A new wave of republican violence

Denerick

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok, I will concede the point as you obviously know far more of them than I do after living in their country for 2 years, but again, that just re-enforces the gap in my mind.
You might aswell be telling me about people in the Isle of Mann or Jersey, lol.
Different country to the one I grew up in & live in.

If you ever meet a gang of norries abroad or at a gig in Dumpland or something, you always feel like you are on the outside - and I mean political views aside. You can't just fit in with them the same way you would with a bunch of lads from Tipp or Galway or something.

They have more in common with each other than they do with us.

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. People from rural Donegal find it hard to mix with people from rural Cork. Its a part of life, the way you describe the Republic is completely absurd, a laugh, you imply that everyone gets along and has a laugh together and that when nordies come down there are awkward silences.

When you're in a hole, stop digging. Seriously mate.

Dannyboy83

Denerick wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. People from rural Donegal find it hard to mix with people from rural Cork. Its a part of life, the way you describe the Republic is completely absurd, a laugh, you imply that everyone gets along and has a laugh together and that when nordies come down there are awkward silences.

When you're in a hole, stop digging. Seriously mate.

May I enquire what part of the island you are from?

One of my best friends is my rural Dongeal, most of my family are from rural Cork;). Shared history, shared outlook and plenty in common.

I used to work with a lad from Derry, sound as a pound but distinctly different. There were no silences because we were too busy asking him about the way things are in 'his' country.

Denerick

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

May I enquire what part of the island you are from?

One of my best friends is my rural Dongeal, most of my family are from rural Cork;). Shared history, shared outlook and plenty in common.

I used to work with a lad from Derry, sound as a pound but distinctly different. There were no silences because we were too busy asking him about the way things are in 'his' country.

I am from the borderland (live less than 5 miles from the border with Tyrone)

I think what you are saying is utter tosh, and reflects your own complexes, not your mate's.

Dannyboy83

Denerick wrote: »

I am from the borderland (live less than 5 miles from the border with Tyrone)

Game, set, match.

I think what you are saying is utter tosh, and reflects your own complexes, not your mate's.

You're entitled to your opinion.
I asked some of my colleagues in work today on a cigarette break around 4pm and they shared the same opinion as I did.
One of my colleagues is French, has an Irish partner and has lived here for a number of years. He said the North feels distinctly different to the south..

It's not a complex, it's just a different country.
I'm sorry if that is offensive to you or does not comply with people's political objectives, but that's the truth.

(Maybe it's different for people in Dublin/Monaghan *shrugs*)

Denerick

You've brought up a few examples from people on a fag break in work. I doubt any nordies would even consider me one, I didn't grow up in her majesty's jurisdiction.

I think you've been exposed to a small pond of people and based your opinion from that. This kind of anecdotal evidence is the source of most prejudice, unfortunately.

Dannyboy83

Denerick wrote: »

You've brought up a few examples from people on a fag break in work. I doubt any nordies would even consider me one, I didn't grow up in her majesty's jurisdiction.

I think you've been exposed to a small pond of people and based your opinion from that. This kind of anecdotal evidence is the source of most prejudice, unfortunately.

Fair comments, I don't deny it.
Your point reiterates mine tho, small level of exposure - unless you have relations up there, I'm sure it's the same for most of us.

(As an aside, I remember FTA69 actually talking about this exact process as part of the Northern policy aims last year - trying to dig it up right now).

Edit:

FTA69 wrote:

Many Republicans contend that the Brits have achieved all of their aims as a result of the Good Friday Agreement, those being summed up in the terms

Ulsterisation : the confining of the conflict to within Ireland, use of RUC instead of the Brits etc, an effort to portray things as mad paddies killing each other.

Criminalisation : The attempt to portray Republican violence as inherently criminal as opposed to the response to an occupation.

Normalisation: The attempt to instill regularity and stability in Ireland within a British context, again a method of masking the occupation of the country.

The Real IRA would believe that such attacks disrupt the normalisation process. Ultimately they would aim to escalate their campaign in order to highlight the inherent contradictions of normalising the British presence here.

