French rugby Updates : Le café du Rugby.

yimrsg

thomond2006 wrote: »

Game over. Can't believe Montpellier went for the corner.

Same final as last year so!

BT sports commentators said that a penalty wouldn't help them as they'd lose on count back if the scores finished level, they had to go for the corner and for the try.

iroced

Another defeat against our bete noire...

We showed such inexperience and naivety in the important moments, it's infuriating!

iroced

yimrsg wrote: »

BT sports commentators said that a penalty wouldn't help them as they'd lose on count back if the scores finished level, they had to go for the corner and for the try.

count what ?


Think it would have gone to the penalty shootout if the game finished level. Like the Agen-Béziers final back in the days.

Davei141

matthew8 wrote: »

That game was at a neutral venue.

Oh sorry I just thought with Montpellier being favourites it was down to home advantage.

vienne86

Just arrived at the rds and read this result. Montpellier must be hopping. Where I left home at full time I reckoned they would win it. So we have a repeat of last year's final.

yimrsg

iroced wrote: »

count what ?


Think it would have gone to the penalty shootout if the game finished level. Like the Agen-Béziers final back in the days.

The commentators were saying that because Castres got more points from penalties they would win in the event of a tie on the scoreboard.

iroced

yimrsg wrote: »

The commentators were saying that because Castres got more points from penalties they would win in the event of a tie on the scoreboard.

Right. Not what the Canal + commentators said. Don't know who's correct then...

Davei141 wrote: »

Oh sorry I just thought with Montpellier being favourites it was down to home advantage.

Nothing personal mate but that really starts to annoy me. Where the hell this hype comes from? We have never won anything and have a close to zero top level experience. Having a couple of "star" players never ever ever guaranteed victory in any team sports. It's the collective history that the team develops at top level that builds the basement of victory. Toulon is a good example. They even went down to the Pro D2 while starting to build their team. It takes time to climb to the top.

Before this game, as I said, Castres were clear favourites. More experience at this level. Psychological advantage (they already beat us twice (out of 3 times) in the play off and twice this year).

I know it's only a detail but this fake hype starts to be ridiculous. It was the same before the Ulster game. And people were surprised we lost. I don't get it. I just can't get it.

Davei141

iroced wrote: »

Right. Not what the Canal + commentators said. Don't know who's correct then...




Nothing personal mate but that really starts to annoy me. Where the hell this hype comes from? We have never won anything and have a close to zero top level experience. Having a couple of "star" players never ever ever guaranteed victory in any team sports. It's the collective history that the team develops at top level that builds the basement of victory. Toulon is a good example. They even went down to the Pro D2 while starting to build their team. It takes time to climb to the top.

Before this game, as I said, Castres were clear favourites. More experience at this level. Psychological advantage (they already beat us twice (out of 3 times) in the play off and twice this year).

I know it's only a detail but this fake hype starts to be ridiculous. It was the same before the Ulster game. And people were surprised we lost. I don't get it. I just can't get it.

Favourites in the bookies. I was surprised they were favourites too!

thomond2006

The respective league positions of the sides is enough to justify Montpellier as slight favourites. Plus the extra week of rest.

iroced

thomond2006 wrote: »

The respective league positions of the sides is enough to justify Montpellier as slight favourites. Plus the extra week of rest.

I understand that but to me it sounds like an outside "opinion" with no regards to the context of this game and the combined histories of these 2 teams.

For all the reasons I stated in my previous post, Castres were clear favourites to me (e.g. as were Ulster at the start of the season). In the Top 14, the league positions are no guarantee with the current system.

vienne86

I only saw the first 80 minutes, and would have put money on Montpellier to win this from what I saw, but also they have been going well in the last couple of months. Was very suprised to read this result. So we have a repeat of last year's final.

matthew8

You have to go on league form and Montpellier's was far better. Castres had one good knockout game after a poor end to the season. Montpellier had won their last game 44-10 against Racing. There was nothing between the teams over 80. We saw how much tradition and history mattered when Toulouse got knocked out by Racing.

Realistically Toulon should win the final. They've really been a great side recently. Castres are available at 2/1 for the final

thomond2006

Toulon have to learn from last year and not burn out the team. Bringing in a few of their benchers won't weaken them.

iroced

matthew8 wrote: »

You have to go on league form and Montpellier's was far better. Castres had one good knockout game after a poor end to the season. Montpellier had won their last game 44-10 against Racing. There was nothing between the teams over 80. We saw how much tradition and history mattered when Toulouse got knocked out by Racing.

