, is a serious unit and from the clips I've seen is very comfortable with the ball in hand.

rockman15

totallegend wrote: »

Hines has been doing this sort of thing all season, he has wonderful hands, never goes to ground when he can stay on his feet and look for the offload. And he's a big unit too, so maybe he shows that a second-row doesn't have to be smaller or lighter to function as a ball-playing member of the team. He is a colossal loss to Leinster.

The idea being floated that a new generation of lighter, more nimble second-rows is coming also overlooks the fact that the second-row provides a fair amount of ballast in the scrum; it's no good having the Harlem Globetrotters in the second row if you're getting marched backwards at scrum-time...

I didnt include Hines as he is unfortunatly leaving and NIQ. Massive loss for us. His performances this season have been on par with nacewa and SOB. Unfortunatly we dont get to see as much of his hard work as its rarely a high take or barnstormer of a run. His handling has been superb all year. I seem to recall an offload last weekend for strauss at some point that was unreal. Just fed it to him in to the bread basket and strauss went off up the field.

Id like to think he knows his efforts are appreciated. The try last weekend I think was an appropriate way to sign off on a great time here. He really has been a massive player for us over the past few years.

andrewdcs

central reason I love rugby union, the options / styles of play that can be quite dramatically different, dramatically different players, and a reason I find league, ostensibly an entertaining "7s" style runabout, so boring. Unfair but I just can't sit through a game. (7 minutes of highlights no problem!) probably a lack of understanding on the tactical nous / game of brutalizing chess to find the space. *idea for an app.... rugby chess

Leinster have a pretty perfect balance at the moment, mclaughlin can certainly slot in at 6 (wait, which one needs to be heavier to keep the scrum straight? 5) but how will he and his agent play the positions game, is he touching distance to a world cup start spot? I don't know.

Speaking of switching positions around, I'd be throwing SOB around a bit to drag opposition around. Not a fan of forwards on the wing, but he'd keep at least 2 backs occupied / drag tight five wide.

Do like the idea of an extra back row forward at lock, playing three "8s" is standard now after a couple of seasons back where you needed the ground hogs to secure ball. As long as you have 2 lineout options you can do whatever you want really. England try the lighter/faster locks, but it only if the opposition scrum allow it (as Quint2010 points out).

rockman15

Quint2010 wrote: »

True but if everyone starts picking more athletic second rows then everyones scrum is going to be less physical hence less chance of the opposition pushing you around. In theory.

I often wondered as to the physics of the scrum, there has to be an optium physiological dimsension for a 2nd row? Too big and he cant get low enough and has to arch his back in the scrum which actually reduces the pressure he can give to the prop and receive from the 8 (Im thinking of toner here). Too small and he looses the weight argument?

On the hands issue, we clearly need to tell our locks to be more adventerous as kids. The old mantra of up the middle rugby for the tall guy isnt going to work anymore. Im interested to see what Sykkes brings, obviously joe sees something there.

justsomebloke

rockman15 wrote: »

I didnt include Hines as he is unfortunatly leaving and NIQ. Massive loss for us. His performances this season have been on par with nacewa and SOB. Unfortunatly we dont get to see as much of his hard work as its rarely a high take or barnstormer of a run. His handling has been superb all year. I seem to recall an offload last weekend for strauss at some point that was unreal. Just fed it to him in to the bread basket and strauss went off up the field.

Id like to think he knows his efforts are appreciated. The try last weekend I think was an appropriate way to sign off on a great time here. He really has been a massive player for us over the past few years.

Have to agree with this. I was a little peeved that strauss got the unsung player of the year award at the Leinster awards this season, as he has gotten a lot of the limelight, when truthfully Hines would of been far more deserving winner as for me he more the anyone else took over Rocky's mantle and I truthfully don't think that we would be the current Heineken cup champions if it wasn't for him

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

Hines has been doing this sort of thing all season, he has wonderful hands

On Saturday in the second half it looked like he wanted to play scrum half!

jacothelad

tolosenc wrote: »

You're aware that he's 6'5", right? As in the same as MOD, and an inch less than POC, DOC, Cullen, Nagle... Not everyone can be Devin Toner. I'd argue that he has the potential to be more powerful than any lock currently based in Ireland.

Locky and Tuohy at 4 and 5, Healy, Strauss and Ross up front, with Jenno, SOB, and Heaslip in the backrow would one hell of a pack by international standards.

Splitting hairs a little but he is given as 6'4" and 17st. on the Leinster site so I assume they have accurate measuring devices of some sort. I'm not certain that combo in the second row is big enough. It certainly would be one of the most mobile around with only someone like Lawes and Croft having the pace. I really don't think he is just big enough for the modern lock altough I wouldn't rule it out. I do however think he is a good back-up 6 for Leinster with SOB in front of him and vying for a place alongside Dom Ryan. Tuohy is 6'5" so not a lot in it I suppose but Dan has a bit more bulk at around 18st but Fr. Kevin has a big enough frame to carry more muscle if needed. Given the size of many locks being 6'7" and beyond Ireland can't afford to give up lineout options by employing two 'short' 2nd rows. Kevin is a great lineout option at the tail as is Ferris, SOB, Heaslip. (Ulster even win a lot of lineout by using Faloon as a jumper and he is a dwarf. I think they get away with it as the oppos can't believe it.:D)

irishbucsfan

Ian Nagle and McLoughlin could be our 2nd Rows in WC 2015. I'm very happy with that prospect... I personally don't see why we shouldn't try Locky out in the row because at Leinster we have O'Brien and Ruddock as 6s for the forseeable future and for Ireland we have O'Brien and Ferris. There is just no room for Locky, he'd be much better off at as LOCKy.