Now before anyone hops down my throat I'm just pointing out where they're coming from.

I believe it falls into the context of 'normalisation', doesn't it?

McNulty32

To those that tell us the days the army is off our streets have a look at this, a British Army patrol helicopter spotted Lisnaskea last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMszmrkizFc

They havent gone away you know

IrishTonyO

McNulty32 wrote: »

To those that tell us the days the army is off our streets have a look at this, a British Army patrol helicopter spotted Lisnaskea last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMszmrkizFc

They havent gone away you know

Wow a helicopter on the street!!!!

Denerick

McNulty32 wrote: »

To those that tell us the days the army is off our streets have a look at this, a British Army patrol helicopter spotted Lisnaskea last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMszmrkizFc

They havent gone away you know

Jesus Christ, thats such a disgrace. I'm sure you were first to alert your commander in the nearest boozer. Give him a couple of shots of coffee, I'm sure once he's semi sober he'll send a van armed with bootloog ciggys to south Fermanagh straight away. That'll show the bastards.

McNulty32

Denerick wrote: »

Jesus Christ, thats such a disgrace. I'm sure you were first to alert your commander in the nearest boozer. Give him a couple of shots of coffee, I'm sure once he's semi sober he'll send a van armed with bootloog ciggys to south Fermanagh straight away. That'll show the bastards.

Funny how you decry republicans are alcoholic criminals but when they show the capacity to be able to explode a bomb at MI5s HQ in Ireland you get a tad upset

dreamer_ire

Hardly shows much capacity to hijack a car, stick a bomb in it and get some poor sod to drive it to the barracks. In any case it wasn't an attack on MI5, it was an attack on Sein Fein. It may have been at the barracks but given the timing there was only one message they were trying to get across.

The reality is that the vast majority of people in NI do not want to go back to the past and will not allow it to happen. Yes there will be more attacks, and more than likely there will be the tragic loss of life but Ireland will never be unified as a result of violent means. If the dissidents truely wanted a united Ireland they would work towards it within the process. Makes me wonder what it is they really want.... I guess people will form their own conclusions on that.

Denerick

McNulty32 wrote: »

Funny how you decry republicans are alcoholic criminals but when they show the capacity to be able to explode a bomb at MI5s HQ in Ireland you get a tad upset

Yes I get a tad upset because you thugs are hell bent on murdering people against the wishes of the masses, and don't even bother trying to appear sorry for your brutality. Don't take this the wrong way, but I sincerely hope you burn in eternity in hell. How the hell you can look your fellow countryman in the face I'll never know.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok, I will concede the point as you obviously know far more of them than I do after living in their country for 2 years, but again, that just re-enforces the gap in my mind.
You might aswell be telling me about people in the Isle of Mann or Jersey, lol.
Different country to the one I grew up in & live in.

If you ever meet a gang of norries abroad or at a gig in Dumpland or something, you always feel like you are on the outside - and I mean political views aside. You can't just fit in with them the same way you would with a bunch of lads from Tipp or Galway or something.

They have more in common with each other than they do with us.

I think this might be in your head to be honest. I'm originally from Dublin. So yes feel a little on the outside when first meeting agroup from the North. But I'd feel just as outside if it were a group from Cork/Waterford/donegal/galway. Maybe you're just used to hearing the accent on the news only and its given a distorted perception. Can understand how that could happen if you grew up not knowing anyone from the north.

LordSutch

I think one of the main differences between Unionists & Nationalists is the very concept of what it is to be Irish.

Unionists see it as being part of the greater British family through heritage & culture (English, Scots & Welsh included), Irish Nationalists & Republicans see 'Irishness' in a totally different way, ie (being totally seperate from Britishness), so OK this isnt news to anybody here, but it is a reality which is ingrained into the two tribes & which might help to explain the two polar opposite opinions as displayed in this thread.

Denerick

Camelot wrote: »

I think one of the main differences between Unionists & Nationalists is the very concept of what it is to be Irish.