I don't agree. You don't have to go on league form. You may go if you want. But what I'm trying to stress on here for a while is the huge difference in terms of pressure and handling of the event between a regular season game and a key game (finals, europe, international, etc...).

What is Montpellier experience of these games? In terms of finals, a 1 pt win in Castres in a game where Teulet missed a huge amount of kicks, Teulet who was the best scorer of the Top 14 back then. Then a 1 pt win in Marseille vs Racing, so basically at home for us. With Wisniewski missing a more than kickable drop-goal at the last min.
A close defeat in the final vs Toulouse where Skrela misskicked everything and Toulouse went ahead thanks to their stronger bench.
After that, 2 similar defeats in Castres. Discipline cost us. Inability to adapt our game to the opposition cost us too. Unefficiency cost us. The way we handled the event cost us.

Yesterday I've seen again the same mistakes which show me that we are not yet ready for that level. If you look back on our season and I did stress that as early as our game home to Ulster, everytime we played a vital game, we had troubles, we could not impose our game to the opposition. We did progress on our efficiency (the amount of BPs we got proves that). There was our win in Toulouse. But I'd dare to say it was the good period to take on them. And you mentionned our huge win home to Racing. I thought that was it. That we had passed the hurdle. But in the end. If you think about it, what was the real pressure on this game? Playing a home quarter had we lost? Not so huge in the end.

The real pressure was yesterday. And we did not play up to our best level. On the other hand, Castres managed their game very well. They looked calm, confident, sure of their strength, sure of their game. We did not. From the first seconds of the game with Ranger's clumsiness we showed that we were not fully ready yet. Another example. When we went ahead for the first time 15-20 min to the end. On the restart, we made a stupid obstruction giving 3 pts to Kockott to bring Castres level immediately. Castres, which lead the whole game, had no time to (at least start to) doubt. And in the extra time there is this penalty we didn't kick to be back level.

I understand the temptation to look at the stats. But you can make the stats say pretty much what you want them to say. And I think you can't only base your opinion of a semi-final game on teh regular season stats.

Castres were clear underdogs in Clermont. I'd never get how they could have been yesterday. Everyone seems to forget they are still the defending champion after all! Granted they'll be underdogs in the final but Toulon would need to be at their best. Castres are so good at frustrating the opposition. I think from the other side of the seas you may get a biased view because Castres pretty much never bothered in Europe. But they're not the same "animal" in the Top 14.

matthew8

I think you're being overly negative. Montpellier were every bit as good as Castres and could have drawn over the 100 minutes if it suited them. I thought they were a bit better if anything and will be annoyed the star player didn't show up and they gave away a really soft try. The team never panicked and played some very nice stuff. 3-13 and 10-16 were tough spots but they dealt with those situations perfectly well.

iroced

Yeah I may place my expectations too high but we played the final 3 years ago and we can't pass that hurdle. My main point though is that we lack experience at this level and I don't understand the favourite status many wish to give us. Actually I know one of the reason that leads to this. We play a lively attacking rugby that many want to see succeed. Castres is the opposite (though it's not as bad now as under the Labit-Travers era). There were actually papers this morning about the "fatality" to play a "restrictive" gamestyle to win...

I agree with you that we came back into the game, we didn't panick when we went 10 pts behind. But I don't forget that Castres could have well scored 2 more tries. And the action at the end of the first half is a good summary in my view. We will to play sometimes in situations where you'd better kick the ball away and put ourself in a difficult situation but managed to defend extraordinary well behind (Berard played magnificently his 1 against 2). There is talent. There is quality. But we should never put ourself in those situations.

The stupid obstruction right after we went ahead for the first time is another example. The misunderstanding about the last penalty ditto. We thought (because the stadium speaker said it at the end of the regular time) Castres would win in case of a draw (thanks to more penalty kicks during regular time - don't know where that rule could come from -), that's why we didn't take the points. No one knew the rule. Even the ref. Trinh-Duc asked him and he couldn't answer. Galthié didn't know it either. But in the end it looks like we/they were all wrong and it would have gone into the penalty shootout. Can't believe no one in our staff knew or checked that rule beforehand... You see that's another example of our lack of experience at this level, I'm harsh but I love my team and I/we can't satisfy ourself with a pleasant gamestyle and a top 2 finish.

