Irish Coursing Club offer €20,000 Reward

tomybhoy

Josie Tight Multimillionaire wrote: »

Helen,

All I'll say is you should avoid this subject or take the time and effort to get a balanced view on this. The Greyhound associations will certainly give a clean view of the "sport" while the animal right groups will claim all kinds of "torture". Don't be swayed by extreme groups on either side and watch for individuals driving their own agendas.

I agree with the sentiment in this post Helen as some people are full of mistruths when it comes to sport and nature.
I have put up the video for you to view yourself and stated you should attend a meeting before making up your mind on th sport of coursing.
I go Coursing which you have probably guessed, I dont have an agenda other than showing the sport as it is rather than what the anti human brigade try to depict it as, you will find these anti human driven groups are well versed in lies and innuendo, such groups are been investgated for strangling a hare as I write this post and are very much like the cults you hear about in America IMO, they will try to sway you with mistruths and then intimidate you until they get what they want which is no human animal interaction.

HELEN OF TROY

thank you all very much for helping me understand. i had no lectures today so i looked on youtube and i now know the difference between your two greyhound sports. of the 2 the dog courses one i find more interesting as do the dogs as it is not nature for dogs to chase something not live. in south africa animals chasing each other happens every day and no body sees any problem so why are people in your land not happy with this. we do not have any problems with people saying animals are not for chasing and we have lots more animals than you. i will be here for 2 more years and will look to go to the dog courses in sept when my parents come to visit and bring them with me to see your wonderful irish sport. perhaps one day we can have this sport in my country and i will tell my friends there to see it on youtube, i love ireland and the people sincerely, h o t

tomybhoy

I look forward to seeing you at a coursing meeting Helen, I have no doubt you will enjoy a day with real Irish people.

Discodog

Tarsna: You forget to mention that there are two potential Garda investigations. One regarding a possible break in & the second a possible breach of the Coursing regulations by the ICC.

The Hare collided with a Greyhound & this is nothing new.

The idea that Coursers were the guardians of UK Hares is ridiculous. Coursing was banned because the Labour party made it part of their election manifesto as they knew that the majority supported a ban.

I resent the suggestion that I have criminal friends. The Protection of Animals Act 1911 defines cruelty as amongst others "infuriating or terrifying any animal". Now you will say that the Hare is not terrified at being taken from the wild & then being chased by dogs.

You & I both know that Mink escaped & continue to escape from fur farms.

Stevoman: Why would you post a reward for information that you already have ?. The names of the Students & their statement are posted on the net. Even if the whole ICC story is true would there be an extradition & conviction for breaking into a Hare compound ?. I gave the ICC the names & the statement & I am not going to be 20,000 richer.

Scartman: "Abuse of animals to further a cause" like letting dogs terrify a wild animal for pleasure ?. As I stated before there are two allegations one against the students & one against the ICC but the ICC are not mentioning the second one.

Helen: Some people here & a lot of people in Europe believe that animal cruelty is wrong & that is why some oppose coursing. You are not dealing with animals in the wild & natural predation as in an animal hunting to eat but a wild animal being caught & then chased purely for entertainment.

fatmammycat

tomybhoy wrote: »

I look forward to seeing you at a coursing meeting Helen, I have no doubt you will enjoy a day with real Irish people.

*Laughs at 'real Irish people' *
Yeah right, a bunch of yahoos standing around a field betting on which dog can turn a terrified animal faster. If you lot are they real people of Ireland, Ireland is screwed.
Helen, coursing is not two dogs chasing a rabbit naturally, hares are native sensitive prey animals who are trapped, crated, man handled, chased and knocked around by muzzled dogs and manhandled again for the amusement of said yahoos. It is a cruel and outdated 'sport' and the really real people of Ireland want no part of it which is why you have vocal gombs from RISE playing the victimized card.
I have no animal rights agenda, I do not view animals as being on a par with humans, but neither am I cruel and stupid for the sake of being so. Pretending coursing is anything but an outdated cruelty is laughable. And I'm a country woman through and through.

ppink

This conversation is going round and round in circles with still nobody saying where that wire came from holding the hare, the wire that the dog on the street could see! It is very disturbing that people pro animal welfare could film this regardless of who put it there, and do nothing about it.