Unionists see it as being part of the greater British family through heritage & culture (English, Scots & Welsh included), Irish Nationalists & Republicans see 'Irishness' in a totally different way, ie (being totally seperate from Britishness), so OK this isnt news to anybody here, but it is a reality which is ingrained into the two tribes & which might help to explain the two polar opposite opinions as displayed in this thread.

I am not a Unionist. I do not support the Union of Britain and Northern Ireland. I hold the views of the vast overwhelming majority of people, north and south, that a tiny elite is not entitled to wage a war on its own terms. Its amazing that standing up to a narrow fascist ideology earns you the label 'Unionist'.

StudentDad

There seems to my mind anyway to be two types of Irish 'nationalist.' There's the, 'wrap the country in a tri-colour and keep everything else out brigade' - if we didn't do it in 1410 it isn't 'IRISH' and must be banned. Anyone caught endorsing or becoming involved in such activities are 'TRAITORS.' Etc., etc., etc. This form of backward isolationist nonsense seems to be the variety of 'nationalism' that is practiced and/or endorsed by the current shower of murdering bastards on this Island.

The other type of 'nationalist' is the one who recognises the rule of law and democracy and accepts these things as normal and legitimate. Agreements put in place that place us as citizens of Europe and of either the UK or ROI or in how many cases of both the UK and ROI?

The plain fact of the matter is that since 'independence' the 26 counties have been run into the ground - socially, economically and culturally. If I was living in NI I wouldn't want the 6 counties to secede from the UK.

SD

SlabMurphy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok, I will concede the point as you obviously know far more of them than I do after living in their country for 2 years, but again, that just re-enforces the gap in my mind.
You might aswell be telling me about people in the Isle of Mann or Jersey, lol.
Different country to the one I grew up in & live in.

If you ever meet a gang of norries abroad or at a gig in Dumpland or something, you always feel like you are on the outside - and I mean political views aside. You can't just fit in with them the same way you would with a bunch of lads from Tipp or Galway or something.

They have more in common with each other than they do with us.

I'm a Dub. Give me anybody from any part of Ireland - exect Cork f**king city :rolleyes: " de real capital " and all that sh*te :rolleyes:

FTA69

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you ever meet a gang of norries abroad or at a gig in Dumpland or something, you always feel like you are on the outside - and I mean political views aside. You can't just fit in with them the same way you would with a bunch of lads from Tipp or Galway or something.

They have more in common with each other than they do with us.

I think you're way off here lad to be honest. Not fitting in with a bunch of lads can be down to a million and one factors, of which local origin is a fairly irrelevant one. I remember when I lived in London I met fellas from Cork in a pub in Camden, due to the fact I was a working class machine operative from Mayfield and they were private school educated and now working in the City we were worlds apart. I had much more in common with the Jamaicans I was out with that night.

The existence of a "border" doesn't mark any sea-change in the ability to get on with people like. For f*ck's sake on the border itself nobody pays a blind bit of attention to it. When Cavan play Armagh in the football do you think they treat it as an international match or something?

There is zip all difference between the personalities of northerners and southerners, none whatsoever. When people start off on that lark I usually judge it as a case of people making things up in order to suit whatever political argument they're trying to make.

Dannyboy83

SlabMurphy wrote: »

I'm a Dub. Give me anybody from any part of Ireland - exect Cork f**king city :rolleyes: " de real capital " and all that sh*te :rolleyes:

aw jayyyysssussss bud, wha?
just dun me 6 munts in da joy, on me way ti talla, av yous any smokes av yas?
Antos gonna gimmee me fi, fookin deadly, tew chip and a battar burgur pihleeez

Dannyboy83

FTA69 wrote: »

I think you're way off here lad to be honest. Not fitting in with a bunch of lads can be down to a million and one factors, of which local origin is a fairly irrelevant one. I remember when I lived in London I met fellas from Cork in a pub in Camden, due to the fact I was a working class machine operative from Mayfield and they were private school educated and now working in the City we were worlds apart. I had much more in common with the Jamaicans I was out with that night.