In fairness Galthié and our players are as tough as me => http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Galthie-je-suis-assomme/466119. Galthié said he's shocked. He doesn't know if the season is good or not. Trinh Duc pretty much said the same thing. It'll be hard to swallow, even personally. I think they realised they were really close but when they had the opportunity to put Castres head down they failed and they know it (Galthié regretted it, we were ahead only 1 min at the end of a dominating period for us which basically ended there).

matthew8

So apparently it would've gone to penalties yesterday and none of the stadium announcer, Fabien Galthie, the players or the referee knew the rules. That is very poor.

iroced

matthew8 wrote: »

So apparently it would've gone to penalties yesterday and none of the stadium announcer, Fabien Galthie, the players or the referee knew the rules. That is very poor.

Yeah ... Well according to L'Équipe anyway.

matthew8

I went on the lnr website and I couldn't find anything. That's pretty poor too. The aviva premiership on the other hand made it clear, posting an article during the week: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/31711.php#.U3jnSIFdVwo

Only consolation for Montpellier is Castres would have probably won anyway if it was a 3 kicker shootout, with 3 capable kickers (Bai, Kirkpatrick, Kockott) to Montpellier's 2 (Trinh-Duc, Paillaugue)

iroced

matthew8 wrote: »

I went on the lnr website and I couldn't find anything. That's pretty poor too. The aviva premiership on the other hand made it clear, posting an article during the week: http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/31711.php#.U3jnSIFdVwo

Only consolation for Montpellier is Castres would have probably won anyway if it was a 3 kicker shootout, with 3 capable kickers (Bai, Kirkpatrick, Kockott) to Montpellier's 2 (Trinh-Duc, Paillaugue)

Yeah. Me neither. Just L'Equipe who were saying during the game and in their post-match analyses that it would have gone into a penalty shootout. That was also what the Canal + live commentators said. They referred to the Agen-Béziers final which ended that way back in the days with Béziers winning the place kick competition.
In fairness I don't know where this "new" rule comes from. People mentionned here that the Irish commentators were talking about it. Where did they hear from it? In France it seems everything converges to the stadium speaker... which sounds more and more like a farce :rolleyes:.

Ah well we could have won that 5 m scrum and there would be no debate. We have to acknowledge Castres defensive strength throughout the whole game and wish them good luck for the final.

In terms of kicker, I think we could have competed with the entrance of Floch though. That said you could also add Talès to Castres list.

thomond2006

Agen and La Rochelle will be in the Top14 promotion final.

yimrsg

I was listening to the BT commentators saying that a penalty wasn't enough for Montpellier and they'd lose on count back on penalties scored. They seemed to say that the argument between the bench and the players was because the players on the field knew that a penalty wasn't enough and they had to go for a try and they had to persuade the bench. Though it could be that they were thinking that the kick from near the touchline wasn't a cert and didn't want to go for a shootout.

thomond2006

Toulouse have sacked their doctor and physio according to Martin Gillingham. I wonder why...

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

Toulouse have sacked their doctor and physio according to Martin Gillingham. I wonder why...

Hmmm.... Noves better not escape punishment. The doctors should have put their foot down but he should never have been putting them under pressure like that. He is basically their employer - he put them in a very awkward position.

iroced

Eddie O'Sullivan takes on the Biarritz job => http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/-un-challenge-excitant/466903. More "Irish" into French rugby .

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

Agen and La Rochelle will be in the Top14 promotion final.

When does this get played?

pickarooney

Sunday at 15.00 CET in Bordeaux.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Agen and La Rochelle will be in the Top14 promotion final.

La Rochelle leading 21-3 at the break

umop.episdn

phog wrote: »

La Rochelle leading 21-3 at the break

Munster have often travelled over to La Rochelle for a preseason game, wonder if there's one on this summer?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

La Rochelle leading 21-3 at the break

Full house in the Chaban Delmas for it!

Agen got a try but the conversion was missed. 9 down with 7 minutes to go.

umop.episdn wrote: »

Munster have often travelled over to La Rochelle for a preseason game, wonder if there's one on this summer?

We're playing Glaws and LI like last year, no word about an away match.

thomond2006

Toulon:

15 Delon Armitage, 14 Drew Mitchell, 13 Mathieu Bastareaud, 12 Matt Giteau, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Jonny Wilkinson, 9 Sebastien Tillous Borde,
8 Steffon Armitage, 7 Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe, 6 Juan Smith, 5 Ali Williams, 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 Carl Hayman, 2 Craig Burden, 1 Xavier Chiocci.

Replacements: 16 Jean charles Orioli, 17 Alexandre Menini, 18 Jocelino Suta , 19 Virgile Bruni, 20 Danie Rossouw, 21 Maxime Mermoz , 22 Michael Claassens, 23 Martin Castrogiovanni

Castres:

15 Brice Dulin, 14 Max Evans, 13 Romain Cabannes, 12 Remi Lamerat, 11 Remy Grosso , 10 Remi Tales, 9 Rory Kockott, 8 Antonie Claassen, 7 Yannick Caballero, 6 Piula Faasalele, 5 Rodrigo Capo Ortega, 4 Richie Gray, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Brice Mach, 1 Saimone Taumoepeau.