Does anyone have actual hard facts that the hare ( a prey animal?) is bothered by the chase. Is this not the set up of a prey animal? Are they not always watching their backs ready to run?

fatmammycat

Using that logic ppink how can we object to dog fighting? Or bull fighting, or badger baiting, or cockfighting? I mean two dogs are set up to fight right? They don't mind fighting. They will fight to the death, it's only 'natural' right? Except it's not natural, people are manipulating the situation for the purpose of betting and entertainment.
You are either against blood sports or you are not. A hare surprised out in the open is nothing like an animal manhandled, stressed, released, chased, and manhandled again. I am surprised I should have to point that out.

EGAR

I have read this thread with interest and since I cannot view videos with my O2 dongle-dingly thingy - I can't say which or whether.

However, I echo fatmammycats post in regards to coursing 100%.

scartman1

ppink wrote: »

This conversation is going round and round in circles with still nobody saying where that wire came from holding the hare, the wire that the dog on the street could see! It is very disturbing that people pro animal welfare could film this regardless of who put it there, and do nothing about it.

Does anyone have actual hard facts that the hare ( a prey animal?) is bothered by the chase. Is this not the set up of a prey animal? Are they not always watching their backs ready to run?

PPink
Unfortunately conversations debating this issue invariably go round and round, between the protagonists at either side of the debate. However the important thing to consider for the independent person viewing this debate on threads like this and other media, is the quality of the information being broadcast by either side to support their argument. That is why we must stick to the Facts and not lead ib mistruths.

The central tenet of this thread is to why the Anti Field sports lobby have used an animal so digracefully to further their cause, and perhaps the independent persons viewing can judge for themselves as to why this tactic was used.

Secondly, being ' Called a right bunch of Yahoos' and often worse is quite unfair b y those oppossed to field sports. I and the vast majority of people who partake in all field sports from Fishing, to Shooting, to Coursing, Rabbiting, Falconry, Fox Hunting etc reflect much of what society is composed from, which is by and large people who contribute positively to an honest and decent Ireland. They are no different to most people who go about their day to day business, that you would meet on the street of any town or on the terraces of any Football or Hurling game.

Finally, as for your point relating to the hare and proof if any exists that it is terrified before, during and after the course, I can not in a few sentences explain the mental make up of the hare as I am not a Biologist but I can tell you a hare, once it has rid itself of the greyhounds quickly returns to tranquil state and will often be seen strolling off to covert once the course is complete. ( a view of the video being debated in this thread will show how tranquil the hares are in the enclosure)
You make a point that they are always watching their back ready to run, this is in fact true, and indeed they have evolved to have 360 deg vision, so they don't even have to turn their head to watch their back. The hare is very well evolved in many aspects to allow it to survive as a prey species.

DePurpereWolf

ppink wrote: »

This conversation is going round and round in circles with still nobody saying where that wire came from holding the hare, the wire that the dog on the street could see! It is very disturbing that people pro animal welfare could film this regardless of who put it there, and do nothing about it.

Does anyone have actual hard facts that the hare ( a prey animal?) is bothered by the chase. Is this not the set up of a prey animal? Are they not always watching their backs ready to run?

Try wikipedia for a change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_coursing#Welfare_arguments_in_Irish-style_coursing

On topic, all arguments are already given on the first page of this topic. From then on it's just a circular conversation.

scartman1

fatmammycat wrote: »

Using that logic ppink how can we object to dog fighting? Or bull fighting, or badger baiting, or cockfighting? I mean two dogs are set up to fight right? They don't mind fighting. They will fight to the death, it's only 'natural' right? Except it's not natural, people are manipulating the situation for the purpose of betting and entertainment.
You are either against blood sports or you are not. A hare surprised out in the open is nothing like an animal manhandled, stressed, released, chased, and manhandled again. I am surprised I should have to point that out.