The existence of a "border" doesn't mark any sea-change in the ability to get on with people like. For f*ck's sake on the border itself nobody pays a blind bit of attention to it. When Cavan play Armagh in the football do you think they treat it as an international match or something?

There is zip all difference between the personalities of northerners and southerners, none whatsoever. When people start off on that lark I usually judge it as a case of people making things up in order to suit whatever political argument they're trying to make.

I gonna concede the point, getting bored of the debate now tbh.
I'll agree that Derry folks feel more Irish than Belfast folks, but they all feel different to people from the Republic.
I don't mean about 'fitting in', I'm not talking about interpersonal issues, I'm not talking about class issues, I'm talking about culture, outlook, sense of humour.
Maybe I just never met enough of them?
I'm friendly with many Eastern Europeans and I'm accustomed to their different cultures, and they are accustomed to ours, but you're dreaming if you think we are the same. We are probably harmonizing gradually, but still distinctly different.

It's irrelevant anyway, it's not a political outlook, it's just the way I feel and the way a lot of southerners feel.
'Them' and 'Us'.

To me, it ties into what you were saying in the post where I quoted you above. It ties into 'normalisation'. Normalisation of British administration, developing a sense of a distinctly Nothern identity, not a national one etc etc. etc.

BTW; I put up a thread here to see what other Cork people think about.
http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=179036

anglo_celt

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I gonna concede the point, getting bored of the debate now tbh.
I'll agree that Derry folks feel more Irish than Belfast folks, but they all feel different to people from the Republic.
I don't mean about 'fitting in', I'm not talking about interpersonal issues, I'm not talking about class issues, I'm talking about culture, outlook, sense of humour.
Maybe I just never met enough of them?
I'm friendly with many Eastern Europeans and I'm accustomed to their different cultures, and they are accustomed to ours, but you're dreaming if you think we are the same. We are probably harmonizing gradually, but still distinctly different.

It's irrelevant anyway, it's not a political outlook, it's just the way I feel and the way a lot of southerners feel.
'Them' and 'Us'.

To me, it ties into what you were saying in the post where I quoted you above. It ties into 'normalisation'. Normalisation of British administration, developing a sense of a distinctly Nothern identity, not a national one etc etc. etc.

BTW; I put up a thread here to see what other Cork people think about.
http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=179036

Nice one Dannyboy83. Up Cork

Hugo Drax

anglo_celt wrote: »

With the upsurge in republican violence within northern ireland. Are we to see a return to the troubled period once again. With the high unemployment in working class areas of Ireland as a whole I do believe this could be the last push for a United Ireland.It could also see a return of the feared UDA/UFF and civil war spreading into the Republic.This is aim of these men. Revolution. Many Republicans,North and South,and also in the United States agree with the Real IRA. Republiucan Sinn Fein see Mr Adam and his cronies as traitors to the Republican Movement by allowing themselves to become elected to the British Parliament and also taking seats in Dail Eireann. That is not according to Sinn Fein's Founder members that no man shall take a seat in Dail Eireann until Ireland was United. They are not going away ya know.

They were at it again yesterday.

I'm amazed these people can operate, British and Irish military intelligence know every hair on these peoples heads, every minute of their waking days are catalogued and these "organizations" are thoroughly infiltrated, yet they still manage to commit acts like that of yesterday??

Denerick

Within every organisation there is an ultra harcore, ranked on a scale of ideological purity, that is basically impervious to informer infiltration. Its identical to the KKK really, those guys would always know an FBI sleeper agent if they saw him, a true racist knows a true racist when he see's one. The same for the dissident Republicans. A true delusional fascist knows a true delusional fascist when they see one. They're notoriously hard to infiltrate.

Hugo Drax

Denerick wrote: »

Within every organisation there is an ultra harcore, ranked on a scale of ideological purity, that is basically impervious to informer infiltration. Its identical to the KKK really, those guys would always know an FBI sleeper agent if they saw him, a true racist knows a true racist when he see's one. The same for the dissident Republicans. A true delusional fascist knows a true delusional fascist when they see one. They're notoriously hard to infiltrate.