Replacements: 16 Mathieu Bonello, 17 Yannick Forestier, 18 Christophe Samson, 19 Jan Bornman, 20 Cedric Garcia, 21 Seremaia Bai, 22 Daniel Kirkpatrick, 23 Mihaita Lazar.

So it's going to be a Top14-European double for Toulon or a Top14 double for Castres! Castres have the extra week of rest coming into this and Toulon have named virtually the same side in the last three weeks.

errlloyd

First half clashes with rabo rigjt?

thomond2006

errlloyd wrote: »

First half clashes with rabo rigjt?

Rabo starts at 6:15pm, Top14 is at 8pm. So I think it will start just as the Rabo finishes.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rabo starts at 6:15pm, Top14 is at 8pm. So I think it will start just as the Rabo finishes.

8pm local time I think. I am hopefully wrong.

matthew8

errlloyd wrote: »

First half clashes with rabo rigjt?

No, it starts at 8, when the rabo should be just about over.

I'd really like to see Castres win this one, aside from my having money on them. They've been much more enterprising this year and their players are a lot easier to warm to than Toulon's. The selection of Taumoepeau at loosehead confuses me for Castres. They have a French international in Forestier and a top Romanian in Lazar, but hopefully the staff know what they're doing. Gray is the player I'd worry about especially there, he could be blown out of the water physically.

Hopefully Toulon's age profile will tell like last year.

ScrubsfanChris

Just missed the Castres try, it was good apparently.

7-3 to Castres

Grandpa Hassan

What a finish for JW. British national anthem being played in the stadium.

pickarooney

Good start to the game but it soon petered out as a contest as Toulon, python like, slowly suffocated yet another opponent on their impressive if uninspiring crawl to the double. Castres repeatedly made a dog's dinner of the few scraps thrown their way and the second half was, like so many others this year, a non event.

Judgement Day

Missed the last 10 minutes due to fecking boxing. Final score please?

Swan Curry

18-10 to Toulon

thomond2006

Big blow today for Stade Francais and France: Fullback Hugo Bonneval has ruptured an ACL and will be out for nine months. SF let Bonneval's backup Jerome Porical go to Lyon so now they are short.

Flashdean

thomond2006 wrote: »

Big blow today for Stade Francais and France: Fullback Hugo Bonneval has ruptured an ACL and will be out for nine months. SF let Bonneval's backup Jerome Porical go to Lyon so now they are short.

Paul Williams and Richard Kingi can both be adequate cover in that position... Also Santiago Cordero has been heavily linked this summer...

Winters

More establishment and JIFF rule bashing by the privateers in the French media today.

Suffice to say, some people just don't like rules do they?

blackdog1

Can Armitage play for france now under the new loophole created by the Olympic committee? .

blackdog1

blackdog1 wrote: »

Can Armitage play for france now under the new loophole created by the Olympic committee? .

Certainly not right away, I think there's a couple of conditions plus an 18 month time period to be met.

P_1

blackdog1 wrote: »

Can Armitage play for france now under the new loophole created by the Olympic committee? .

What's this loophole?

Taco Corp

P_1 wrote: »

What's this loophole?

http://ur7s.com/news/ben-ryan-goes-inside-olympic-rugby-sevens-and-talks-qualification-eligibility-player-availability-and-just-about-everything-you-need-to-know-

haven't read it all but i believe this article covers it

blackdog1

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

http://ur7s.com/news/ben-ryan-goes-inside-olympic-rugby-sevens-and-talks-qualification-eligibility-player-availability-and-just-about-everything-you-need-to-know-

haven't read it all but i believe this article covers it

Looks like he can play straight away according to that if he has a french passport as he hasn't played for England for over 18 months

thomond2006

If Armitage became eligible for France then he'd be a starting player immediately. He's under a long term contract (till 2017) with Toulon anyway so a move back to England soon isn't really an option unless a club/RFU is willing to put up a transfer fee.

miroslavklose

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

http://ur7s.com/news/ben-ryan-goes-inside-olympic-rugby-sevens-and-talks-qualification-eligibility-player-availability-and-just-about-everything-you-need-to-know-

haven't read it all but i believe this article covers it

I'm 99% sure that's nonsense. Somebody has gotten it into their head it's a loophole, but even if it is there, the IRB would close it before it can be used.