Fatmammycat
I believe that the illegal activities(bar Bull fighting which is not illegal) mentioned above are not acceptable in soceity as they are unsustainable and not natural.
True a dog will will fight another dog as would wolves do in the wild, but the difference being, wolves will rarely fight to the death, as the weaker wolf will recognise that if he was to continue fighting then he will die. Invariably he escapes to sanctuary. This necessary survival instinct has been bred out of Fighting dogs and man has set up an unnatural match betwen dogs that has only one outcome, injury or death.
Secondly the activities are not sustainable, by that i mean they contribute nothing to soceity. Field sports do in that the protagonists of the pastimes contribute above all other stakeholders in the preservation of our natural heritage. They are actively involved, hands on, controlling species such as foxes, grey crows, rats that are artificially supported thro the existance of man in large numbers, as their diet is largely supplemented by the consuming of human waste. This assists animals like hares, rabbits, ducks etc that are unable to benefit directly by their association to man.
In addition, they liase with landowners to curtail where possible agricultural practices that are detrimantal to animal conservation.
Field sports clubs also protect against poaching and unnecessary damage to environments and habitats during the construction of civil infastructure and so on.

I would ask you to consider these points and see if, with an open mind that , you could start to work with field sports organisations to protect the flora and fauna of this country for you and your children.

scartman1

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Try wikipedia for a change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_coursing#Welfare_arguments_in_Irish-style_coursing

On topic, all arguments are already given on the first page of this topic. From then on it's just a circular conversation.

Wikipedia can of course be read and evaluated as necessary knowing the parameters that wikipedia operate in. While it does deliver some knowledge, more knowledge can be determined from other sources, but no source is like seeing and understanding it first hand.

However, i do believe as you state that it is a circular argument between the protagonists. Many protagonists have their minds made up or have them closed due to a vested interest, however many in the public do not know the full arguments and the debate may enlighten them once the debate sticks to facts and not mistruths. That is why the scam video is so damaging to a proper debate.

HELEN OF TROY

i am sorry for asking questions but when as a person told me to do i read your belfast queens survey and what i do not know is why in your north area when you do not allow dog courses all the hares go and are found in your south area when all the dog courses are okay . why do you not stop the hares going from the north by putting up a large fence like we do in south africa to stop animals going to areas we do not want them in. i think you have done a very good thing to keep your hares happy by letting them live on nice land and given food by nice people and not shooting them as this is our main problem with poachers who hunt our elephants. thank you sincerely h o t

ppink

fatmammycat wrote: »

Using that logic ppink how can we object to dog fighting? Or bull fighting, or badger baiting, or cockfighting? I mean two dogs are set up to fight right? They don't mind fighting. They will fight to the death, it's only 'natural' right? Except it's not natural, people are manipulating the situation for the purpose of betting and entertainment.
You are either against blood sports or you are not. A hare surprised out in the open is nothing like an animal manhandled, stressed, released, chased, and manhandled again. I am surprised I should have to point that out.

how condascending for one who does not know me!

It is ridiculous to say that just because a person does not agree with breeding dogs to fight each other and pittting them against each other that then automatically without any thought should not agree with coursing which they know nothing about.
I believe in using my own head and questioning with my own brain not simply following those who say it is wrong.....or right!
Where are the facts to show the hares are stressed? One has to work with facts.
Bull fighting........the bulls have spears driven into them until they die....do the hares?

tomybhoy

HELEN OF TROY wrote: »

i am sorry for asking questions but when as a person told me to do i read your belfast queens survey and what i do not know is why in your north area when you do not allow dog courses all the hares go and are found in your south area when all the dog courses are okay . why do you not stop the hares going from the north by putting up a large fence like we do in south africa to stop animals going to areas we do not want them in. i think you have done a very good thing to keep your hares happy by letting them live on nice land and given food by nice people and not shooting them as this is our main problem with poachers who hunt our elephants. thank you sincerely h o t