I think even the most cursory knowledge of the Troubles would prove that these groups have consistently been infiltrated by British agents.

Even if they weren't, these men are literally followed and watched everywhere they go, how are the intelligence agents assigned to follow these extremists not able to see what they're up to and prevent it?

Strange....

Denerick

I was clearly referring to the dissident groups, not PIRA.

FTA69

I'm amazed these people can operate, British and Irish military intelligence know every hair on these peoples heads, every minute of their waking days are catalogued and these "organizations" are thoroughly infiltrated, yet they still manage to commit acts like that of yesterday??

Are they thoroughly infiltrated though? When the Real IRA split in 1997 they consisted of a small group of highly experienced and skilled operators, it was when they tried to play the numbers game and heavily recruit anyone who applied to join was the beginning of their undoing due to the low-calibre of people they were bringing in e.g. anti-social types and downright eejits. This was a problem suffered by the INLA in many places throughout its existence.

As a result of this the Real IRA became heavily penetrated with touts on both sides of the border, this was marked by their complete inability to operate and the fact every device they put together was either intercepted or failed to work.

However, what we are seeing now is an undoubted refinement of this organisation especially, and this new grouping Óglaigh na hÉireann which is also making its presence felt. The Continuity IRA are widely regarded as inept. The fact is that the former two groups are managing to build increasingly large explosive devices, and furthermore detonate them at key targets at key times. Similarly they have posed a big enough threat to prevent the cops acting as normal in many areas. The PSNI have generally been lucky not to have suffered even more casualties in the past two years. If they were so infiltrated by the Brits they would not allow this to happen, as what the Brits want more than anything else is a lack of any armed action as it would undermine the normalisation of British rule in the north of Ireland.

Still, all this makes no difference for Irish Republicanism as a viable ideology. As I reiterated earlier on in the thread, all they're offering is more of the same; isolation and a lack of answers.

FlutterinBantam

McNulty32 wrote: »

To those that tell us the days the army is off our streets have a look at this, a British Army patrol helicopter spotted Lisnaskea last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMszmrkizFc

They havent gone away you know

Who said the army has gone off the streets.?

As long as you have imbeciles and retards who want to blow up innocent people to assist their criminal activities, you need the forces.

get real buddy.

Hugo Drax

FTA69 wrote: »

Are they thoroughly infiltrated though? When the Real IRA split in 1997 they consisted of a small group of highly experienced and skilled operators, it was when they tried to play the numbers game and heavily recruit anyone who applied to join was the beginning of their undoing due to the low-calibre of people they were bringing in e.g. anti-social types and downright eejits. This was a problem suffered by the INLA in many places throughout its existence.

As a result of this the Real IRA became heavily penetrated with touts on both sides of the border, this was marked by their complete inability to operate and the fact every device they put together was either intercepted or failed to work.

However, what we are seeing now is an undoubted refinement of this organisation especially, and this new grouping Óglaigh na hÉireann which is also making its presence felt. The Continuity IRA are widely regarded as inept. The fact is that the former two groups are managing to build increasingly large explosive devices, and furthermore detonate them at key targets at key times. Similarly they have posed a big enough threat to prevent the cops acting as normal in many areas. The PSNI have generally been lucky not to have suffered even more casualties in the past two years. If they were so infiltrated by the Brits they would not allow this to happen, as what the Brits want more than anything else is a lack of any armed action as it would undermine the normalisation of British rule in the north of Ireland.

Still, all this makes no difference for Irish Republicanism as a viable ideology. As I reiterated earlier on in the thread, all they're offering is more of the same; isolation and a lack of answers.

I don't know, it just seems that in the ultra modern age of cyber surveillence etc. that every word out of the mouths of these guys should be known.

Maybe I've watched "The Bourne Ultimatum" too many times.