Helen,
The hares do not migrate from the north to the south, the reason for the hares demise in the north is due to the ban on coursing which has resulted in the hunting of hares becoming unregulated which has allowed poachers to decend on areas with packs of dogs to hunt hares until death.
The anti human animal rights activists camapigned for this ban on coursing and are directly responsible for the hare population in the north being cut in half.
As the antis sit at home watching tv thinking of the next set of lies to spread it is the farmers in the south who are generally coursing people who look after the hares ensuring that no hunting takes place and that the hares are well fed, innoculated and tagged.
Of the hares caught last season for coursing there were 147 casualities which could not be returned to the wild, this is a fraction of 1% of the overall hare population in the South, in the same time you would expect a far greater number to die if they were left in the wild.
Road Kill of hares is a massive problem but is ignored by the antis, habe a look on any motorway in ireland and you will see dead hares in the middle of the road, look at the concrete barrier in the middle of the road and it is easy to understand why road kill is such an issue as both sides of the motorway allow access to wildlife on to the roads but the barrier in the middle stops them going from one side to the other, the wildlife which get on to the road generally get knocked down for this reason.

fatmammycat

scartman1 wrote: »

Fatmammycat
I believe that the illegal activities(bar Bull fighting which is not illegal) mentioned above are not acceptable in soceity as they are unsustainable and not natural.
True a dog will will fight another dog as would wolves do in the wild, but the difference being, wolves will rarely fight to the death, as the weaker wolf will recognise that if he was to continue fighting then he will die. Invariably he escapes to sanctuary. This necessary survival instinct has been bred out of Fighting dogs and man has set up an unnatural match betwen dogs that has only one outcome, injury or death.
Secondly the activities are not sustainable, by that i mean they contribute nothing to soceity. Field sports do in that the protagonists of the pastimes contribute above all other stakeholders in the preservation of our natural heritage. They are actively involved, hands on, controlling species such as foxes, grey crows, rats that are artificially supported thro the existance of man in large numbers, as their diet is largely supplemented by the consuming of human waste. This assists animals like hares, rabbits, ducks etc that are unable to benefit directly by their association to man.
In addition, they liase with landowners to curtail where possible agricultural practices that are detrimantal to animal conservation.
Field sports clubs also protect against poaching and unnecessary damage to environments and habitats during the construction of civil infastructure and so on.

I would ask you to consider these points and see if, with an open mind that , you could start to work with field sports organisations to protect the flora and fauna of this country for you and your children.

Let's stop with the wolves thing, it wasn't the point I meant and I think you know that. Wolves are not dogs, nor behave like dogs. So using their behaviour as a guideline is like me using zebras to describe the behaviour of TB steeple chasers.

As a passionate horse lover I hunted as a youth, I rode to hounds for a season as soon as I was allowed to do so. What I saw out hunting finished me with blood sports for life. I rode point-to point after that and am well versed in flora and fauna of the Irish countryside. My father owned a large amount of farmland, where despite numerous signs, yahoos poached, lamped and hunted illegally, my best friend's father bred ferrets to catch rabbits, everyone around me owned a shot gun and killed crows and magpies and vermin of all stripes.
But let us move the goalpsts back to where they were, NONE of this has a thing to do with coursing, which is a outdated throw back to a bygone era, a time when we compassionate Irish didn't give a hoot about the flora and fauna of this country. There are ample ways to continue the conservation of the natural fauna of Ireland without resorting to trapping and using nervous prey animals as live bait for the cheering minority.
I also remember when the dogs were not muzzled. What happend to the grand compassion of the noble courser then? Oh that's right, there was none and public opinion ground that particular 'tradition' out. As will the natural revulsion for current coursing set up.
You can dress up coursing any way you like, and as a supporter naturally you will, it matters not to me, but don't think for a second I do not know of what I speak or I am some townie with nary a clue to the countryside.
If you want to race hounds, do so at a track with a mechanical lure. Don't use the misery of another animal to justify a sport you enjoy.

tomybhoy

More outlandish unverifable garbage.