It just annoys me because I really enjoy visiting the North and find the hotels, food etc and the service to be outstanding and the people very friendly, after all this time and all they've been through they're entitled to normality, peace and to just get on with their lives without being harassed by extremists of what ever political hue.

getz

they have been infiltrated,there was a meeting this week between the heads of both police forces to update each other on the latest intelligence ,the one thing you do as a mole is to keep your head down and gather information,small bombs are not enough to blow your cover[hic],at any time both police forces could round up all the dissidents,but because of the still large ant-british element in the republic,it would set back the peace process,so its a keep quite and gather information ,for another day.

dreamer_ire

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Who said the army has gone off the streets.?

As long as you have imbeciles and retards who want to blow up innocent people to assist their criminal activities, you need the forces.

get real buddy.

Actually I disagree, bringing the Army back would be giving into the dissidents as this is exactly what they want. The Army are not trained to police, they are not trained to work with local communities. As it was once explained to me the Army should be in a red box behind glass which says in event of emergency break glass! Bringing the Army back would only heighten issues and you run the serious risk of alienating more people, young people in particular. This, in turn, works as a recruitment campaign for dissidents.

The Army do have a presence in NI, it is after all part of the UK, like it or not. In the same way that there are army bases in Scotland and Wales. They do not however patrol the streets and are not involved in any way in policing and maintaining law and order unless a specialist unit is required by PSNI.

I'm tempted to make a comment on the location of the helicopter but frankly I think it's a daft post that doesn't merit reply.

Denerick

Frankly that is idealist hogwash. When armed thugs intent on murder and chaos effectively foment rebellion on the streets, then it is perfectly legitimate for the sole arbiter of the use of force - ie, the state - to enforce the law and decent respect for life and property with the armed forces. There is no other justification for it. So long as these animals are intent on murder, the army is required to protect civilians in the face of these medieval minded fascist imbeciles.

FlutterinBantam

Denerick wrote: »

Frankly that is idealist hogwash. When armed thugs intent on murder and chaos effectively foment rebellion on the streets, then it is perfectly legitimate for the sole arbiter of the use of force - ie, the state - to enforce the law and decent respect for life and property with the armed forces. There is no other justification for it. So long as these animals are intent on murder, the army is required to protect civilians in the face of these medieval minded fascist imbeciles.

Totally correct, what the dissidents want is to target individual police officers who are probably married and living in the area.


These thugs are on army footing and use army tactics, witness the raking of NTH police station with automatic fire prior to the explosion.

Only way to combat them is fire with fire.

M60 slug between the ears usually punches some sense into them.

dreamer_ire

Denerick wrote: »

Frankly that is idealist hogwash. When armed thugs intent on murder and chaos effectively foment rebellion on the streets, then it is perfectly legitimate for the sole arbiter of the use of force - ie, the state - to enforce the law and decent respect for life and property with the armed forces. There is no other justification for it. So long as these animals are intent on murder, the army is required to protect civilians in the face of these medieval minded fascist imbeciles.

Ok, suppose the Army came in tomorrow, what will they do? Armed patrols on the streets of Belfast or any other town or city will not be able to deter the dissidents. The only way the Army can assist in the fight against these crminals is through intelligence, and I reckon they are doing that already. Inflitrating these groups is difficult at best as you have said.

The negatives of the Army patrolling far outweigh any benefits at the moment. If an Army patrol were to walk through any Nationalist area the first thing that will happen is the "recreational rioting", espicially on the longer summer nights. This gets kids involved in what is pitched as a "bit of sport" but it's the start.

I totally understand why they were needed during the height of the Troubles, but the current threat is different. It's not running battles that are being fought and if it ever got to that I'd fully support the Army being here. But I, like many living here, hope that the current situation does not get even close to that.

owenc

anglo_celt wrote: »

With the upsurge in republican violence within northern ireland. Are we to see a return to the troubled period once again. With the high unemployment in working class areas of Ireland as a whole I do believe this could be the last push for a United Ireland.It could also see a return of the feared UDA/UFF and civil war spreading into the Republic.This is aim of these men. Revolution. Many Republicans,North and South,and also in the United States agree with the Real IRA. Republiucan Sinn Fein see Mr Adam and his cronies as traitors to the Republican Movement by allowing themselves to become elected to the British Parliament and also taking seats in Dail Eireann. That is not according to Sinn Fein's Founder members that no man shall take a seat in Dail Eireann until Ireland was United. They are not going away ya know.