I will try one like that, I was out recently and saw animal activists strangle a hare, they filmed this hare dying and then posted it on the internet.
On my way home I saw an animal activist with a greyhound in a headlock while another activist cut its ears off to cheering from all the other animal activists that had gathered to watch the sacrifice......

How easy it is to make up stories and then push them as being true........the pity is that the hare strangulation is under Garda investigation!

EGAR

Merlin, ex-courser after a 7 day treatment at the vets, he was in such bad shape, the vet thought he wouldn't make it, he lost most of his tail as it was balloned up due to untreated infection, had mange and was crawling with fleas:



It took a long 12 months to get him ready for a home:



or Molly



Found wandering emaciated and disoriented on the Athenry to Loughrea road by kind people who brought her to me. She was in such a bad state that she remained with me for 6 months before she went to her new home.

Morag, surrendered by a racing syndicate, she arrived in a sheep trailer as she was *a dirty old yoke*. She came just in time as she suffered from Pyometra and required an emergency spay:




Those are just a recent ones and as I already said: I am not even a GH rescue!!

fatmammycat

tomybhoy wrote: »

More outlandish unverifable garbage.

I will try one like that, I was out recently and saw animal activists strangle a hare, they filmed this hare dying and then posted it on the internet.
On my way home I saw an animal activist with a greyhound in a headlock while another activist cut its ears off to cheering from all the other animal activists that had gathered to watch the sacrifice......

How easy it is to make up stories and then push them as being true........the pity is that the hare strangulation is under Garda investigation!

What are you talking about? You're so eager to dismiss everyone's experience you are no longer making a lick of sense. What is unverifiable? The fact that I am from the country? That greyhounds USED to be unmuzzled? That wolves are not in fact dogs? That shooting vermin has nothing to do with coursing? That there is an overpopulation of greyhounds in this country? That EGAR has not had experience of abandoned greyhounds? What are you railing against exactly?

I wish coursing people could just admit they like coursing and that their like of coursing is more important to them than the wellbeing of Irish hares. I'd have a modicum of respect for that level of honesty
However pretending hares don't mind being chased ( especially when they are flung up in the air or ground into the grass my dogs, wot larks for them) or that coursing is some noble rural pastime born out of deep abiding care and love for the countryside is transparently ridiculous. NO animal likes to be tormented or abused. No wild animal enjoys being handled by humans or chased by dogs. It is stressful for them and downright cruel of us to subject them to it for sport. Right tomybohy?? Or it that beyond your verifiable tolerance levels too?

Anyway, it is the weekend, I've said what I had to say on the subject. No doubt someone will come on and tell me the damned hares are now voting to be included in coursing next.

tomybhoy

Pure and simple hogwash, coursing is about testing dogs speed and stamina against one another in pursuit of a hare, the dogs are muzzled and if you knew anything about coursing you would know the Hare is of paramount importance to the coursing community.
It is the corsing community that preserve their habitat and if you ever go to a coursing meeting and God Forbid a hare gets caught by the muzzled dogs, watch and listen very carefully to the flankers and the crowd, the aim of coursing is not to kill the hare!
Your experience as a child are yours alone and should not be used against the Coursing community, maybe its the company you keep.
The misery of a Hare, total and utter emotive BS imo.

scartman1

fatmammycat wrote: »

Let's stop with the wolves thing, it wasn't the point I meant and I think you know that. Wolves are not dogs, nor behave like dogs. So using their behaviour as a guideline is like me using zebras to describe the behaviour of TB steeple chasers.