OMG this is so true about the americans.:rolleyes: LOL i have this third cousin in america who got there through his great grandfather who immigrated there in the 1890s and he was a very religious type presbyterian etc etc.. but LOL this american cousin of mines converted to catholisim and started to support celtic!!! LOL that is sooo true.. and me and my father are doing a family tree and they are presbyterians as far back as we can go and he is trying to find anything to make are family look like catholics and natives to here.. lol.. so true they really do turn into irish irish irish when they hit america.. if he was living here i bet yey it would kill him to do all that!:D

Denerick

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Ok, suppose the Army came in tomorrow, what will they do? Armed patrols on the streets of Belfast or any other town or city will not be able to deter the dissidents. The only way the Army can assist in the fight against these crminals is through intelligence, and I reckon they are doing that already. Inflitrating these groups is difficult at best as you have said.

The negatives of the Army patrolling far outweigh any benefits at the moment. If an Army patrol were to walk through any Nationalist area the first thing that will happen is the "recreational rioting", espicially on the longer summer nights. This gets kids involved in what is pitched as a "bit of sport" but it's the start.

I totally understand why they were needed during the height of the Troubles, but the current threat is different. It's not running battles that are being fought and if it ever got to that I'd fully support the Army being here. But I, like many living here, hope that the current situation does not get even close to that.

I'm not talking about full scale deployment in the north, militarily that would be a disaster, but I don't think the occasional military helicopter or the odd armed patrol will do much to alienate people.

dreamer_ire

Denerick wrote: »

I'm not talking about full scale deployment in the north, militarily that would be a disaster, but I don't think the occasional military helicopter or the odd armed patrol will do much to alienate people.

The choppers are called in as and when needed and rightly so. I don't think you'll get the odd armed patrol, it would be all or nothing IMO, and that's where the danger is. The Army are here, as they are entitled to be but tbh if you put them out of the streets you give the dissidents more targets.

The police are armed and have a specialised armed unit as well and can do everything the Army can do in terms of sheer muscle and presence. But the police talk to the locals and gain their trust. This, along with good intelligence, is what will defeat the criminals involved in the current threat.

But the reality is that it will never go away completely. It will come in peaks and troughs, irrespective of whether there will ever be a unitied Ireland. We just have to hope the troughs last much much longer than the peaks.

Provisionally

McNulty32 wrote: »

To those that tell us the days the army is off our streets have a look at this, a British Army patrol helicopter spotted Lisnaskea last week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMszmrkizFc

They havent gone away you know

First off, that's a video of somebody filming a computer screen.

Secondly, there are no British Patrols on the street. There haven't been for a long time.

Any British troops in the north (and 1 is too many IMO) are confined to barracks.

Overheal

McNulty32 wrote: »

Funny how you decry republicans are alcoholic criminals but when they show the capacity to be able to explode a bomb at MI5s HQ in Ireland you get a tad upset

You seem to be mistaking technical capability and immorality.

It wasn't me!

There's no call for the BA on the streets of NI at the moment. It's a policing situation, and needs to be maintained as such. The Royal Irish involvement at Holy Cross in 2001 are an example of the army acting as a practical aid to civil authority and the consequences can be seen in the provocation it caused. It needs to be kept in reserve, because it does escalate matters. While it was a brilliant use at the time, it did attract a lot of knob-ends from both sides. A good read on the army's place in NI is Rules of Engagement, by Colonel Tim Collins, a former CO of Ist Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment. He's a Belfast man, got a lot of interesting perspectives on where the future of peace in the North lies and the army's role there.

getz

provocation is only coming from a few scum from one part of the community,they only feel justified to murder because of their belief that people in the republic are backing them,we all know differently,but remember these people think they are doing it in your name

It wasn't me!

Actually, if you'll read the book, his experience was that they got an equally violent response from both communities. It was interesting, and certainly formative in my opinion on the north. It's something everyone should ask themselves as well: What's more important for Northern Ireland? The people governing it or a peaceful life for the people who live there? In my opinion everyone needs to swallow their nationalistic pride and let the people there get on with governing themselves.

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

But is it? surely the majority of people from NI are descended from Britain > Hence the connections and allegience to the island next door, (as opposed to an allegiance to the Republic) which at its inception was anything but a welcome place for returning troops in 1918. Add to that the very very strong Roman Catholic overtones at the cenception of the Southern State which would have been a total anathema to the very British Pro-Unionist people of the North.

I say the marriage between NI & Britain is much deeper that mere 'convienenience'.

The large amount of "native" surnames in the Unionist/Protestant community
would seem to dictate otherwise. There are many, many gaelic surnames in the highlands of Scotland should they push to partition Scotland and join Ireland based on a dubious ancestry?

Should the English push for unification with Saxony or all Germany?

The Irish people of the unionist tradition and their ancestors have been living in Ireland for well over 400m years. Previous to that some of their ancestors ma have came from Britain. How you can deduce from this that they are British and not Irish is mind boggling.

There was no Republic of Ireland in 1918.

The Irish free state had some Catholic overtones (95% catholic). This was a direct result of partition. Can you give me any exaple of where power was transferred by a minority to a majority where the minority (largely loyal to the occupying colonial power) was treated better?

Another result of partition was the one sided protestant dominated NI. This was the actual reason for partition.

Was there a 32 county free state created in 1921 it would have to have been secular. (which was the idea of the men and women of 1916)

I believe we would have a much stronger Ireland now had this been achieved. Dont you?

junder

McNulty32 wrote: »

Funny how you decry republicans are alcoholic criminals but when they show the capacity to be able to explode a bomb at MI5s HQ in Ireland you get a tad upset

Sorry to disapoint you but that bomb was no were near the mi5 building. The mi5 building is pretty much in the middle of holywood barracks I doubt it even had it's windows rattled. Only thing that bomb achived was the disruption to the lives of the army familys living on holywood namely the wifes and children of the soldiers based at holywood.

junder

Considering that a innocent person was used to drive the bomb to palace barracks would the apologists for the rira/ cira etc still be justifiying the armed campaign if that person had of been killed

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

The large amount of "native" surnames in the Unionist/Protestant community would seem to dictate otherwise. There are many, many gaelic surnames in the highlands of Scotland should they push to partition Scotland and join Ireland based on a dubious ancestry?

Trimble, Adams, Empey, Robinson, McGuinness, Storey, Wright, Campbell, Donaldson, Gildernew, Hermon, McCrae, Paisley, Wilson, Dodds, McCausland, Foster, Poots, McGimpsey, Ritchie, Hume . . . . . .

Quite a mix really, predominatly Ulster/Scots, with a few English names too! > wouldn't say any of them have 'dubious' ancestry.

T runner wrote: »

The Irish people of the unionist tradition and their ancestors have been living in Ireland for well over 400m years. Previous to that some of their ancestors may have came from Britain. How you can deduce from this that they are British and not Irish is mind boggling.

'They' themselves proclaim to be British, which most of them are, according to ancestry.

T runner wrote: »

The Irish free state had some Catholic overtones (95% catholic).

Yes indeed, hence the slogan of the time "Home Rule is Rome Rule".

T runner wrote: »

Was there a 32 county free state created in 1921 it would have to have been secular. (which was the idea of the men and women of 1916) I believe we would have a much stronger Ireland now had this been achieved. Dont you?

The problem being one million Brits up north who did not wish to break the Union. You can claim that Ireland would have been stronger (hindsight is a great thing), but the fact was, that the majority in the South wished to break away from the Union, while the Majority in the North did not wish to break away, mainly because of their British (Scots & English) heritage.