As a passionate horse lover I hunted as a youth, I rode to hounds for a season as soon as I was allowed to do so. What I saw out hunting finished me with blood sports for life. I rode point-to point after that and am well versed in flora and fauna of the Irish countryside. My father owned a large amount of farmland, where despite numerous signs, yahoos poached, lamped and hunted illegally, my best friend's father bred ferrets to catch rabbits, everyone around me owned a shot gun and killed crows and magpies and vermin of all stripes.
But let us move the goalpsts back to where they were, NONE of this has a thing to do with coursing, which is a outdated throw back to a bygone era, a time when we compassionate Irish didn't give a hoot about the flora and fauna of this country. There are ample ways to continue the conservation of the natural fauna of Ireland without resorting to trapping and using nervous prey animals as live bait for the cheering minority.
I also remember when the dogs were not muzzled. What happend to the grand compassion of the noble courser then? Oh that's right, there was none and public opinion ground that particular 'tradition' out. As will the natural revulsion for current coursing set up.
You can dress up coursing any way you like, and as a supporter naturally you will, it matters not to me, but don't think for a second I do not know of what I speak or I am some townie with nary a clue to the countryside.
If you want to race hounds, do so at a track with a mechanical lure. Don't use the misery of another animal to justify a sport you enjoy.

Fatmammycat
While I respect your opinion and your right to express it, would you say that you would want field sports outlawed. What about your neighbour with his ferret and your friends that shot a few magpies and crows. What about the friends of your youth that you fox hunted with. Should we ban these activities?
It is important to be consistent when making an argument, and selective a la carte approach is not defensible. I would be interested in your views as a whole.

I also thiink that you do a disservice to field sports enthusiasts by saying that they do not give a hoot , in your own words, to the environment.
If you know something about the countryside you will know that agriculture and how it is practiced has a huge impact on the flora and fauna, and field sports contribute enormously to the counteract the negative impacts that farming has.
Muzzling of the Greyhounds significantly reduces the likelihood of a kill and it is unfair to class it as a blood sport as a result.

Would you care to work with a field sport organisation and actively contribute to ensuring that we do have a flora and fauna for the future?.

Would it be your preference to have them banned and leave nature look after itself, or do you have an alternative to replacing the thousands of volunteers that work through their clubs through out the year ensuring that we have biodiversification in our environment?.

I am asking this in a constructive debate as the actions that we take when these decisions are made in the future will have a significant effect on our countryside.

scartman1

Egar
you are obviously doing fantastic work. Are you a charity or do you finance it yourself? It must be expensive to run an operation like this.

HELEN OF TROY

Iin my country we see many starving dogs on streets but no kind lady like one my friend from usa give money and dog to in dublin. the lady said she not get enough money from your parliament to keep all her dogs needs lot more. in south africa people to poor to pay for pets to be put sleep so they wander on streets hungry in some areas. your pets and hares have nice people to feed them well but i not understand video by people who not want hunting.why tie hare by neck and kill . this is not good sport. tonight i go to see 6 dog races in dublin . thanking you h o t

Discodog

scartman1 wrote: »

That is why we must stick to the Facts and not lead ib mistruths.

The central tenet of this thread is to why the Anti Field sports lobby have used an animal so digracefully to further their cause, and perhaps the independent persons viewing can judge for themselves as to why this tactic was used.

How can you say that we must stick to facts & then quote something as fact when it is totally unproved. No one knows who or if anyone interfered with a Hare & the matter is in the hands of the Gardai.

tomybhoy

The Tippereary Gardai are tenacious Discodog, never seen anything like them when they get their teeth into something.

Discodog

That's a shame as the video was sent direct to the Commissioner in Dublin !.

tomybhoy

The only investigation being carried out is by the Gardai in Tippereary.

It wasn't me!

Discodog wrote: »

That's a shame as the video was sent direct to the Commissioner in Dublin !.

Who will bounce it back to the local Gardai for investigation.

star-pants

Can we have less accusations of people without profound evidence

Discodog

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Who will bounce it back to the local Gardai for investigation.

Would the local Gardai have the facilities to do a forensic examination of the video or the animal expertise to assess if the Hare's behaviour was conducive with being strangled ?. If any case was proven would the local Gardai process a possible extradition if the alleged perpetrators were outside the State ?.